I'd cry hard, but then I would just move into RUG Control.
Why RUG? BUG would be so much better getting both Counterspell and best removal ever printed. Finally would be a reason to play that color pair together.
What they are saying by not printing "downside" 1-2cmc counters for Modern is simply: "We do not want counters to be good in Modern."
I think the comment was more, the only format that will benefit from a 2CMC counter is Modern, because every other eternal format already has better options and Standard doesn't need a 2CMC counter. By introducing a 2CMC counter to Standard, so that it can flow in to Modern, would more than likely disrupt Standard significantly and result in a ban, further damaging the image of Standard. If they unban already existing counters so Modern can use them, how does that impact Modern?
Modern already has a plethora of counters and ways to disrupt the stack. Many people dislike stack interaction. And, as we're now seeing, Ux has a very competitively viable build, so how much would adding another, even lower CMC, counter affect the power level of Ux builds?
I think the logical conclusion has to be that 2CMC counter would provide too much power to the Ux decks and further elevate their Top8/16/32 showings. Which then cascades into "slower" magic, with resulting timed-out matches, and logistics issues because more people are playing Ux decks with the powerful 2CMC counters and other decks drop in meta share because they can't get anything successfully through the stack bottle neck.
Obligatory - "OMG that's a way overblown fear..."
1) That's why I said (several times on the previous page) that a 1-2cmc counterspell with downside would be nice. There's a reason why Remand, Mana Leak, Logic Knot, Negate, Dispel, Spell Snare all see play, but not a single Cancel+upside sees any play whatsoever. It would have been nice to have something at least as powerful as the recent slew of busted removal spells.
2) Yes, Ux has a great deck. Specifically UW, which would not be able to cast this hypothetical UR without taking several downgrading steps. That's entirely the point of printing it in specifically UR to provide help for the tempo decks they have destroyed multiple times in the past.
3) The success of one deck that can't even play this hypothetical card should not impact whether or not we get to have that card.
4) A card would not break Standard if it had a downside that makes it poor/OK in Standard, but great in Modern.
1) You just named 6 1-2 CMC spells that can go currently go into a Modern UR Deck. Why do you need another, specifically for UR?
2) The premise of your argument is that UR doesn't have an appropriately costed counterspell and therefore is "destroyed" as a result. Is that really the case though? Is a 1-2 CMC counterspell that fits narrowly into just a UR tempo shell going to catapult that deck forward, or will it actually do next to nothing for the deck that already has 6 of these options available, as you pointed out previously, and then end up being abused by a different build that you and Wizards didn't foresee?
3) Correct, if the hypothetical card is unplayable in the deck cited. My argument wasn't narrowly tailored to a UR build. The reason being, the counter, at 1 CMC, would also be playable in UW because it would have to be a U costed counter. A R costed counter doesn't fit the pie and likely ends up breaking other Rx decks. So, your hypothetical card would have to be UR costed by its very nature and then, yes, you are correct, that would not be played in the current UW build and that argument fails. But, it may make Jeskai rise or UR tempo, as you propose, or some other deck(s) we haven't considered.
4)How on earth do you design such a narrow counterspell that it's "poor/ok" in Standard but good in Modern? That seems like a complete impossibility for that type of card.
It's not that difficult. You can print a UR counter that untaps all the lands that player tapped to cast the spell. Perhaps that wording isn't possible, so then you just add an untap X clause. You can make a UB Counter that causes you to lose 2 life, sac a permanent, etc. There are all sorts of cost-reduction mechanics. You can make a UR/UB Cancel that costs 1 less to cast if you have some # of I/S in your GY, etc.
People don't like their big bombs countered? Just make an inverse Disdainful Stroke. That card would see all sorts of Modern play. In fact, it's a card a lot of people have been wondering why it hasn't all ready happened. Same thing with a Revolt Counterspell. Completely fine in standard, but great in Modern. There are a ton of missed opportunities from Wizards in this regard. It's not too different from stuff like Take Inventory and all the "fixed" versions of Fact or Fiction. None of that ***** sees play. The original cards were/are interesting and powerful. I just really dislike them using print equity on these types of "throwbacks" that are slaps in the face. A card like Accumulated Knowledge would be really interesting in Modern. Hell, don't have to reprint it exactly if you don't like its symmetry, you can just make it asymmetrical like Take Inventory, but sorcery speed....really? Same principles apply to their print equity of counters.
