If you guys are looking at this as anything else but a 3 mana: draw a card, gain 3 life, ramp, you're looking at it wrong. This card is absurdly powerful. Clearly already underrated.
I don't think Oko will get banned in Modern (and I'm speaking as a Modern player). He's too vulnerable to immediate hard removal like Assassin's Trophy and Abrupt Decay (he makes a Food token immediately quite often), the counterspells and targeted discard in Modern nab him quickly and harshly enough (heck, Mystical Dispute has risen in maindecks)
Perhaps I am missing something here, but the cards you mention are also legal in Pioneer so why were Pioneer decks having such a difficult time against this particular planeswalker? Trying to use Thoughtseize and Negate were not good enough against other decks? Caveat: I have not played a game of MtG in about a year so there may be nuances I am missing.
Lightning Bolt and Inquisitions are huge reasons why. Also modern is significantly faster than pioneer. Most modern decks don't care about Oko. The only deck that plays it is Urza and that deck doesn't even need to.
10/4/2019 If you cast a card “without paying its mana cost,” you can’t choose to cast it for any alternative costs. You can, however, pay additional costs. If the card has any mandatory additional costs (such as that of Fling), you must pay those to cast the card.
10/4/2019 If an effect says that you may cast a card that you couldn’t otherwise cast if you pay an alternative cost (such as the flashback keyword), you have to pay that alternative cost if you use that permission to cast the card. You can’t choose to cast it but cast it without paying its mana cost.
again, no where does this say you can't cast cards from your yard. i dont see how you can't cast elspeth from the yard.
Was Copter really that ubiquitous? A lot of the decks were playing it but it was expected because it is a good card. It was not warping the meta like the other two and format where people are not required to play answers can easily turn into solitaire.
The problem with copter is that it is better than literally any other 2 drop in the format. Which means that it pushes a ton of cards out. A 2 mana 3/3 flyer that loots is insane. There are very few good answers to it. Lightning bolt not existing is a big reason why. You either trade at parity, or it costs you more to kill it, and that's if they didn't attack with it. It's an absurd card for a format with very little 1 mana removal spells (people were playing that 1 black exile target colorless creature in their sideboard...that card is insanely narrow...but copter...).
As for Marvel, I just don't see it. It's good, but not good enough to warrant a ban. Energy basically is unplayable right now.
Was Field really THAT bad? I have played a bunch of paper tournaments and no one was playing it. I have seen a ton of red based decks. Most were aggro but I have seen some Phoenix decks
Yes, it was. I played BG Fod and it's probably one of the best decks i have ever played in my life. I felt unbeatable. Phoenix was a bit of a joke too since they really can't beat this deck, no matter how well they draw. It was the format's best deck by a landslide simply because it could adapt to anything without affecting it's win-con.
Thopter was the format's best card too. That had to go as there really wasn't any good answers to it and it was just too damn efficient at what it does. If only it was a 1/1, then it'd have been fine.
All the right cards have been banned so far. Phoenix will regain some real estate but this opens up the format like crazy. Control is actually playable now!
I feel like this is confirmation that the higher ups at WotC had no faith in this set's ability to sell based off of a combination of its themes, setting and lack of a Jacetice League member, so they relied on the tried and true method of adding a couple pushed cards to the set to ensure it sold well. Play Design had been doing such a great job, this is really the only reason I can think of for why this set has experienced so many problems.
I mean everyone immediately knew Oko was going to be oppressively good. There is no way Play Design missed that, or let it slip through the cracks.
The more I read about play design and the more I think a lot of people's hate is super misguided. Play design DOES NOT design cards with the purpose of sales. That is NOT their role. I don't believe for a second that that's their main goal when designing cards.
