I can see this however the one major tournament (GP) there was, as well as the SCG team event, didn’t show that the deck was all that oppressive. Only 2 copies in the top 8 doesn’t quite live up to the hype of this obscene win rate wotc claims and isn’t exactly tier 0. UW Control also put 2 copies in the same top 8 and we aren’t calling for bans on Control.
Maybe not here directly but I have certainly seen people elsewhere being salty about UWs ever increasing power level. Maybe all the Midrange and Jank players
If you're a lingering souls mid range player you want to see UW. When I was playing Esper Midrange (granted, a jank deck) I'd love to see UWx control across from me. It's not too difficult to build mid-range decks to be positive against UW. There are certainly a fair amount of grindy tools in the format. A deck like Mardu would also love to sit across from UW every round. UW is certainly a strong deck, but it's not a giant.
Red Bull tournament in Brussels was indeed good with pretty nice metagamne but I will contribute most of this to Hogaak. Hogaak keeps tron and some other decks in check allowing more fair decks to compete. If Hogaak is banned Tron will come back and uw control will be the only viable fair deck again as it used to be pre-Hogaak. This is far from great and balanced format unless you enjoy uw being the only decent fair deck while others (mostly midrange) are basically dead.
Just a few words by me. I don't post here for several years now because you can't discuss anything productive but I just wanted to say this (although it might be better if I didn't as this).
To be fair, I think Jund has the best Tron MU it has ever had, if you build a little for it. You have Assassin's Tropy, Unearth + Fulminator Mage, Wrenn and Six + GQ, Collector Ouphe, plus of course Surgical to go with the LD. Jund's never had it as good against Tron.
If Hogaak is fine then 90% of the cards on the banlist need to come off tomorrow. They're a joke compared to the format. GSZ, SFM, Twin, Artifact lands, Pod, Dread Return (lol), Cloudpost, DRS, GGT (lol), Preordain, Punishing Fire, Jitte, etc. Modern is what legacy would look like without safety valves.
One's I'm less confident will be T8, but have a decent shot: Ranger-Captain of Eos (If in humans will show up, but boosts power of a lot of fringe decks) Unearth Regrowth (JAC? Potential) Eladamri's Call (Neoform, Naya Breach, we'll see)
FoF (1 of UWx, better in UB, storm SB?) Goblin Engineer (who knows here...)
Urza (Potentially busted, or a non-player) Seasoned Pyromancer (Will see play, but not sure how prevalent) Lava Dart (Mono-Red Phoenix, I think Firebolt is better in UR Phoenix) Wrenn and Six (Pretty good chance here, it's powerful and a good enabler) Kaya's Guile (versatile, but in a generally poor color combination) Ice-Fang Coatl (same as Guile, but if there is a snow deck it's probably built on the back of this guy)
Talismans (Better than they're given credit for, I think the RW one has some potential to turn on Blast/Dispatch in a more controlly build possibly with Resto-Kiki combo to ramp into)
Nissa's Oath is so underwhelming and at 2 mana feels like a bad play. Something like Mirri's Guile at 1 would be fantastic, for example.
Sylvan Library (which absolutely won't happen).
Or some kind of DRS efficient threat. All I know is throwing more removal isn't what needs to be done. We have absolutely nothing to ensure flooding. Meanwhile, decks are getting leaner, running less lands, cantripping, or outright winning so quickly. Fair decks need some unfair element added to the mix.
Oath of Nissa is 1 CMC. It's underrated in general imho, but I don't think it fits BGx midrange decks unless more removal gets stapled onto creatures then it starts to get really good (like it is in Bant with Spell Quellers, Deputy of Detention, Ice-Fang Coatl, etc.).
The negativity towards this set, whether in this thread or the Reddit comment sections, is just unwarranted.
1. Less than half of the set has been spoiled. Wizards obviously started with some big ones like FoN, but it's been much slower since then. It is like this every preview season as the previews are a curated experience that need to appeal to various players. Wizards intersperses exciting cards to keep hype high.
2. All Magic communities frequently miss powerful cards. Powerhouses like WAR Narset were under-appreciated by most evaluators until people started playing the set. LSV, Joel Larsson, MTG Goldfish, Dylan Donegan, Emma Handy, and a half dozen other writers barely mentioned Search for Azcanta in their Modern reviews (or didn't mention it at all). I don't remember reading a single Modern review of Rivals that included Arclight Phoenix. Card evaluation is hard and people need to play cards to figure out if they are actually good or bad.
