I was just going to make a thread for this deck before I noticed this sticky, and figured it made as much sense in here as anywhere else. I'm going to be playing this list at a local modern tournament tomorrow. It won't be anything big, but I'm looking forward to playing the deck.
It is not a typical ninja list, though it's well possible that someone else has posted something similar in here already. It's based off of an old Legacy list called "The Rat Pack", and it looks a little something like this:
So there may be another tribal theme overriding the Ninjas, but it still uses them to generate CA, and who knows maybe someone else will get some ideas from the list. I'm sold on every slot except the Night's Whisper, that could easily be more removal, or more hand disruption, and I'm not really sure where to take it.
I'm not running Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni despite it being a pretty amazing card, simply because even it's Ninjutsu cost is a little too steep. And the Patron has the ability to just come out of nowhere, even if his ability isn't anything impressive the body he brings with him for as little as 2 mana at instant speed certainly is.
Here's my problem with Karn. I know he's a monster to most board positions, but in terms of what he accomplishes for this deck, he's just a Liliana that costs 4 more to cast. His -3 is the only really consistently relevant ability, but unlike Liliana I can't properly interact with him using proliferate. It would be very difficult to keep him able to -3 without having to pause to use his +4. Similarly proliferate isn't really going to help me get to his ult any faster than just using his + ability, and once there it's not like I've any interest in him still having loyalty after using it. The other thing is that the only slot he could potentially take in the list is the one Sorin's Vengeance is filling, and I have to admit I'm pretty partial to it.
I do have to admit that Nexus isn't quite as strong as it was in previous builds running Grim Affliction. The decreased number of proliferate spells means it's that much harder to win through poision, but they were never really a primary win-con anyways. They represent potential, and they're worth the slot just for it. The deck is light on early plays, and sometimes just getting in there for a poison on turn 2 can make a big difference (not that I really recommend it in an environment full of Gutshot et all). They provide you with options, and that's never really a bad thing.
I'm not really sure what deck could actually reach the critical mass of threats that you're talking about in the current meta though. I'm running a lot of weenie hate because that's what the meta is (for the most part), and for anything else my walkers generally cover any additional reach I might need.
And thanks Amaury, though I have to say I haven't actually touched Cockatrice yet, so I'm glad to see there are others out there working on similar builds. I know there were some guys on here building a b/r Aggro shell using Liliana/Chandra/Gambit/Volt Charge, and the red creatures that use +1/+1 counters, + phoenix for CA with Liliana.
Solemn actually wouldn't be too bad in here, but the problem is that the sphere plays a pretty crucial role in making sure your walkers actually hit on/before their expected turns. The other thing is that the curve of the deck is so heavy on three drops that being able to get to 6 as fast as possible can be a big help. And the sphere manages that without exacerbating it by adding another 4 drop in to the mix.
I put up a bunch of explanations for the card choices, most of it is pretty obvious stuff, but I'm always looking for more input so anything that can provide others with more information seems reasonable.
I've been meaning to toss this up for a little while now. I've been running this list for the better part of a month now and it's been doing pretty stellar. Initially I built it as a bit of a joke standard deck for our casual standard tournaments, but it's actually been performing very well, and I've finally settled on a list I'm actually content with.
The Mana base is pretty straightforward, there are no basic restrictions to this deck (like playing with dungrove), so the duals are no surprise, and the Inkmoth provide a win-con in addition to the proliferate. The split on basics is due to the overwhelming need for multiple black sources, despite the deck being primarily red, the black requirements are all pretty steep and it hurts when you can reliably cast them on curve.
Sphere of the Suns
This is not a terribly good card. But that said there really isn't an alternative. Short of running green for Rampant Growth there really isn't an alternative that fits the same slot. It ramps to 4, rarely runs out of counters (I haven't had it happen yet), and it provides some flexibility for both on-colour cards and for paying the full mana cost on Tezzeret's Gambit in matchups where that life is relevant. Similarly being able to flashback Ancient Grudge out of the board adds a lot to the merits of running it in the first place (Grudge, not Sphere).