Edit: Also, where are the Dimir cards? Every other guild has had 3-4+ R/MR spoiled, but Dimir only has their crappy 6 mana MR spoiled. Does this bode well that they're leaving them for last? Probably not....
@CFP: You have to understand that Teferi won't and can't let them print any 2 cmc counterspell. Even Deprive would be too good at this point in Standard.
Let's wait for another year, until he rotates out and see what happens. For now, we got Jace, Teferi, Opt, Search, Field and so many other playable blue control cards. It seems crazy to complain about blue, when it received so many tools!
I actually think post-Assassin Trophy era that you want to play 0-1 Search for Azcanta. The primary MU's you'd ideally want this card now have access to an easy answer (whether it be Field or other options). It's all ready borderline too slow against the aggro decks in the format and against some combo decks it's difficult to spend 4 mana for shields down (think Ad Naus) or is just too slow there (re: Grishoal/etc.). Search really cemented Ux control being favored against the various Bx based mid-range decks, but that's no longer the case. It's still going to be a powerhouse against Mardu, but it's going to be an underwhelming card in a large amount of MU's. I'd rather play more Hieroglyphic Illumination / insert non-permanent CA card (I think Chemister's Insight has a good spot as a 1-of in a lot of control decks, especially UB decks with Thought Scour).
The real reason why UW is where it is now is because of Field and Teferi/Jace/Terminus. I was a huge champion of bringing Opt into Modern, but it is a very very minor upgrade over current options, but let's not kid ourselves that it had a big effect. Going from SV to Preordain/Ponder there you have an argument, but not with Opt. The point I'm trying to make is without either Field or Teferi, UW is not in the spot it is now. Take away the other cards, and UW is still Tier 1 (even Jace imho). Teferi is just such a good card, but since it is multi-color it pigeon-holes you. Is it too much to ask for on-par control cards in UB and UR? Why does BG always get the best multi-color answers? It just seems odd to me that the I/S colors have *****ty I/S and color pairings like RW, GR, and BR have much better options.
Nahiri and etc. For RW? Lol ...call me this etc please..what is this? Maybe nothing?
Boros Charm, Ajani Vengeant, Reckoner is super niche with Blasphemous Act (feel free not to count this one), Deflecting Palm, Figure of Destiny is super niche like Reckoner, and Wear//Tear. Please, name me some UB cards on par with stuff like Helix, Charm, Wear//Tear, Nahiri, etc.? UB has some fringe stuff like Shadow of Doubt, a literal Negate that tacks on lose 2 life, and Tezz AoB. That's it. Ok, maybe Ashiok is niche and people like playing it, but it's not a good card. Oh, I guess the mill cards....Glimpse and Mind Funeral. That's silly amount of bad compared to every other guild's multi-color cards except UG.
Autumn, while you're right that UB has good mono-colored cards in Legacy (obviously...blue is the best color and black second best in the format), I think it would be less represented without a card like Baleful Strix. That card pushes UBx decks into serious tournament contenders in Legacy. Modern has nothing even remotely close to that for UB.
Last visit to Rav almost every guild got a modern staple. Hopefully AT means that’s happening again.
UG and UB says Hello there. Let's just say I'm not optimistic. These color pairings are god awful when it comes to multi-color cards compared to everyone else.
When it comes to multi-color answers (or cards in general really) BG and UW are so far ahead of everyone else it's hysterical. WoTC seems to have a problem with balancing power with other guilds. I love UR and UB, and while UR has Electrolyze, UB has nothing (I don't really count a color "shifted" negate that tacks on 2 life loss as something unique...). I do think WoTC should not be so one minded when it comes to guilds. Stuff like Lightning Helix / Searing Meditation / etc. would be nice to see more of from Boros instead of just a bunch of bad weenies. At least this time UB isn't just mill.
I feel like UB and UG are the two color pairings in MTG modernity that almost universally their multi-color cards are garbage. Every other color pairing have good cards. So far it doesn't look like anything is changing in that regard.
