So after reading the last few pages of this forum (sorry, im catching up, not a frequent visitor here) let me get this straight- everyone argues how broken 4c blood is so we respond by banning a card not played in 4c blood (pod) then unban a bunch of combo enablers, mana drain, loam/fastbond/crucible, and Necropotence? In Senseirobs
breakdown a few post above from the results of last season, how often was the winner packing birthing pod in their deck or natural order for the matter? I haven't crunched the numbers so I really don't know. But shouldn't the criteria for a banning be a cards complete dominance to the point of warping the format? That would be reflected in the frequency of the winning decks, right? Let me also say as a green player the banning of pod (and even potentially natural order) doesn't actually bother me nearly as much as the unbanning of far more broken and oppressive cards. Like fastbond, Necropotence, loam, crucible, and mana drain. Wow.
As far as mana drain vs natural order. I would argue you have to look no further than the legacy format to see which is considered more powerful by wotc and the pros. Mana drain is banned BANNED in legacy yet natural order is completely legal but rarely, if ever sees competitive play. Another important strength of mana drain left unmentioned is that as a defensive spell it is potentially AT LEAST as good as the best spell in your opponents deck- capable of completely negating there strongest spell for only 2 mana. And yes on top of that it still has all of the strengths lowman mentioned. I'm not looking to get into a long draw out back and forth debate about this (I don't have the time) but it does seem like only one side of this argument is being represented on this forum so I figured I'd offer my 2c.
Anyway, with all of that being said I'll be trying my hand at the new blend of 100c but I am not optimistic it will be an enjoyable gaming experience- I'll be engaging in the loam/crucible vs graveyard hate arms race along with the rest of you.
I think , that is wrong! Johnny_Rogue is waiting in finals, Sea and I play 'loser's finals' to see who will challenge Johnny. The loser of this match will be 3rd! Yokai is nothing, he should not get a prize whatsoever after being caught with playing cards not on his deck list.
Also just threw up some live commentary on a G3 (of a 3 game match) between ML_Berlin and dawts, as well as 2.5 games live between myself and ML_Berlin...let's just say in one match helm of obedience becomes Sands of Delirium The videos are here: Live Matches
Enjoy and take it easy
--KB
I watched G3 a bit and I gotta agree with lowman... ML_berlin, dust bowl the land! Haha. Good stuff though, always enjoy watching some 100cs. Lowman I've enjoyed your content (the few vids I've had time to watch) and appreciate the time you spend on the format. Now when I play you I'm afraid if I screw up it'll be immortalized in a video for all to see!
1st off, sorry I am late to the party - I don't check the forums as often as I should and may have missed the boat as far as offering suggestions for banning/unbanning.
That said let me start off by saying I think their should be required a high percentage (like 3/4 or more) vote to successfully implement a ban or unban of a card. Why? Because what we want to accomplish here is banning egregiously unbalancing cards that WARP the format. Not just banning the powerful cards of the archetype that might be most popular/successful on any given particular month or week. With that in mind I disagree with almost all of the "ban" suggestions so far. Are the listed cards really warping the format? I think not. The only cards that come close in my opinion would be the "oops I win" style combos of Dark Depths /Thespian Stage and Splinter Twin / Kiki-Jiki but the singleton nature and 100 card requirements of our beloved format tends to just naturally weaken these combos to the point where they are no where near as powerful here as they are in other formats.
As far as unbanning, I believe a measured approach is needed here. If a card gets a 3/4ths or more vote then, as Sstung suggested, unban one but not both of a card that lends itself towards a specific strategy or archetype and see how the initial unban works before adding more candidates at a later date.
To recap:
- No cards currently need banned but I would place the "Oops I win" combos on the watch list (Dark Depths/Thespian Stage, Spinter Twin, Kiki-Jiki).
- I am absolutely opposed to the unbanning of Life from the Loam and Crucible of Worlds but am open to the consideration of most of the other cards on the potential unban list.
Can I ask you why you put the Fires of Yavimaya in your sideboard? What matchup you have in mind for this card, and did you ever use it during the gauntlet matches? Do you still stand behind this card? Why you chose Fires of Yavimaya over other options, for example over the card Red Elemental Blast or Destructive Revelry?