Tumble Magnet
This thing can be oppressively good in both shutting out potential threats, and maintaining the dominant board position. If not for Proliferate it would likely be much worse, but they don't often run out of counters and that can make them function like Oblivion Ring. Originally this slot was Shrine of Burning Rage, which gave me another out for removal/finishers, but it never really felt as relevant as it might in a faster deck. Not to mention the fact that it has minimal immediate effect on the board state, which really didn't help when you just needed to stabilize.
Liliana of the Veil
She is easily the weakest of the three walkers in the list, but she plays a role much similar to Tumble Magnet, albeit with a fair bit more flexibility. As there really isn't much way to break the symmetry of her first ability I don't tend to really use it too often, unless the opponent is short on cards, and I can afford to pitch something. She's here for her -2, and Proliferate means I can keep resetting her to that point for multiple activations. Plus sometimes you get to Fact or Fiction your opponent's board. There are times when I will run her out, or already have her on the table and just not activate her because it just isn't worth it, but when that's happening I know I'm ahead of the game anyways, and she'll just be ready to go when there is a reason to.
Chandra, the Firebrand
She is pretty much the core of the deck. I don't get much mileage out of her -6, but that's more to do with the meta than anything else, she routinely has that much loyalty, and even if my opponents feel that is threatening enough to try and sabotage, I'm rarely considering it as an option. Sometimes that is definitely nice to have access to, but it unless it's an endgame scenario she can often accomplish similar results with her -2. Which is the real money ability on her, it drives the proliferate shenanigans, and it means all your instants/sorceries have the potential to reach much further. With her Slagstorm can kill Titans and Devil's Play and Sorin's Vengeance will win games.
Sorin Markov
This guy is a monster. I'd never really had much interest in playing him before I put this deck together, but I can't get over how unfair he can be. His +2 is the real deal, the combined effort of killing a creature, gaining a life, and the +2 loyalty can be too much for some decks to deal with without seriously compromising their gameplan. The other two abilities certainly get their mileage as well, the -3 provides a decent reset button/damage source, and works wonders with Sorin's Vengeance. And the -7, even if I rarely use it, will end most games when you do. Especially with more and more people leaning towards Spellskite in their mainboards. On multiple occasions I've been able to kill someone with their own spellskite using his Ult.
Geistflame
To me it speaks volumes about the strengths of this card that I'm relying on it almost entirely to deal with my opponents for the first few turns of the game. It works wonders against a large portion of the meta, and provides some extra reach later on as well. It's just a very capable spell.
Devil's Play
This is the most recent addition to the deck, it gives me an extra damage source both for removal and winning, and it can really come out of nowhere to steal games from opponents with Chandra. And the Flashback means that I can run it out early if it's necessary, and still get some mileage out of it later on down the road. Also some cute math: At seven mana with a Chandra up and running it will deal flat out 20 damage over two turns.
Volt Charge
Helps make the deck tick. There's not much to say other than it's burn + proliferate, and helps get a bunch of extra mileage out of cards that might be worse otherwise.
Slagstorm
This card is pretty much perfect for the deck. And not just because I have no creatures to lose anyways. It hits all creatures (even fliers), and won't hit players unless I want it to, which means I can use it to maintain the upper board state without helping my opponent's clock, and still use this as an additional means of winning in the late game when I'm closing it out with damage.
Tezzeret's Gambit
See Volt Charge. It's card draw + proliferate, and it must look completely unfair from the other side of the table when copied off of Chandra.
Sorin's Vengeance
It wins games? No that's not right, it steals games. Even without Chandra, the lifegain alone can put the win out of the opponent's reach, and virtually guarantee your walkers will get there for you. I can't see running any more of this though, as it really isn't something you want in your opener.
The deck does an able job of playing the control role vs aggro, or the aggressor role in the control matchup, until it can establish either an oppressive board state, or simply win the game. I've had routinely positive matches against Wolf Run, UR Counterburn, and just about any white/blue based aggro strategies. It runs in to trouble with mono red post board, and Mono Black Infect as Phyrexian Crusader is a nightmare to play against.