Would this be too good?
Good UB Card UB
Instant - R
Choose one or both -
Destroy target creature with power 2 or more.
Return target instant or sorcery other than <card name> from your graveyard to your hand.
BG gets stuff like Abrupt Decay, Pulse, Trophy, etc. UW has D. Sphere / Verdict / Teferi / etc., RW has Helix / Nahiri / etc., GW/RG have a bunch of under-costed good value / disruptive creatures and stuff like A. Command/Ancient Grudge, UR has Electrolyze, Keranos, (technically Mantis Rider), Staticaster, WB has Lingering Souls, Unburial Rites, Sin Collector, etc.
UG and UB have *****. This was a good time for WoTC to give some of the guilds on the short end of the stick some love, but instead they seem to be continuing the status quo. BG and UW will get the good stuff.
for the people here, and the mtg community by and large, its mostly just a guessing game. the best we can do is look at the past decisions wizards has made, with the assumption that they will make similar decisions in the future. or look at when modern, or other formats, were held in high regard; break down the qualities of that format and see how they align with the current state of things.
for a good viewer experience here are some things id look for:
archetype diversity: its good to show that the game can be played multiple ways and players can choose something suited to their tastes
the ability to outplay or out maneuver an opponent: wanting to see skill being a factor, including being able to score a comeback win
rewarding creativity: unique use of card or game mechanics to showcase there is more depth than how cards read on the surface.
games are close: generates suspense, and wins happening on slimmer margins means the small edges accrued matter
those were what i could think of off the top of my head. having 20 decks with different names on camera only to see lopsided games where people are just nutting all over eachother is hardly interesting. likewise the same deck showing up repeatedly, even if the gameplay itself is compelling, would lose appeal quickly (ie temur energy mirrors).
If viewer experience is the metric by which you determine success then there are certainly grave offenders in modern (in which players flock to as they are high variance lockout cards) such as Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, Chalice of the Void, etc. None of these cards provide compelling viewership. Basically, cards that invalidate parts of the game are not so great for viewership. I give it *****, but I still love Modern (especially compared to Standard), but for me the spectating quality of the matches has gone significantly downhill since Pod/Twin bannings. While it wasn't as "diverse", the viewing experience was much better back when Pod, Twin/Ux control, BGx, and infect/burn/affinity were the top decks. Pod vs Ux control, BGx vs Twin, etc. were all fun viewing experiences that had depth to the gameplay. I find that is much more lacking in today's format. Cue another "diversity" (imho in name only as archetypal diversity has suffered since those days imho) vs subjective viewer and player experience argument.
I just want Containment Priest and Gerrard's Verdict in modern. WoTC make this happen somehow please. (Yes, supplemental set that introduces cards into Modern would be a great way)
All the decks I build lose hard to Tron. That's ok. There'd be a problem if I could just load up and destroy aggro/combo G1 and side into really good anti-control/midrange cards for G2/G3's (and more combo/GY hate) without being punished by a deck like Tron. It keeps balance in the format. In a large event, that's not such a problem because Tron is maybe 6-8% of any given field and probably less Day 2 / Top tables so you can probably afford to punt the MU, however, when 25% of your local meta is Tron/E-Ton it's a little frustrating.
Well, he is Modern, Legacy, and Vintage playable, as well as being an EDH staple. His floor is probably 40$. He's only going to get more powerful as more powerful artifacts enter older formats. Teferi though is the overpriced one. Dual color and only modern playable in 1-2 decks. He'll be 20-25$ in 6 months.
I don't think that a Saga and a PW are comparable. Karn gives you more options, can last longer and doesn't require UU to cast in the first place.
The Saga is just a weaker version of Tezzeret which is rarely seen in Affinity SB's.
They are comparable. Both Karn and Antiquities are CA + Win con. They fulfill exactly the same function at 4 mana of get ahead/filter + kill you. Antiquities is harder to interact with and digs deeper and reads Suspend 2: win the game. It's basically an artifact version of Nahiri's main function -- Suspend 2: Win the Game. Also, it's U, not UU. You might want to take a look at the top right corner one more time. The reason Affinity doesn't play Tezz is because it requires 2 colored mana and that can be difficult for affinity. If Tezz AoB was just a U or just a B it would be played a lot more in affinity SB's.