I've been playing this deck or a variant of it for years and its evolved quite a bit. It started out as a "Fires" style midrange deck that tried to ramp out ultra efficient 4cc or 5cc threats (such as Kalonia Hydra, Deadbridge Goliath, Rumbling Slum, or Spellbreaker Behemoth ) with some form of perma-haste effect in play such as Fires of Yavimaya, Sarkhan Vol, Lightning Greaves, Surrak, the Hunt Caller, Xenagos, God of Revels, and the 3cc red enchant that gives all creatures haste and turns lands into 3/3s. While I liked this version, it seemed weak at times to control and/or decks with a ton of removal. Over time, I slowly moved some of the haste effects from the deck in favor of more planeswalkers and/or less aggressive but more value style ETB type creatures. So basically to answer your question, Fires of Yavimaya is a card from an earlier version of the deck that I still at times very much want in the main deck in certain matchups. Most match ups when I am the "beat down" deck I bring it in. It is great vs control and anything with lots of planeswalkers (Hi there ML_Berlin). And speaking of ML_Berlin, I did get Fires of Yav online in our matchup and it worked great vs his deck. A lot of his removal is sorcery speed and he can just deal with your creatures with sweepers etc before summoning sickness wears off all the while continuing to pump his army of Planeswalker. But with Fires online I can snipe away at his loyalty and get some value out of my guys before he sends them to the yard with one of his bazillion sorcery speed sweepers. I still very much like the card in this deck and doubt I'll be removing it anytime soon. It may seem an odd pick but I enjoy it and it fits my strategy.
As far as why no REB... I would be ok with adding it to the SB but there just wasn't room. It is a one time effect and I generally like to have permanent SB effects vs control style decks if possible (Choke, Price of Glory, Fires of Yav). Thats not to say Im opposed to REB, as you can see I run Pyroblast. If we up the SB to 20 cards I guarantee you'd see REB in there haha. Anyway, hope this all makes sense. Thanks for the interest in my goofy deck. In truth, I'm just lucky to have dodged monored so far as that style deck can give me problems if I don't draw my lifegain.
Congrats to all those who still remain alive in the Gauntlet. Only two players have fallen behind schedule (bremp and Tikhon), and they now have 1 final week extension to finish their match.
Johnny Rogue, you are now the leader in this Gauntlet. You are the only player who remains in the Leader's Bracket. In your match vs Sea&Rhythm, were there any memorable moments (eg. key cards which you resolved which turned the tides)? Any screenshots? I want to hear your war stories.
Vs seaandrhythm I believe games 1 and 3 were won off the backs of Xenagos and Primeval Titan after whittling his counters down with other bait cards. In game 1 he had an early true-name nemesis that made me a little nervous but was ultimately forced to lose it to his own damnation after I established enough of a creature advantage. Game 2 I was mana light But had a sylvan library in play. Never saw another land and he had a fast start with pyromancer and glenalendra. In games 1 and 3 Each time I got Primtetime in play I made sure to fetch Homeward Path to guard vs mind control style cards. In game 3 he had a shackles in play but not enough islands to utilize it on much (he stole my joraga but I brought it back EOT with Homeward Path). Overall it was a fun matchup and I look forward to my next opponent!
As a side note, people have questioned me why I don't run the Dark Depths/Thespian Stage combo alongside Primeval Titan and I do agree it is a game ending combo (obviously). But for me personally, I never enjoy winning like that. I'd just rather grind out the win with the overall card advantage and grab manlands or whatever. I do recognize this is not optimal and has probably cost me games here or there but I'm ok with that, I have more fun this way and that's why I'm here.
I'll try to attach a couple pics of the end of each of my games with SeaandRhythm.
Well said Lowman02. I'm not opposed to throwing the Pesky blue-mages a bone and unbanning a few toys. As previously stated I prefer less bans to more in most instances unless there is just a ridiculously aggregious offender.
Anyway, I love this format, wish it would make a comeback. Oh well, I'm thankful for people like ML_Berlin and Michelle for organizing these events and keeping the 100cs spirit alive!
All this talk of banning green cards and green being the best 100cs color? As a loyal green based player allow me to rebut, Nonsense I say! Sounds like spoiled blue-mage talk to me haha!
Let's talk natural order for a minute. Natural order does not come without risk. It's a 4cc sorcery that requires you sacrifice another creature for (presumably) a big pay off in the form of a fattie and/or answer to something. People say you sac "just" a mana dork but that is/can be a fairly significant loss in a green deck. The real threat is the Natural order getting counter spelled and if it does the green player may be unable to recover. You are risking 2 cards for 1. Now if that 1 card comes to fruition then yes look out. I won't deny the potential powerfulness of Natural Order but Overpowered to the point of needing banned? Hardly.