Reading the last article about play design really helps puts things in perspective, in my opinion. What's been happening is that they have actually powered down standard quite a bit but have pushed a few cards really far in one direction. So that's why some of these seem so egregious. To be completely honest, it's better to push the envelop than to hold back. Sometimes things come together super well and other times, they don't. They have no way to predict what the meta will look like (consider that there's only like 20 of them vs the collective hive mind when it comes to play testing). Mistakes will slip through. The problem, and i hope they scale this back, is 3 mana planeswalkers. These tend to be too strong when you have 1 drop acceleration available in standard. Hell even without acceleration, we all know how strong 3 mana walkers are (too efficient). If you bumped both Teferi and Oko up to 4 mana, they are nowhere near as oppressive (as your opponent will have had time to build a board).
Additionally, WotC has mentioned that they would be more aggressive to correct metagames with bannings. I'm totally on board with this. In fact, the truth is that in the past, they should have been more proactive to address bad metagames.
I understand that some players may feel frustrated with this, but without the ability to "nerf" cards, this is the only way.
Veil of summer is an insanely overpowered card. It's a 1 mana "cryptic command". Hell, it's even begun to see main deck play.
Narset was actually a problem in vintage (like a serious one) but i'm surprised they care enough to have done that.
W6 doesn't surprise me. The interaction with wasteland is oppressive. However, I think this is too bad because it keeps mana bases honest, which is pretty cool. This does provide an alternative for players who want to enter the format. If your deck is good vs wasteland, you stand a chance vs all the big decks.
Green has been pushed quite a bit since the last Innistrad. I think every color will get it's time to shine. Eventually, that might even be white!
I'd frankly be 200% okay with the value of my duals, forces, and other "staples" taking hits if it meant more people were in the format I loved.
I'll be playing it anyways because it's simply the format I enjoy the most, but I definitely miss the days of people dropping into the old development threads almost on a daily basis, looking for where to get started and how.
I see WoTC's stance towards Legacy very similar to how Nintendo views the competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee Scene; indifferent. But 18 years after its release, the game still has a vibrant and huge competitive scene, because the community just didn't care that we didn't have official support. We just played the game and ran our own tournaments and even with the rise of the "eSports"-era that started within the past 3-4 years, there are still community-run events that regularly draw several hundred entrants and international competitors.
Obviously it's not a perfect parallel, as the physical means to play Legacy are a finite resource, whereas the Melee community still gets new controllers and such. But it still just comes down to a question of just playing what you love.
I own a mint Black Lotus, and I wouldn't be remotely worried about the card taking a hit. On the contrary I can only see it rising in value because the game would be far more exposed to millions of casual players who would see why the card is the holy grail of Magic. Legacy is by far the most challenging format the game has to offer. It has insanely powerful decks in the most extensive meta with limitless deck building strategy, and it's pretty straight forward so that it doesn't require proxies. Players don't mind paying up for cards like Wasteland because they usually fit in certain type of decks with very specific trategies. But when it comes to dual lands, 100% of all multicolored decks need them. Without the dual lands, there is no Legacy. I can't think of a reason why WotC wouldn't want to reprint those lands as mythic rares and open the floodgates for millions of younger players who are dying to play the format.
I thought about this for a minute. Yes, reprinting duals *could* potentially attract more players to Legacy (if you ONLY reprint the duals, that is). And the more I think about it, the less I think it's viable. The reason for that is that if you reprint the duals (let's exclude the idea that if you're willing to print these, then others will ask why not the rest? eventually) and it does bring new blood into the game, what do you think happens to all the staples that are on the reserve list? They explode in value and make it even LESS accessible. Although it would be sweet to get new card frame duals, it will never resolve the problem of scarcity. Legacy is a format that is doomed at the competitive level. SCG will have their "special events" be legacy and those will be like a sideshow, a "once, we played magic like this" kind of thing. It'll become a bit of a gimmick. Magic has moved on from this 'old man'.
At this point, if you wanna play legacy, you have to rely on your local community or...Japan.
If I'm not mistaken Thoughtseize will be the only tier 1 non-creature spell from Modern and Legacy that's legal in this format.
Actually, I'll go over the colors real quick looking for what they lost and kept compared to Modern and Legacy.