Earlier builds I had ran Grim Affliction, Shrine of Burning Rage, and Black Sun's Zenith, and while they all contribute to a better MBI matchup they don't do much in the majority of other matchups (aside from Shrine which does afford an additional form of removal/inevitability), they were replaced with cards that promoted a more stable 60 against the majority of the field (Devil's Play, Tumble Magnet, and Slagstorm respectively).
Most of the card choices are pretty self explanatory, I'm running Sorin over Karn Liberated as his cost and abilities all suit the deck much better. And while Karn can be effective against most decks, Sorin's abilities are always very strong/relevant and he can beat some archetypes with minimal support (Mono Red, Counterburn).
Sorin's Vengeance looks more cute than effective on paper, but it really pulls it's weight, and it just wins games with Chandra. It could potentially be replaced with more Devil's Play, but honestly I'd have a hard time justifying it. It works too well with the walkers, and the lifegain off a single cast can win you games on it's own.
Here's the list I ran today for a simple standard tourney at our local store. I finished 3-2 after a positive start at 3-0, but I had a lot of fun with the deck, and I never felt like it let me down. I beat 2 R/U Counter-Burn, and a Dungrove Green list, and lost to G/W tokens in 2, and Mono Black Infect in a contested 3.
I've been meaning to build this for a while (since M12 hit), but finally got around to pulling it together. I know this doesn't really fit the same archetype this thread is following, but the card selection was close enough I figured I could at least share what I got out of playing it.
First off this list needed another land, I was having trouble reliably hitting 6, and that was problematic for the number of 3 drops in here. I also didn't really mind not having Phoenixes for Liliana, the amount of Proliferate meant that I could pretty much just keep her around for edicting. That said, I could probably go down to 3 of her in the main, as I'm not getting much benefit out of her +1. Sorin on the other hand was just amazing, he seems capable of just winning matches on his own (won me a game un-assisted), and he certainly fits the deck. I'll likely be aiming for another 1-2 somewhere in my 75.
The SB was pretty awful. The lifegain (Tribute/Batterskull), were both handy to have, but everything else was pretty meh. The Inferno Titan's make for a nice surprise game 2, but they could probably just as easily be any bomby dude, and there's probably something more relevant. I also definitely need some Ratchet Bombs and/or artifact removal, as GW Tokens was just such a blowout.
But I do need to restate that I'm not recommending you compare treespeaker to archdruid in flat out card to card terms. Just in terms of ability to ramp, and the idea that they're both only liable to live as long as each other.
Treespeaker should never really hit "lord" status. Unless you really have nothing better to do, in which case you're beyond winning, or are in very dire straits. I am still talking about it in a standard elf list though. There's a lot to be said for having the mana treespeaker provides, and it certainly doesn't hurt to be less reliant on archdruid to keep up the level of mana you want.
All I can say is give it a spin, you might be surprised. I started with your average Elf build and through testing this is where I've wound up. It doesn't have to overextend the way your average build would, it can answer a large number of cards that adversely affect a regular list, and it the creature count and board presence are nowhere near as low as you might think looking at it on paper. Green Sun's is a creature (for all intents and purposes), and there are 5 token generators on top of the actual creature count.
The other thing to keep in mind is that with the amount of removal in the format, and with the threat that some of the "legendary" permanents represent, drawing multiples is honestly never a bad thing. The only potentially dead draw is Superion, and the the presence he represents on the board, and the number of pluses he brings to the deck far outweigh that downside.
(Edit): And to respond to the Oran-Rief comments, I find them slow, and without warcallers in the main there was no real reason to run more than 2. I'd appreciate if you didn't assume I don't understand the advantages of these cards together (Or didn't assume I just started with this elf build, without going through the accepted practices first), but through process of elimination and relevances they simply don't belong at a higher count.