Blue has an equivalent (not exactly) and arguably even better card (at times) in bribery. The reason no one is clamouring for its banning is blue is just overall levels above green in power so bribery, while very good, blends right in with all of blues other overpowered toys. Not so in green where the power baseline is much lower so a card like natural order stands out that much more.
And birthing pod, while good doesn't instawin you the game (typically), it wears the opponent down gradually over a few turns through card advantage. It's easily answered with artifact removal and is relatively costly to get going. Powerful, absolutely but game breaking to the point of needing the ban hammer? I say again absolutely not.
I err more on the side of banning cards that are completely broken, not just overpowered. I agree that some of the cards on the ban list might be worth making legal for a trial run. And I don't even think those are the best green cards. I'd argue sylvan library and primeval Titan are both superior to natural order and birthing pod in sheer power but that's another conversation.
Overall from what I see the meta looks healthy to me. Almost any deck type can be competitive and viable if tuned and played well. It can be expensive to build 100cs decks so a lot of people stick with one deck over a long period of time (I know I do) therefore the meta may stay relatively the same unless new players are introduced. I don't think that's cause for banning regularly used powerful cards. Anyway, that's my 2cents.
I'll happily give this a test slot. As far as the "4 strictly better 5 white drops" assertion, I don't agree. Incinerate is strictly better than Searing Spear. But this vs the top white 5 drops is a completely different comparison. At face value I think I might prefer this guy to baneslayer in many decks. They are both powerful but in different ways. I believe this card is on the power level as the other white 5 drops but it wants (and gives) a different game state that I find interesting.
Only real downside for me is I dont care for flip cards but I'll suffer the mechanic for this guy.
P1- Ancestral, Jitte, Flametongued Kavu, Stoneforge Mystic, Kytheon, Sacred Foundry, Dismember, Sword of War and Peace, Resto Angel, Burst Lightning.
P2- Elspeth (strip mine is tempting also), Looter (upheaval is probably the better pick but I like looter), Lightning Helix, Sun Titan (also like v. Clique here), Sword of Light and Shadow, Gideon, Impulse, Polluted Delta, Banisher Priest, Phyrexian Revoker
P3- Mox Emerald, Consecrated Sphinx (really wanted Izzet signet here since it looks like I'm 3 colors but can't justify it over the Sphinx), Wrath of God, Steam Vent, Land Tax, Temple of Epiphany (Snapcaster here but I felt like I needed the fixing this late in the draft), Scalding Tarn, Grim Lavamancer, Bloodstained Mire, Blade Splicer, Pridemage, Seeker.
My deck would be something like:
Ancestral
Jitte
FTK
SFM
Kytheon
Sword of War and Peace
Sword of Light and Shadow
Gideon
Dismember
Resto Angel
Burst Lightning
Elspeth
Looter
Helix
Sun Titan
Impulse
Phyrexian Revoker
Consecrated Sphinx
Wrath of God
Land Tax
Grim Lavamancer
Bladesplicer
Steam Vent
Bloodstained Mire
Scalding Tarn
Temple of Epiphany
Mox Emerald
Polluted Delta
Sacred Foundry
11x appropriate assorted basic land
Elvish Pyromancer G
Creature - Elf Wizard
T: Add R to your mana pool.
1/1
breakdown a few post above from the results of last season, how often was the winner packing birthing pod in their deck or natural order for the matter? I haven't crunched the numbers so I really don't know. But shouldn't the criteria for a banning be a cards complete dominance to the point of warping the format? That would be reflected in the frequency of the winning decks, right? Let me also say as a green player the banning of pod (and even potentially natural order) doesn't actually bother me nearly as much as the unbanning of far more broken and oppressive cards. Like fastbond, Necropotence, loam, crucible, and mana drain. Wow.
As far as mana drain vs natural order. I would argue you have to look no further than the legacy format to see which is considered more powerful by wotc and the pros. Mana drain is banned BANNED in legacy yet natural order is completely legal but rarely, if ever sees competitive play. Another important strength of mana drain left unmentioned is that as a defensive spell it is potentially AT LEAST as good as the best spell in your opponents deck- capable of completely negating there strongest spell for only 2 mana. And yes on top of that it still has all of the strengths lowman mentioned. I'm not looking to get into a long draw out back and forth debate about this (I don't have the time) but it does seem like only one side of this argument is being represented on this forum so I figured I'd offer my 2c.