Red has lost probably the top 3-5 spells (Bolt, Looting, Chain Lightning, Forked Bolt, etc). We're literally talking Shock / Incinerate level now.
Blue has lost all existing cantrips as well as Jace, Delver and Snapcaster.
Green has lost its top 3-4 mana dorks and its top 3 tutors (GSZ, NO, Chord), only leaving Company behind. They also lost Goyf.
White has lost Path and Swords as well as SFM, which is already all the cards that ever made this color playable in eternal formats.
Yeah, I think I'd start brewing with black first... I think WotC will end up regretting reprinting TSeize in Theros. It's on paper the best spell in the format by a mile.
this will be there formats flagship card. it will also help keep a lot of stupid stuff in check. or maybe I'm wrong and it'll be one of the first cards banned. imo rest in peace will be the second most important card in the format.
Budget card they said. 30 euros now. Do you think price for it will still go up?
Yes. Once MH1 dries up (by December, I believe) all the lands will start to rise in value. I think the cap for this one is around 50$. I would also expect that almost every single card will start to rise once in 2020. MH1 has such a massive impact on eternal formats it's really not smart to underestimate it.
20 bucks a booster pack is absolutely absurd, even if they do come with cool extended art cards or whatever. it's just too much money. I'd be much more onboard with it if they were cheaper, but as it is I don't like it.
huh? this is the weirdest thing i read so far.
400 000 dollars for a house? that's way too expensive! if it were cheaper id buy one.
20 000 for a new car? that's way too expensive! if it were cheaper, id buy one.
20 dollars for a hobby you're in no way obligated to spend money for (in any capacity)? ya let's complain about the real problems...
cmon dude. this doesnt impede on your ability to buy regular product or even play the game.
you post comes across incredibly whinny and self entitled.
This site still works, for some reason so I will provide an update.
I played Neoform once over the weekend in an event. This is how G1 went:
I turned 2 blood moon, then blew up one of his 2 lands. Next Game.
He went off on T1, but actually messed up the combo and...lost.
We played a few more times and he pulled off the combo only once on T1. My opp seemed convince that something needs to be banned from that deck as it was super consistent for him otherwise (but variance didn't work out for him in our match).
What's everyone else's experience against or win Neoform? I can't imagine it gets nerfed but i could be wrong since the London Mulligan really benefits it.
Lightning Bolt and Inquisitions are huge reasons why. Also modern is significantly faster than pioneer. Most modern decks don't care about Oko. The only deck that plays it is Urza and that deck doesn't even need to.
again, no where does this say you can't cast cards from your yard. i dont see how you can't cast elspeth from the yard.
1) where does it say you cant cast spells from the grave??
2) you can still just pay mana directly
in no way does fire stop you from casting elspeth, am i missing something??
The problem with copter is that it is better than literally any other 2 drop in the format. Which means that it pushes a ton of cards out. A 2 mana 3/3 flyer that loots is insane. There are very few good answers to it. Lightning bolt not existing is a big reason why. You either trade at parity, or it costs you more to kill it, and that's if they didn't attack with it. It's an absurd card for a format with very little 1 mana removal spells (people were playing that 1 black exile target colorless creature in their sideboard...that card is insanely narrow...but copter...).
As for Marvel, I just don't see it. It's good, but not good enough to warrant a ban. Energy basically is unplayable right now.
Yes, it was. I played BG Fod and it's probably one of the best decks i have ever played in my life. I felt unbeatable. Phoenix was a bit of a joke too since they really can't beat this deck, no matter how well they draw. It was the format's best deck by a landslide simply because it could adapt to anything without affecting it's win-con.
Thopter was the format's best card too. That had to go as there really wasn't any good answers to it and it was just too damn efficient at what it does. If only it was a 1/1, then it'd have been fine.
All the right cards have been banned so far. Phoenix will regain some real estate but this opens up the format like crazy. Control is actually playable now!
The more I read about play design and the more I think a lot of people's hate is super misguided. Play design DOES NOT design cards with the purpose of sales. That is NOT their role. I don't believe for a second that that's their main goal when designing cards.