And to say something for Treespeaker, the problem here is that you are comparing it to Llanowar/Arbor. Which is not the appropriate comparison. In terms of average lifespan and ramping potential it should be looked at as Archdruid's 5-8 (admittedly usually 5-7). His level up on turn 2 works similarly to playing out mana elves before taping an Archdruid. And in these terms it really is similar to Archdruid, you wouldn't expect the archdruid to give you additional mana on turn 2, so why expect it of the treespeaker. The other thing is that, on turn 3 Treespeaker actually has a higher potential mana cap than Archdruid (Treespeaker -7, Archdruid-6), which can be relevant. More so in my list (Karn, Wildspeaker + Acidic Slime, etc), but that's not to say it wouldn't be relevant in a standard build. And there's also the fact that you have to commit less to the board to see the ramp from treespeaker on turn 3 compared to a turn 1 mana elf, and a turn 2 Archdruid.
I've been running Elves off and on for a while now, and decided to break it out for Game Day today. I went 4-1 finishing 2nd out of 20 or so people. Playing (in order): Edlrazi Green (2-0), Caw Blade (2-0), Mono Black (1-2), Caw Blade (2-1), Mono Black (2-0). My list is not exactly standard fare but I figured I'd post it up anyways.
I went with Superion over Joraga Warcaller for a couple reasons, but mainly because the Warcaller just never really felt like it was doing anything for me. It would show up, be a bad Elvish Champion and never really feel like he was making a major contribution to my board presence. Where as Superion was only uncastable very rarely, survives Dismember and Go for the Throat, and can block Sword of Feast and Famine. Plus sometimes you just get to live the dream and cast him on turn 2 at a bewildered opponent.
I've found that despite being unable to have both it and Wildspeaker on the table at the same time Primal Hunter does everything Nissa ever did for me just an awful lot better, and at far smaller cost in cards. Plus he stays alive more easily, and provides some desperately needed CA. Similarily Karn is a breeze to cast and gives the deck a big boost in flexibility at answering threats.
Best part of the day was being on the play against Caw and going:
Turn 1 Treespeaker
Turn 2 Superion
Turn 3 Acidic Slime hitting his second land. Go team.
Except that isn't a typical Legacy Burn deck. In fact it pretty much flies against all conventions of Legacy Burn. I'll admit it placed well, but I get the feeling that's more a matter of deck to metagame than individual card choices. Notice the deck isn't even called Burn?
I'm not here to tell people what to run, if you want to then go for it. But the goals of the archetype are, as always, to minimize dead draws, and focus on immediacy, effectiveness, and virtual card advantage. And neither Lavamancer nor Figure conform to those ideals.
Because that is a Red Deck wins kind of line up. Not a Burn line up. The important thing to keep in mind is that even Grim Lavamancer does not belong in this archetype. He's too slow, too prone to removal, and too awful a draw off the top. As I had said in the initial post, of all the creatures available to us, Goblin Guide, and Keldon Marauders are probably the ONLY ones worth running. Hellspark Elemental squeaks in on mitigating factors, but the important distinction is that unlike alternative creatures, he will deal damage the turn it hits play.
Read it as this: If the creature can't immediately double as a burn spell when drawn off the top of your library, it's not even worth considering.
Creatures that don't fit the criteria just give the opponent something to do with their otherwise worthless removal, and lessens the deck's virtual card advantage. This is the same reason I didn't immediately include Shrine of Burning Rage, though it's definitely worth testing. Because it gives Zoo (and other decks) something to take away from you, and it doesn't work as a very good draw off the top (it's completely dead).
I think Figure of Destiny is a 100% auto include. Just not sure on the nuber of them. Leaning towards 3. I think 4 is too much. 2 might be ok. I'd replace Keldon Marauders with it.
No?
I can only assume that means TL;DR? Given that it flies in the face of everything I was talking about. Figure might belong in RDW, but this is not RDW, and a mana sink that is an atrocious top deck will never replace the most consistent creature in the deck.
What about Browbeat? Either way they do it, it is useful to you. Main concern is that it is a sorcery so it can slow you down.