Anyway, with all of that being said I'll be trying my hand at the new blend of 100c but I am not optimistic it will be an enjoyable gaming experience- I'll be engaging in the loam/crucible vs graveyard hate arms race along with the rest of you.
-Jonny_Rogue
I have to agree, I have yet to be defeated!
I watched G3 a bit and I gotta agree with lowman... ML_berlin, dust bowl the land! Haha. Good stuff though, always enjoy watching some 100cs. Lowman I've enjoyed your content (the few vids I've had time to watch) and appreciate the time you spend on the format. Now when I play you I'm afraid if I screw up it'll be immortalized in a video for all to see!
That said let me start off by saying I think their should be required a high percentage (like 3/4 or more) vote to successfully implement a ban or unban of a card. Why? Because what we want to accomplish here is banning egregiously unbalancing cards that WARP the format. Not just banning the powerful cards of the archetype that might be most popular/successful on any given particular month or week. With that in mind I disagree with almost all of the "ban" suggestions so far. Are the listed cards really warping the format? I think not. The only cards that come close in my opinion would be the "oops I win" style combos of Dark Depths /Thespian Stage and Splinter Twin / Kiki-Jiki but the singleton nature and 100 card requirements of our beloved format tends to just naturally weaken these combos to the point where they are no where near as powerful here as they are in other formats.
As far as unbanning, I believe a measured approach is needed here. If a card gets a 3/4ths or more vote then, as Sstung suggested, unban one but not both of a card that lends itself towards a specific strategy or archetype and see how the initial unban works before adding more candidates at a later date.
To recap:
- No cards currently need banned but I would place the "Oops I win" combos on the watch list (Dark Depths/Thespian Stage, Spinter Twin, Kiki-Jiki).
- I am absolutely opposed to the unbanning of Life from the Loam and Crucible of Worlds but am open to the consideration of most of the other cards on the potential unban list.
I've been playing this deck or a variant of it for years and its evolved quite a bit. It started out as a "Fires" style midrange deck that tried to ramp out ultra efficient 4cc or 5cc threats (such as Kalonia Hydra, Deadbridge Goliath, Rumbling Slum, or Spellbreaker Behemoth ) with some form of perma-haste effect in play such as Fires of Yavimaya, Sarkhan Vol, Lightning Greaves, Surrak, the Hunt Caller, Xenagos, God of Revels, and the 3cc red enchant that gives all creatures haste and turns lands into 3/3s. While I liked this version, it seemed weak at times to control and/or decks with a ton of removal. Over time, I slowly moved some of the haste effects from the deck in favor of more planeswalkers and/or less aggressive but more value style ETB type creatures. So basically to answer your question, Fires of Yavimaya is a card from an earlier version of the deck that I still at times very much want in the main deck in certain matchups. Most match ups when I am the "beat down" deck I bring it in. It is great vs control and anything with lots of planeswalkers (Hi there ML_Berlin). And speaking of ML_Berlin, I did get Fires of Yav online in our matchup and it worked great vs his deck. A lot of his removal is sorcery speed and he can just deal with your creatures with sweepers etc before summoning sickness wears off all the while continuing to pump his army of Planeswalker. But with Fires online I can snipe away at his loyalty and get some value out of my guys before he sends them to the yard with one of his bazillion sorcery speed sweepers. I still very much like the card in this deck and doubt I'll be removing it anytime soon. It may seem an odd pick but I enjoy it and it fits my strategy.
As far as why no REB... I would be ok with adding it to the SB but there just wasn't room. It is a one time effect and I generally like to have permanent SB effects vs control style decks if possible (Choke, Price of Glory, Fires of Yav). Thats not to say Im opposed to REB, as you can see I run Pyroblast. If we up the SB to 20 cards I guarantee you'd see REB in there haha. Anyway, hope this all makes sense. Thanks for the interest in my goofy deck. In truth, I'm just lucky to have dodged monored so far as that style deck can give me problems if I don't draw my lifegain.