Also could you explain how Karn gives you more options? You + or - Karn for card selection. Antiquities War does the same, but digs 5 deep and doesn't give the opponent the choice. You - Karn for artifact token to kill opponent. Antiquities turns all your artifacts into 5/5's that dodge sorcery speed removal. Yes, you have to wait 2 turns with Antiquities, but digging 5 deep is no joke especially compared to the punisher + of Karn. (And turning all your dorky artifacts / artifact lands into 5/5's is much more powerful imho than a Master of Eth. token)
I do agree that the bad matchups are really bad and good matchups are pretty close. I do agree that you are putting yourself at a handicap. But Control players have (almost) always put themselves at a handicap in Modern. There's a reason I went from playing Control (and the occasional Tempo or Aggro Control) for 8 years to not touching it with a 10 ft pole. It's been about 7 years since I played Control with any frequency. I actually don't know what Wizards can do at this point to make it more viable in this format without breaking stuff. I feel that Preordain is a small start. Trying to print something to port from Standard could help.
Like it or not, Modern is a very goldfishy format. Matchups are everything. If I were to list the most important tools to doing well in Modern in order, I would list it like this.
1. Draws during the game.
2. Matchup.
3. Mulligans.
4. Play skill.
Sorry, but play skill is not among the top 3 most important keys to winning in Modern. I went only doing worse than 3-1 at FNM twice at Shuffle and Cut to getting 2-2 five times in the past 4 months. I've had to come to some realizations about this, often losing to people who have played the game of Magic less than I've played Modern or play test a lot less than I do. I basically breathe Modern right now, going to many different websites to read articles or watch streams. Then I play test quite a bit and play tournaments 4-5 times per week. It absolutely suuuucks losing to someone who is playing a suboptimal deck or makes suboptimal plays, but this is the state of Modern right now. I've come to try to accept it because I have no other choice. I still love Modern a lot more than any other format (which previous to the Top ban in Legacy, I would say it was close to Legacy).
*And you want to talk about razor thin margins, try playing Amulet Titan. The slightest mistake is quite often GG for you. The last time I played Bloom Titan with Summer Bloom, I tried it at 2 FNMs, going 3-2 twice. I couldn't accept that it takes a while to play super good and that I was not going to win prize for a while. I PUNTED a match vs. Infect in the 2nd FNM with it, so I should have been 4-1. This whole deck is a process of learning, doing poorly, and relearning, and trying to do much better. Once you've gone through those stages, you can probably successfully pilot it nearly as good as a Tier 1 deck, but it takes a LOT to get to that point.
Swords to Plowshares, Counterspell, and Fact or Fiction would make control a T1 GP consideration. Swords gives the deck 8 1 mana exile effects and together with something like Detention Sphere really helps their bad MU's (Dredge, Hollow One, etc.) while cementing their good MU's. UWx control with 4 Swords, 4 Path, 1-2 D. Sphere, 1 Settle would be quite nice as an exile removal suite. I've had a feeling FoF has been needed in the format for a long time now. It's skill-testing and an extremely potent CA engine/selection spell. Counterspell would add consistency % and not be anti-synergy or frail to GY hate like Logic Knot.
Of course, I think the prison/hate pieces in the format are a lot stronger than counters (Runed Halo, Leyline, Rest in Peace, Graf. cage, Bridge, etc.) except against Tron. I think a RWu historic control deck may actually be preferable to traditional UWx control decks (as it checks one of those % boxes - being able to play 8 1 mana exile removal (4 dispatch, 4 path) in the 75, as well as a better bolt (Galvanic Blast) that hits important creatures like Hollow One/TKS or can snag a LoTV after a +1. Since you get to play mana acceleration, you also get to play better card filtering in something like Board the Weatherlight (2 mana is a little less taxing than non-acceleration decks). In any event, the reason people lament lack of competitively viable Control is because Control is the only macro archetype that is in this position. It's not fair to compare a macro archetype with micro-decks. For healthy magic, there has to be some semblance of balance imho, that's why I don't mind Tron/Big Mana decks.