Reading the last article about play design really helps puts things in perspective, in my opinion. What's been happening is that they have actually powered down standard quite a bit but have pushed a few cards really far in one direction. So that's why some of these seem so egregious. To be completely honest, it's better to push the envelop than to hold back. Sometimes things come together super well and other times, they don't. They have no way to predict what the meta will look like (consider that there's only like 20 of them vs the collective hive mind when it comes to play testing). Mistakes will slip through. The problem, and i hope they scale this back, is 3 mana planeswalkers. These tend to be too strong when you have 1 drop acceleration available in standard. Hell even without acceleration, we all know how strong 3 mana walkers are (too efficient). If you bumped both Teferi and Oko up to 4 mana, they are nowhere near as oppressive (as your opponent will have had time to build a board).
Additionally, WotC has mentioned that they would be more aggressive to correct metagames with bannings. I'm totally on board with this. In fact, the truth is that in the past, they should have been more proactive to address bad metagames.
I understand that some players may feel frustrated with this, but without the ability to "nerf" cards, this is the only way.
Veil of summer is an insanely overpowered card. It's a 1 mana "cryptic command". Hell, it's even begun to see main deck play.
Narset was actually a problem in vintage (like a serious one) but i'm surprised they care enough to have done that.
W6 doesn't surprise me. The interaction with wasteland is oppressive. However, I think this is too bad because it keeps mana bases honest, which is pretty cool. This does provide an alternative for players who want to enter the format. If your deck is good vs wasteland, you stand a chance vs all the big decks.
Green has been pushed quite a bit since the last Innistrad. I think every color will get it's time to shine. Eventually, that might even be white!
I thought about this for a minute. Yes, reprinting duals *could* potentially attract more players to Legacy (if you ONLY reprint the duals, that is). And the more I think about it, the less I think it's viable. The reason for that is that if you reprint the duals (let's exclude the idea that if you're willing to print these, then others will ask why not the rest? eventually) and it does bring new blood into the game, what do you think happens to all the staples that are on the reserve list? They explode in value and make it even LESS accessible. Although it would be sweet to get new card frame duals, it will never resolve the problem of scarcity. Legacy is a format that is doomed at the competitive level. SCG will have their "special events" be legacy and those will be like a sideshow, a "once, we played magic like this" kind of thing. It'll become a bit of a gimmick. Magic has moved on from this 'old man'.
At this point, if you wanna play legacy, you have to rely on your local community or...Japan.
It's done no damage whatsoever.
this will be there formats flagship card. it will also help keep a lot of stupid stuff in check. or maybe I'm wrong and it'll be one of the first cards banned. imo rest in peace will be the second most important card in the format.
Yes. Once MH1 dries up (by December, I believe) all the lands will start to rise in value. I think the cap for this one is around 50$. I would also expect that almost every single card will start to rise once in 2020. MH1 has such a massive impact on eternal formats it's really not smart to underestimate it.
Even better:
Paradise Mantle+Freed from the Real
Play all the lands in your hand and graveyard.
huh? this is the weirdest thing i read so far.
400 000 dollars for a house? that's way too expensive! if it were cheaper id buy one.
20 000 for a new car? that's way too expensive! if it were cheaper, id buy one.
20 dollars for a hobby you're in no way obligated to spend money for (in any capacity)? ya let's complain about the real problems...
cmon dude. this doesnt impede on your ability to buy regular product or even play the game.
you post comes across incredibly whinny and self entitled.
I played Neoform once over the weekend in an event. This is how G1 went:
I turned 2 blood moon, then blew up one of his 2 lands. Next Game.
He went off on T1, but actually messed up the combo and...lost.
We played a few more times and he pulled off the combo only once on T1. My opp seemed convince that something needs to be banned from that deck as it was super consistent for him otherwise (but variance didn't work out for him in our match).
What's everyone else's experience against or win Neoform? I can't imagine it gets nerfed but i could be wrong since the London Mulligan really benefits it.