3. There are numerous eternal staples that Wizards has not yet referenced or remade for Modern. Some, like FoN and FoW are clearly on-mark. Others, like Mom and Giver, are more open. Still others, like Pondering Mage, are clearly just references and probably not as powerful. But any number of the remaining throwbacks, most of which are obviously absent right now, could be very strong. Examples include Daze, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Hymn, Port, and others. I am excited to see these cards, and it will only take 1 to have a huge impact.
It just seems like basic entitlement and assumption that what they want is all that matters. I've seen a few people say the total opposite of things that have been mentioned here, modern is it's own format and is vastly different from legacy and should be, it being a less powerful legacy is just not a good idea.
I'm glad they went about it this way, there's some pretty good cards, and even some potentially broken or format warping cards included in the first half alone. What this set has done for just random theorycrafting is awesome and there's some interesting new decks potentially to come out of this set and some new cards for older decks already of various power levels.
Instead of complaining about what isn't there yet with still half a set to come out start theorycrafting and testing with what we've got.
I for one am pretty happy with some of these cards, albeit I feel some colours have gotten a lot less, probably cause I think blue seems to have gotten so much so far and I would like to see some additions for other colours.
Most of the people *****ing are *****ing because the set has almost zero relevant answers to slow the format down or create a more interactive environment. There's more EDH non-sense than needed answers for the format. How many times have we heard "Wait for MH", they can't print XYZ needed answer in standard it's too powerful "Wait for MH", no need to look at the banlist "Wait for MH". Well, we've waited, and what we've gotten so far is a farce. No one asked for a white reprint of Beast Within (a not playable card outside of LE decks). A 2 mana Swords though...would be useful. Awful red burn spells that can't efficiently deal with X/5's? No one said sign me up for that. For a set called "Modern Horizons" and a player base chanting, "Wait for MH" for needed answers, the set has tremendously flopped so far.
Maybe we're all wrong though and WoTC left all the answer cards to be spoiled in the second week...I doubt it though.
I know we're only 90 cards deep, but holy balls, the distinct lack of any playable answers outside the green force for artifact decks (in the SB) is a joke. No, prohibit/exclude is not modern playable. FoN is SB material at best (There are way too many creature decks to MB such a narrow card in this format...I know, the amount of games I've lost because I'm holding negate/countersquall is ludicrous), Firebolt is interesting in a deck like Phoenix, but it's not really playable as a catch-all answer. Where's Deed, Vindicate, Swords, Abrupt Decay/Assassin's Trophy, (RIP Counterspell), cheap red removal to deal with X/5's, Containment Priest/GY hate, Tribal hate (E-Plague, etc.), Port, more non-basic hate, etc. There's nothing.
There is however, a ***** load of non-sense tribal/EDH cards and very low power level callbacks (bad bad preordain, 5 mana ponder, did we really need a white beast within?, etc.). The marketing of this set has been atrocious.
Feels like the format is rewarding the linear decks even more with this set (the Canopy lands tend to be much better in decks like burn, bogles, etc., than mid-range/control decks), really good infect card, tribal aggro, etc.
I'm really tired of WoTC designing premium sets primarily for limited. Most people aren't going to regularly draft your 7$+ booster set. Burns my britches. /rantover
Has anyone been brewing with Ral, Storm Conduit? There was a fair amount of hype around him for a few days after his spoiling and now I haven't heard a mention anywhere. I'm curious if anyone has come up with any rough deck lists involving the copy combo as a plan A or B.
I wouldnt bother with that. Put him in Wizards, and Tempo them out with Bolts 1 - 8, and Wizards flashing in, and if they tap out? Ral, -2, Bolt, Snap, Bolt for 16 damage...
Am I missing something here...that should be 12 damage.
To be honest, I don't see UR Phoenix that way. CFB reported a 50% win rate of the deck. This is fine, if you ask me. It's just that lots of people wanted to play a UR deck, since it's fun and people seen to like playing it.
The deck was 50% at the latest GP, with the deck warping itself to win in the mirror, and the format warping around itself to beat it...yet it still posted a greater than 50 win%. That's impressive. If you don't cherry pick your data Phoenix has been running between 53-58%. You can argue not to ban something without resorting to obviously ridiculous lies and half truths.
I'm not convinced there is an answer for a Dredge, KCI, Tron meta.
Is Spirits it? Maybe? Infect?
Those 3 decks though are a real issue to me, in how polarizing they can be to play against.
All of them simply say 'go under'.