Why RUG? BUG would be so much better getting both Counterspell and best removal ever printed. Finally would be a reason to play that color pair together.
It's not that difficult. You can print a UR counter that untaps all the lands that player tapped to cast the spell. Perhaps that wording isn't possible, so then you just add an untap X clause. You can make a UB Counter that causes you to lose 2 life, sac a permanent, etc. There are all sorts of cost-reduction mechanics. You can make a UR/UB Cancel that costs 1 less to cast if you have some # of I/S in your GY, etc.
People don't like their big bombs countered? Just make an inverse Disdainful Stroke. That card would see all sorts of Modern play. In fact, it's a card a lot of people have been wondering why it hasn't all ready happened. Same thing with a Revolt Counterspell. Completely fine in standard, but great in Modern. There are a ton of missed opportunities from Wizards in this regard. It's not too different from stuff like Take Inventory and all the "fixed" versions of Fact or Fiction. None of that ***** sees play. The original cards were/are interesting and powerful. I just really dislike them using print equity on these types of "throwbacks" that are slaps in the face. A card like Accumulated Knowledge would be really interesting in Modern. Hell, don't have to reprint it exactly if you don't like its symmetry, you can just make it asymmetrical like Take Inventory, but sorcery speed....really? Same principles apply to their print equity of counters.
Edit: Also, where are the Dimir cards? Every other guild has had 3-4+ R/MR spoiled, but Dimir only has their crappy 6 mana MR spoiled. Does this bode well that they're leaving them for last? Probably not....
I actually think post-Assassin Trophy era that you want to play 0-1 Search for Azcanta. The primary MU's you'd ideally want this card now have access to an easy answer (whether it be Field or other options). It's all ready borderline too slow against the aggro decks in the format and against some combo decks it's difficult to spend 4 mana for shields down (think Ad Naus) or is just too slow there (re: Grishoal/etc.). Search really cemented Ux control being favored against the various Bx based mid-range decks, but that's no longer the case. It's still going to be a powerhouse against Mardu, but it's going to be an underwhelming card in a large amount of MU's. I'd rather play more Hieroglyphic Illumination / insert non-permanent CA card (I think Chemister's Insight has a good spot as a 1-of in a lot of control decks, especially UB decks with Thought Scour).
The real reason why UW is where it is now is because of Field and Teferi/Jace/Terminus. I was a huge champion of bringing Opt into Modern, but it is a very very minor upgrade over current options, but let's not kid ourselves that it had a big effect. Going from SV to Preordain/Ponder there you have an argument, but not with Opt. The point I'm trying to make is without either Field or Teferi, UW is not in the spot it is now. Take away the other cards, and UW is still Tier 1 (even Jace imho). Teferi is just such a good card, but since it is multi-color it pigeon-holes you. Is it too much to ask for on-par control cards in UB and UR? Why does BG always get the best multi-color answers? It just seems odd to me that the I/S colors have *****ty I/S and color pairings like RW, GR, and BR have much better options.
Boros Charm, Ajani Vengeant, Reckoner is super niche with Blasphemous Act (feel free not to count this one), Deflecting Palm, Figure of Destiny is super niche like Reckoner, and Wear//Tear. Please, name me some UB cards on par with stuff like Helix, Charm, Wear//Tear, Nahiri, etc.? UB has some fringe stuff like Shadow of Doubt, a literal Negate that tacks on lose 2 life, and Tezz AoB. That's it. Ok, maybe Ashiok is niche and people like playing it, but it's not a good card. Oh, I guess the mill cards....Glimpse and Mind Funeral. That's silly amount of bad compared to every other guild's multi-color cards except UG.
Autumn, while you're right that UB has good mono-colored cards in Legacy (obviously...blue is the best color and black second best in the format), I think it would be less represented without a card like Baleful Strix. That card pushes UBx decks into serious tournament contenders in Legacy. Modern has nothing even remotely close to that for UB.
UG and UB says Hello there. Let's just say I'm not optimistic. These color pairings are god awful when it comes to multi-color cards compared to everyone else.
I feel like UB and UG are the two color pairings in MTG modernity that almost universally their multi-color cards are garbage. Every other color pairing have good cards. So far it doesn't look like anything is changing in that regard.
Would this be too good?