I was going to do a little blurb about Browbeat, because, well, it looks tempting. But as Admiral Ackbar famously said... It's a trap!
Sorry, had to. The thing is Browbeat will never get you the outcome you want/need. It can never be the topdeck that kills someone, and without access to Fireblast there's even less reason to consider it.
Here is a good article going through a long (very long) description of the processes involved in the card, and why it's less than it seems.
there is a primer for this already, titled "red deck wins", and includes burn.
OK, but they're not remotely the same decks. While it may be a catchall for now, it's going to be too unreasonable to maintain all the different mono red archetypes under one thread.
Also, I agree on Flames, there should be something else, but it will need to be felt out. However, Shard Volley is a Lightning Bolt. That's more or less where the discussion ends. It's only situational if you have no mountains, or are casting before other lightning bolts, which shouldn't happen.
And Searing Blaze is a sideboard option, sadly, it's hard to pull off properly, but also a terrible if not dead draw against certain decks.
It is not a typical ninja list, though it's well possible that someone else has posted something similar in here already. It's based off of an old Legacy list called "The Rat Pack", and it looks a little something like this:
4 Swarmyard
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Typhoid Rats
4 Skullsnatcher
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Chittering Rats
3 Throat Slitter
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
2 Patron of the Nezumi
3 Infiltration Lens
3 Night's Whisper
4 Liliana of the Veil
So there may be another tribal theme overriding the Ninjas, but it still uses them to generate CA, and who knows maybe someone else will get some ideas from the list. I'm sold on every slot except the Night's Whisper, that could easily be more removal, or more hand disruption, and I'm not really sure where to take it.
I'm not running Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni despite it being a pretty amazing card, simply because even it's Ninjutsu cost is a little too steep. And the Patron has the ability to just come out of nowhere, even if his ability isn't anything impressive the body he brings with him for as little as 2 mana at instant speed certainly is.
I do have to admit that Nexus isn't quite as strong as it was in previous builds running Grim Affliction. The decreased number of proliferate spells means it's that much harder to win through poision, but they were never really a primary win-con anyways. They represent potential, and they're worth the slot just for it. The deck is light on early plays, and sometimes just getting in there for a poison on turn 2 can make a big difference (not that I really recommend it in an environment full of Gutshot et all). They provide you with options, and that's never really a bad thing.
I'm not really sure what deck could actually reach the critical mass of threats that you're talking about in the current meta though. I'm running a lot of weenie hate because that's what the meta is (for the most part), and for anything else my walkers generally cover any additional reach I might need.
And thanks Amaury, though I have to say I haven't actually touched Cockatrice yet, so I'm glad to see there are others out there working on similar builds. I know there were some guys on here building a b/r Aggro shell using Liliana/Chandra/Gambit/Volt Charge, and the red creatures that use +1/+1 counters, + phoenix for CA with Liliana.
I put up a bunch of explanations for the card choices, most of it is pretty obvious stuff, but I'm always looking for more input so anything that can provide others with more information seems reasonable.
4 Blackleave Cliffs
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Inkmoth Nexus
7 Swmap
5 Mountain
4 Sphere of the Suns
4 Tumble Magnet
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Chandra, the Firebrand
2 Sorin Markov
2 Devil's Play
4 Volt Charge
3 Slagstorm
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
2 Sorin's Vengeance
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Tribute to Hunger
3 Witchbane Orb
2 Batterskull
Card Choices:
The Mana base is pretty straightforward, there are no basic restrictions to this deck (like playing with dungrove), so the duals are no surprise, and the Inkmoth provide a win-con in addition to the proliferate. The split on basics is due to the overwhelming need for multiple black sources, despite the deck being primarily red, the black requirements are all pretty steep and it hurts when you can reliably cast them on curve.
Sphere of the Suns
This is not a terribly good card. But that said there really isn't an alternative. Short of running green for Rampant Growth there really isn't an alternative that fits the same slot. It ramps to 4, rarely runs out of counters (I haven't had it happen yet), and it provides some flexibility for both on-colour cards and for paying the full mana cost on Tezzeret's Gambit in matchups where that life is relevant. Similarly being able to flashback Ancient Grudge out of the board adds a lot to the merits of running it in the first place (Grudge, not Sphere).