Infect or Burn would give you 50% or better against all of those.
Burn is poop against Dredge, plus you're not really painting a rosy picture of the format if the answer to the all ready far over-representation of ships passing by each other in the night is another ship passing deck.
Even with the extreme amount of hate dredge was still able to place 3 in the top 32. Dredge just does awful things to the format. As for ancient stirrings, I still say if Preordain is banned, having Stirrings roaming around is a farce.
I think the jump charm design is A+ and something wizards should definitely print. Well done
Thank you! In a pre-trophy world i'd even say its probably too good, but then they printed a 2 cmc instant speed vindicate in the same set that they printed a 3 mana sorcery speed lighting bolt Precision Bolt so who knows where R&D are at this point.
Too good? It's probably on par with Izzet Charm (upsides and downsides - I. Charm can kill X/2's, but can't kill players at 1 life, Pierce is situationally better than Daze), and the modes are all so lukewarm that the jump-start on the card might as well not exist. Discarding 3 to draw 2 is just so bad. The fact you think that card is "probably too good" is while trying not to generalize too much, endemic of the problem with the power level of counters in modern (and flexible non-black cards). This card doesn't even sniff good, let alone too good.
There's an incredibly small amount of people who think this is cheating and I highly doubt you're going to change any people's minds here. Magic has had different arts on different cards for a very long time, man-lands have been a thing for a very long time. None of it is new. If you've been playing for 18 years you should be pretty familiar with it all of it.
Understanding your opponent's board is a huge part of the game; failing to understand the public zones is not your opponent's fault. I do find it rather confusing that you're calling out UW as an easy pairing for you but sore that you didn't recognize a Colonnade... literally their #1 win condition.
What's your solution? Ban all alternate arts? Change the rules and enforce some standard organization of the board? Neither are going to happen.
we should not live only in our baubble of playing magic, i knew players frightened entering modern because of this allowed Tricks of other, so i believe its a baubble and we cannot See what this means for New players. Solution? Call Name of card...put your tectonic edge and say tectonic edge while doing this. Or seperating man lands is another possible way. Nothing to ban here
I would posit that most people who are unfamiliar with commonly played card art are likewise going to have an issue memorizing card text when given the name. It's why when a player doesn't understand a particular card or doesn't remember if in the card text it mentions targeting/choosing/other rules relevant text they ask to read the card or call a judge for the oracle text. They don't ask their opponent what's the card name. Look, maybe next time before you attack perhaps you can do like most people do and ask if the opponent has a celestial colonnade on the battlefield. The opponent is free to be quiet, but they cannot lie about it. If they remain silent, call a judge. If they lie and you attack and they animate a Colonnade, call a judge. This is incumbent upon YOU, not your opponent. It's not like UW decks have a cornucopia battlefield where there are 12 different permanents, on board combat tricks, or a continuously changing board presence. It's literally just lands, maybe a Snapcaster/Clique, or a PW.
I would ask this of you - do you think it is cheating playing with MPR full arts? Searing Blaze is a card even when people can read the card, don't understand half the time. You think people playing with the full art player reward version are cheaters?
If you're a lingering souls mid range player you want to see UW. When I was playing Esper Midrange (granted, a jank deck) I'd love to see UWx control across from me. It's not too difficult to build mid-range decks to be positive against UW. There are certainly a fair amount of grindy tools in the format. A deck like Mardu would also love to sit across from UW every round. UW is certainly a strong deck, but it's not a giant.
To be fair, I think Jund has the best Tron MU it has ever had, if you build a little for it. You have Assassin's Tropy, Unearth + Fulminator Mage, Wrenn and Six + GQ, Collector Ouphe, plus of course Surgical to go with the LD. Jund's never had it as good against Tron.
Horizon Lands
Prismatic Vista
Archmage's Charm
Force cycle (mostly UG)
Step-mom
Fluster will probably show up in lists (0-1)
Collector Ouphe
On Thin Ice (1-2 UW Control and lots of other fringe decks)
Plague Engineer
Tribute Mage
Pillage
Scale Up
Ore-Scale Guardian (This is being slept on for UR phoenix)
One's I'm less confident will be T8, but have a decent shot:
Ranger-Captain of Eos (If in humans will show up, but boosts power of a lot of fringe decks)
Unearth
Regrowth (JAC? Potential)
Eladamri's Call (Neoform, Naya Breach, we'll see)
FoF (1 of UWx, better in UB, storm SB?)
Goblin Engineer (who knows here...)