Good UB Card UB
Instant - R
Choose one or both -
Destroy target creature with power 2 or more.
Return target instant or sorcery other than <card name> from your graveyard to your hand.
BG gets stuff like Abrupt Decay, Pulse, Trophy, etc. UW has D. Sphere / Verdict / Teferi / etc., RW has Helix / Nahiri / etc., GW/RG have a bunch of under-costed good value / disruptive creatures and stuff like A. Command/Ancient Grudge, UR has Electrolyze, Keranos, (technically Mantis Rider), Staticaster, WB has Lingering Souls, Unburial Rites, Sin Collector, etc.
UG and UB have *****. This was a good time for WoTC to give some of the guilds on the short end of the stick some love, but instead they seem to be continuing the status quo. BG and UW will get the good stuff.
If viewer experience is the metric by which you determine success then there are certainly grave offenders in modern (in which players flock to as they are high variance lockout cards) such as Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, Chalice of the Void, etc. None of these cards provide compelling viewership. Basically, cards that invalidate parts of the game are not so great for viewership. I give it *****, but I still love Modern (especially compared to Standard), but for me the spectating quality of the matches has gone significantly downhill since Pod/Twin bannings. While it wasn't as "diverse", the viewing experience was much better back when Pod, Twin/Ux control, BGx, and infect/burn/affinity were the top decks. Pod vs Ux control, BGx vs Twin, etc. were all fun viewing experiences that had depth to the gameplay. I find that is much more lacking in today's format. Cue another "diversity" (imho in name only as archetypal diversity has suffered since those days imho) vs subjective viewer and player experience argument.
Instant (U)
Choose one:
They are comparable. Both Karn and Antiquities are CA + Win con. They fulfill exactly the same function at 4 mana of get ahead/filter + kill you. Antiquities is harder to interact with and digs deeper and reads Suspend 2: win the game. It's basically an artifact version of Nahiri's main function -- Suspend 2: Win the Game. Also, it's U, not UU. You might want to take a look at the top right corner one more time. The reason Affinity doesn't play Tezz is because it requires 2 colored mana and that can be difficult for affinity. If Tezz AoB was just a U or just a B it would be played a lot more in affinity SB's.
Also could you explain how Karn gives you more options? You + or - Karn for card selection. Antiquities War does the same, but digs 5 deep and doesn't give the opponent the choice. You - Karn for artifact token to kill opponent. Antiquities turns all your artifacts into 5/5's that dodge sorcery speed removal. Yes, you have to wait 2 turns with Antiquities, but digging 5 deep is no joke especially compared to the punisher + of Karn. (And turning all your dorky artifacts / artifact lands into 5/5's is much more powerful imho than a Master of Eth. token)
Swords to Plowshares, Counterspell, and Fact or Fiction would make control a T1 GP consideration. Swords gives the deck 8 1 mana exile effects and together with something like Detention Sphere really helps their bad MU's (Dredge, Hollow One, etc.) while cementing their good MU's. UWx control with 4 Swords, 4 Path, 1-2 D. Sphere, 1 Settle would be quite nice as an exile removal suite. I've had a feeling FoF has been needed in the format for a long time now. It's skill-testing and an extremely potent CA engine/selection spell. Counterspell would add consistency % and not be anti-synergy or frail to GY hate like Logic Knot.
Of course, I think the prison/hate pieces in the format are a lot stronger than counters (Runed Halo, Leyline, Rest in Peace, Graf. cage, Bridge, etc.) except against Tron. I think a RWu historic control deck may actually be preferable to traditional UWx control decks (as it checks one of those % boxes - being able to play 8 1 mana exile removal (4 dispatch, 4 path) in the 75, as well as a better bolt (Galvanic Blast) that hits important creatures like Hollow One/TKS or can snag a LoTV after a +1. Since you get to play mana acceleration, you also get to play better card filtering in something like Board the Weatherlight (2 mana is a little less taxing than non-acceleration decks). In any event, the reason people lament lack of competitively viable Control is because Control is the only macro archetype that is in this position. It's not fair to compare a macro archetype with micro-decks. For healthy magic, there has to be some semblance of balance imho, that's why I don't mind Tron/Big Mana decks.