Tumble Magnet
This thing can be oppressively good in both shutting out potential threats, and maintaining the dominant board position. If not for Proliferate it would likely be much worse, but they don't often run out of counters and that can make them function like Oblivion Ring. Originally this slot was Shrine of Burning Rage, which gave me another out for removal/finishers, but it never really felt as relevant as it might in a faster deck. Not to mention the fact that it has minimal immediate effect on the board state, which really didn't help when you just needed to stabilize.
Liliana of the Veil
She is easily the weakest of the three walkers in the list, but she plays a role much similar to Tumble Magnet, albeit with a fair bit more flexibility. As there really isn't much way to break the symmetry of her first ability I don't tend to really use it too often, unless the opponent is short on cards, and I can afford to pitch something. She's here for her -2, and Proliferate means I can keep resetting her to that point for multiple activations. Plus sometimes you get to Fact or Fiction your opponent's board. There are times when I will run her out, or already have her on the table and just not activate her because it just isn't worth it, but when that's happening I know I'm ahead of the game anyways, and she'll just be ready to go when there is a reason to.
Chandra, the Firebrand
She is pretty much the core of the deck. I don't get much mileage out of her -6, but that's more to do with the meta than anything else, she routinely has that much loyalty, and even if my opponents feel that is threatening enough to try and sabotage, I'm rarely considering it as an option. Sometimes that is definitely nice to have access to, but it unless it's an endgame scenario she can often accomplish similar results with her -2. Which is the real money ability on her, it drives the proliferate shenanigans, and it means all your instants/sorceries have the potential to reach much further. With her Slagstorm can kill Titans and Devil's Play and Sorin's Vengeance will win games.
Sorin Markov
This guy is a monster. I'd never really had much interest in playing him before I put this deck together, but I can't get over how unfair he can be. His +2 is the real deal, the combined effort of killing a creature, gaining a life, and the +2 loyalty can be too much for some decks to deal with without seriously compromising their gameplan. The other two abilities certainly get their mileage as well, the -3 provides a decent reset button/damage source, and works wonders with Sorin's Vengeance. And the -7, even if I rarely use it, will end most games when you do. Especially with more and more people leaning towards Spellskite in their mainboards. On multiple occasions I've been able to kill someone with their own spellskite using his Ult.
Geistflame
To me it speaks volumes about the strengths of this card that I'm relying on it almost entirely to deal with my opponents for the first few turns of the game. It works wonders against a large portion of the meta, and provides some extra reach later on as well. It's just a very capable spell.
Devil's Play
This is the most recent addition to the deck, it gives me an extra damage source both for removal and winning, and it can really come out of nowhere to steal games from opponents with Chandra. And the Flashback means that I can run it out early if it's necessary, and still get some mileage out of it later on down the road. Also some cute math: At seven mana with a Chandra up and running it will deal flat out 20 damage over two turns.
Volt Charge
Helps make the deck tick. There's not much to say other than it's burn + proliferate, and helps get a bunch of extra mileage out of cards that might be worse otherwise.
Slagstorm
This card is pretty much perfect for the deck. And not just because I have no creatures to lose anyways. It hits all creatures (even fliers), and won't hit players unless I want it to, which means I can use it to maintain the upper board state without helping my opponent's clock, and still use this as an additional means of winning in the late game when I'm closing it out with damage.
Tezzeret's Gambit
See Volt Charge. It's card draw + proliferate, and it must look completely unfair from the other side of the table when copied off of Chandra.
Sorin's Vengeance
It wins games? No that's not right, it steals games. Even without Chandra, the lifegain alone can put the win out of the opponent's reach, and virtually guarantee your walkers will get there for you. I can't see running any more of this though, as it really isn't something you want in your opener.