Urza (Potentially busted, or a non-player)
Seasoned Pyromancer (Will see play, but not sure how prevalent)
Lava Dart (Mono-Red Phoenix, I think Firebolt is better in UR Phoenix)
Wrenn and Six (Pretty good chance here, it's powerful and a good enabler)
Kaya's Guile (versatile, but in a generally poor color combination)
Ice-Fang Coatl (same as Guile, but if there is a snow deck it's probably built on the back of this guy)
Talismans (Better than they're given credit for, I think the RW one has some potential to turn on Blast/Dispatch in a more controlly build possibly with Resto-Kiki combo to ramp into)
Oath of Nissa is 1 CMC. It's underrated in general imho, but I don't think it fits BGx midrange decks unless more removal gets stapled onto creatures then it starts to get really good (like it is in Bant with Spell Quellers, Deputy of Detention, Ice-Fang Coatl, etc.).
Most of the people *****ing are *****ing because the set has almost zero relevant answers to slow the format down or create a more interactive environment. There's more EDH non-sense than needed answers for the format. How many times have we heard "Wait for MH", they can't print XYZ needed answer in standard it's too powerful "Wait for MH", no need to look at the banlist "Wait for MH". Well, we've waited, and what we've gotten so far is a farce. No one asked for a white reprint of Beast Within (a not playable card outside of LE decks). A 2 mana Swords though...would be useful. Awful red burn spells that can't efficiently deal with X/5's? No one said sign me up for that. For a set called "Modern Horizons" and a player base chanting, "Wait for MH" for needed answers, the set has tremendously flopped so far.
Maybe we're all wrong though and WoTC left all the answer cards to be spoiled in the second week...I doubt it though.
There is however, a ***** load of non-sense tribal/EDH cards and very low power level callbacks (bad bad preordain, 5 mana ponder, did we really need a white beast within?, etc.). The marketing of this set has been atrocious.
Feels like the format is rewarding the linear decks even more with this set (the Canopy lands tend to be much better in decks like burn, bogles, etc., than mid-range/control decks), really good infect card, tribal aggro, etc.
I'm really tired of WoTC designing premium sets primarily for limited. Most people aren't going to regularly draft your 7$+ booster set. Burns my britches. /rantover
Am I missing something here...that should be 12 damage.
(3 bolts + 3 pings from Ral)
The deck was 50% at the latest GP, with the deck warping itself to win in the mirror, and the format warping around itself to beat it...yet it still posted a greater than 50 win%. That's impressive. If you don't cherry pick your data Phoenix has been running between 53-58%. You can argue not to ban something without resorting to obviously ridiculous lies and half truths.
Instant - R
Exile target non-land permanent with CMC 3 or less. You gain 2 life.
Feel like a MB answer to artifacts/enchantments/planeswalkers is what is missing for BW midrange (well that and a 2 drop threat other than Confidant).
Burn is poop against Dredge, plus you're not really painting a rosy picture of the format if the answer to the all ready far over-representation of ships passing by each other in the night is another ship passing deck.
Too good? It's probably on par with Izzet Charm (upsides and downsides - I. Charm can kill X/2's, but can't kill players at 1 life, Pierce is situationally better than Daze), and the modes are all so lukewarm that the jump-start on the card might as well not exist. Discarding 3 to draw 2 is just so bad. The fact you think that card is "probably too good" is while trying not to generalize too much, endemic of the problem with the power level of counters in modern (and flexible non-black cards). This card doesn't even sniff good, let alone too good.
I would posit that most people who are unfamiliar with commonly played card art are likewise going to have an issue memorizing card text when given the name. It's why when a player doesn't understand a particular card or doesn't remember if in the card text it mentions targeting/choosing/other rules relevant text they ask to read the card or call a judge for the oracle text. They don't ask their opponent what's the card name. Look, maybe next time before you attack perhaps you can do like most people do and ask if the opponent has a celestial colonnade on the battlefield. The opponent is free to be quiet, but they cannot lie about it. If they remain silent, call a judge. If they lie and you attack and they animate a Colonnade, call a judge. This is incumbent upon YOU, not your opponent. It's not like UW decks have a cornucopia battlefield where there are 12 different permanents, on board combat tricks, or a continuously changing board presence. It's literally just lands, maybe a Snapcaster/Clique, or a PW.
I would ask this of you - do you think it is cheating playing with MPR full arts? Searing Blaze is a card even when people can read the card, don't understand half the time. You think people playing with the full art player reward version are cheaters?