Vs seaandrhythm I believe games 1 and 3 were won off the backs of Xenagos and Primeval Titan after whittling his counters down with other bait cards. In game 1 he had an early true-name nemesis that made me a little nervous but was ultimately forced to lose it to his own damnation after I established enough of a creature advantage. Game 2 I was mana light But had a sylvan library in play. Never saw another land and he had a fast start with pyromancer and glenalendra. In games 1 and 3 Each time I got Primtetime in play I made sure to fetch Homeward Path to guard vs mind control style cards. In game 3 he had a shackles in play but not enough islands to utilize it on much (he stole my joraga but I brought it back EOT with Homeward Path). Overall it was a fun matchup and I look forward to my next opponent!
As a side note, people have questioned me why I don't run the Dark Depths/Thespian Stage combo alongside Primeval Titan and I do agree it is a game ending combo (obviously). But for me personally, I never enjoy winning like that. I'd just rather grind out the win with the overall card advantage and grab manlands or whatever. I do recognize this is not optimal and has probably cost me games here or there but I'm ok with that, I have more fun this way and that's why I'm here.
I'll try to attach a couple pics of the end of each of my games with SeaandRhythm.
Anyway, I love this format, wish it would make a comeback. Oh well, I'm thankful for people like ML_Berlin and Michelle for organizing these events and keeping the 100cs spirit alive!
Let's talk natural order for a minute. Natural order does not come without risk. It's a 4cc sorcery that requires you sacrifice another creature for (presumably) a big pay off in the form of a fattie and/or answer to something. People say you sac "just" a mana dork but that is/can be a fairly significant loss in a green deck. The real threat is the Natural order getting counter spelled and if it does the green player may be unable to recover. You are risking 2 cards for 1. Now if that 1 card comes to fruition then yes look out. I won't deny the potential powerfulness of Natural Order but Overpowered to the point of needing banned? Hardly.
Blue has an equivalent (not exactly) and arguably even better card (at times) in bribery. The reason no one is clamouring for its banning is blue is just overall levels above green in power so bribery, while very good, blends right in with all of blues other overpowered toys. Not so in green where the power baseline is much lower so a card like natural order stands out that much more.
And birthing pod, while good doesn't instawin you the game (typically), it wears the opponent down gradually over a few turns through card advantage. It's easily answered with artifact removal and is relatively costly to get going. Powerful, absolutely but game breaking to the point of needing the ban hammer? I say again absolutely not.
I err more on the side of banning cards that are completely broken, not just overpowered. I agree that some of the cards on the ban list might be worth making legal for a trial run. And I don't even think those are the best green cards. I'd argue sylvan library and primeval Titan are both superior to natural order and birthing pod in sheer power but that's another conversation.
Overall from what I see the meta looks healthy to me. Almost any deck type can be competitive and viable if tuned and played well. It can be expensive to build 100cs decks so a lot of people stick with one deck over a long period of time (I know I do) therefore the meta may stay relatively the same unless new players are introduced. I don't think that's cause for banning regularly used powerful cards. Anyway, that's my 2cents.
Only real downside for me is I dont care for flip cards but I'll suffer the mechanic for this guy.
P1- Ancestral, Jitte, Flametongued Kavu, Stoneforge Mystic, Kytheon, Sacred Foundry, Dismember, Sword of War and Peace, Resto Angel, Burst Lightning.
P2- Elspeth (strip mine is tempting also), Looter (upheaval is probably the better pick but I like looter), Lightning Helix, Sun Titan (also like v. Clique here), Sword of Light and Shadow, Gideon, Impulse, Polluted Delta, Banisher Priest, Phyrexian Revoker
P3- Mox Emerald, Consecrated Sphinx (really wanted Izzet signet here since it looks like I'm 3 colors but can't justify it over the Sphinx), Wrath of God, Steam Vent, Land Tax, Temple of Epiphany (Snapcaster here but I felt like I needed the fixing this late in the draft), Scalding Tarn, Grim Lavamancer, Bloodstained Mire, Blade Splicer, Pridemage, Seeker.
My deck would be something like:
Ancestral
Jitte
FTK
SFM
Kytheon
Sword of War and Peace
Sword of Light and Shadow
Gideon
Dismember
Resto Angel
Burst Lightning
Elspeth
Looter
Helix
Sun Titan
Impulse
Phyrexian Revoker
Consecrated Sphinx
Wrath of God
Land Tax
Grim Lavamancer
Bladesplicer
Steam Vent
Bloodstained Mire
Scalding Tarn
Temple of Epiphany
Mox Emerald
Polluted Delta
Sacred Foundry
11x appropriate assorted basic land