The deck does an able job of playing the control role vs aggro, or the aggressor role in the control matchup, until it can establish either an oppressive board state, or simply win the game. I've had routinely positive matches against Wolf Run, UR Counterburn, and just about any white/blue based aggro strategies. It runs in to trouble with mono red post board, and Mono Black Infect as Phyrexian Crusader is a nightmare to play against.
Earlier builds I had ran Grim Affliction, Shrine of Burning Rage, and Black Sun's Zenith, and while they all contribute to a better MBI matchup they don't do much in the majority of other matchups (aside from Shrine which does afford an additional form of removal/inevitability), they were replaced with cards that promoted a more stable 60 against the majority of the field (Devil's Play, Tumble Magnet, and Slagstorm respectively).
Most of the card choices are pretty self explanatory, I'm running Sorin over Karn Liberated as his cost and abilities all suit the deck much better. And while Karn can be effective against most decks, Sorin's abilities are always very strong/relevant and he can beat some archetypes with minimal support (Mono Red, Counterburn).
Sorin's Vengeance looks more cute than effective on paper, but it really pulls it's weight, and it just wins games with Chandra. It could potentially be replaced with more Devil's Play, but honestly I'd have a hard time justifying it. It works too well with the walkers, and the lifegain off a single cast can win you games on it's own.
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Blackleave Cliffs
5 Mountain
6 Swamp
4 Geist Flame
3 Black Sun's Zenith
4 Volt Charge
3 Grim Affliction
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
2 Sorrin's Vengeance
4 Sphere of the Suns
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Chandra, the Firebrand
1 Sorin Markov
3 Slagstorm
3 Tribute to Hunger
2 Batterskull
3 Inferno Titan
2 Karn Liberated
2 Grimoire of the Damned
I've been meaning to build this for a while (since M12 hit), but finally got around to pulling it together. I know this doesn't really fit the same archetype this thread is following, but the card selection was close enough I figured I could at least share what I got out of playing it.
First off this list needed another land, I was having trouble reliably hitting 6, and that was problematic for the number of 3 drops in here. I also didn't really mind not having Phoenixes for Liliana, the amount of Proliferate meant that I could pretty much just keep her around for edicting. That said, I could probably go down to 3 of her in the main, as I'm not getting much benefit out of her +1. Sorin on the other hand was just amazing, he seems capable of just winning matches on his own (won me a game un-assisted), and he certainly fits the deck. I'll likely be aiming for another 1-2 somewhere in my 75.
The SB was pretty awful. The lifegain (Tribute/Batterskull), were both handy to have, but everything else was pretty meh. The Inferno Titan's make for a nice surprise game 2, but they could probably just as easily be any bomby dude, and there's probably something more relevant. I also definitely need some Ratchet Bombs and/or artifact removal, as GW Tokens was just such a blowout.
But I do need to restate that I'm not recommending you compare treespeaker to archdruid in flat out card to card terms. Just in terms of ability to ramp, and the idea that they're both only liable to live as long as each other.
Treespeaker should never really hit "lord" status. Unless you really have nothing better to do, in which case you're beyond winning, or are in very dire straits. I am still talking about it in a standard elf list though. There's a lot to be said for having the mana treespeaker provides, and it certainly doesn't hurt to be less reliant on archdruid to keep up the level of mana you want.
The other thing to keep in mind is that with the amount of removal in the format, and with the threat that some of the "legendary" permanents represent, drawing multiples is honestly never a bad thing. The only potentially dead draw is Superion, and the the presence he represents on the board, and the number of pluses he brings to the deck far outweigh that downside.
(Edit): And to respond to the Oran-Rief comments, I find them slow, and without warcallers in the main there was no real reason to run more than 2. I'd appreciate if you didn't assume I don't understand the advantages of these cards together (Or didn't assume I just started with this elf build, without going through the accepted practices first), but through process of elimination and relevances they simply don't belong at a higher count.
And to say something for Treespeaker, the problem here is that you are comparing it to Llanowar/Arbor. Which is not the appropriate comparison. In terms of average lifespan and ramping potential it should be looked at as Archdruid's 5-8 (admittedly usually 5-7). His level up on turn 2 works similarly to playing out mana elves before taping an Archdruid. And in these terms it really is similar to Archdruid, you wouldn't expect the archdruid to give you additional mana on turn 2, so why expect it of the treespeaker. The other thing is that, on turn 3 Treespeaker actually has a higher potential mana cap than Archdruid (Treespeaker -7, Archdruid-6), which can be relevant. More so in my list (Karn, Wildspeaker + Acidic Slime, etc), but that's not to say it wouldn't be relevant in a standard build. And there's also the fact that you have to commit less to the board to see the ramp from treespeaker on turn 3 compared to a turn 1 mana elf, and a turn 2 Archdruid.
Just something to think about.
2 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
4 Llanowar Elf
4 Arbor Elf
4 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Copperhorn Scout
3 Myr Superion
1 Sylvan Ranger
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Acidic Slime
2 Genesis Wave
2 Eldrazi Monument
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Karn Liberated
4 Leyline of Vitality
4 Summoning Trap
4 Dismember
2 Naturalize
1 Acidic Slime
I went with Superion over Joraga Warcaller for a couple reasons, but mainly because the Warcaller just never really felt like it was doing anything for me. It would show up, be a bad Elvish Champion and never really feel like he was making a major contribution to my board presence. Where as Superion was only uncastable very rarely, survives Dismember and Go for the Throat, and can block Sword of Feast and Famine. Plus sometimes you just get to live the dream and cast him on turn 2 at a bewildered opponent.
I've found that despite being unable to have both it and Wildspeaker on the table at the same time Primal Hunter does everything Nissa ever did for me just an awful lot better, and at far smaller cost in cards. Plus he stays alive more easily, and provides some desperately needed CA. Similarily Karn is a breeze to cast and gives the deck a big boost in flexibility at answering threats.
Best part of the day was being on the play against Caw and going:
Turn 1 Treespeaker
Turn 2 Superion
Turn 3 Acidic Slime hitting his second land. Go team.
As (IMO) it would be one of the immediate auto-includes to come to mind when building land denial based control, where's Trinisphere?
I'm not here to tell people what to run, if you want to then go for it. But the goals of the archetype are, as always, to minimize dead draws, and focus on immediacy, effectiveness, and virtual card advantage. And neither Lavamancer nor Figure conform to those ideals.
Read it as this: If the creature can't immediately double as a burn spell when drawn off the top of your library, it's not even worth considering.
Creatures that don't fit the criteria just give the opponent something to do with their otherwise worthless removal, and lessens the deck's virtual card advantage. This is the same reason I didn't immediately include Shrine of Burning Rage, though it's definitely worth testing. Because it gives Zoo (and other decks) something to take away from you, and it doesn't work as a very good draw off the top (it's completely dead).
No?
I can only assume that means TL;DR? Given that it flies in the face of everything I was talking about. Figure might belong in RDW, but this is not RDW, and a mana sink that is an atrocious top deck will never replace the most consistent creature in the deck.
Not sure what phrase you're reading but:
T: Regenerate another target Goblin.
Would signify to me that she can't.
I was going to do a little blurb about Browbeat, because, well, it looks tempting. But as Admiral Ackbar famously said... It's a trap!
Sorry, had to. The thing is Browbeat will never get you the outcome you want/need. It can never be the topdeck that kills someone, and without access to Fireblast there's even less reason to consider it.
Here is a good article going through a long (very long) description of the processes involved in the card, and why it's less than it seems.
OK, but they're not remotely the same decks. While it may be a catchall for now, it's going to be too unreasonable to maintain all the different mono red archetypes under one thread.
Also, I agree on Flames, there should be something else, but it will need to be felt out. However, Shard Volley is a Lightning Bolt. That's more or less where the discussion ends. It's only situational if you have no mountains, or are casting before other lightning bolts, which shouldn't happen.
And Searing Blaze is a sideboard option, sadly, it's hard to pull off properly, but also a terrible if not dead draw against certain decks.