I agree with A lot of this in fact its where some of my thinking has been I in fact cut the backup kill condition all together but I just used it to fix larger problems the deck had mainly the curve being very clunky with too many 4 drops. I tested NO it was not good for this build at all in fact as i made changes adn my creature count dipped below 19 I didn't even like survival . I Already run pod and I am not really a fan of the flicker idea. Bloom tedner has been excellent i wanted mana dorks that can make blue for the most part. Now worldly tutor on the other hand is exactly what I want as it lets me drop muse on time which that really is the strategy I am going for here Land muse dominate all 3 players.
So I have grinded the deck and made quite a few changes From the OP
- Intuition
- Survival of the fittest
- Wasteland
- Leyline of anticipation
- Right of Replication
- Craterhoof Behemoth
- Solemn Simulacrum
all under performing cards with my main lines Intuition was not good here as much as I love the card. Survival was inconsistent with my now lower creature count. I shaved 1 land as I added in some can-trips and a mana rock without crucible of worlds Its not really that important the decks fairly color hungry and the other 4 colorless lands are better. Leyline - as expected its a fun card and excellent in opening hand and garbage drawn at any other time unless its win more. RoR + hoof i used this backup exactly one time so far and I feel confident if I somehow get thge reservoir exiled I can just play the control C Rift swing line in this shell without much issue. Solemn was just underwhelming and the cards I am podding into in this deck are always better between sower clone effect arch mage and oracle im fine with having half an arch-mage over a land and a card when i pod through to muse and not play a subpar card
+ Rhystic study - While the synergy is not here with kydele its not reason not to play it i had a real issue where i needed more cards at 3 or 1 or both on my curve here to get better hands and draws So this is one of the 2 early game development 3 drops I needed playing a 4cc and 2cc commander
+ Coalition Relic - I wanted another 3 drops that developed this one threatens my 6 drops t4 and has excellent synergy with seed-born muse and produces colored mana also leaving open a possible 6 for keydele + 2cc counterspell which is a line i would love to have in many games
+ Wordly Tutor- Finds muse or my combo/ utility cards doesnt require me to have a deck built to use it corecctly to be good is and its 1 drop
+ Ponder - What better way to get the card to play when im trying smooth out my deck when trying to fix clunkyness bonus points for just goign U-C with kydele
+ Preordain - Same as ponder
+ Negate- This deck really wants lots of counterspells it is very much a counter spell stuff deck this one is the best 2cc counter i was not running IMO as it hits spot removal and wrath spells
+ Misdirection - Another free counterspell that defends against spot removal or other counterspells for the one normal window im vulrable when i get a muse tutor early I did consider swan song and pact of negation but i think that exiling a blue in a deck that draws this much and makes a play from the command zone early is alot easier and less risky than the tempo loss on Pact where iF i use it on say STP or counterpsell on my cast Seedborn Muse play i risk losing it on my next upkeep and they have plenty of time to prepare for that window Also once muse is safe I dont mind the hardcast cost
Yea I should probably play wordly tutor. Im not a huge fan of sylvan tutor EE is not that great here but I could run NO which is a lot better. I will test worldly tutor and NO in intuitions slot and see if I like them better Intuition is not particularly good here though I honestly don't need to be trimming 3 drops hmm. I just need to grind this more Leyline is probably the best cut but its just too much fun with what im going for and very good if I get lucky and open hand it. If i decide the tempo loss is to great when I don't open hand it and see it in a few games ill cut that but thanks for suggestion i am in market for 3 drops but I don't think retreat to coralhelm is whta im looking for something that is a good play turn 3 while im developing for if I did not hit 1-2 cc acceleration maybe Dizzy spell might not be horrible .
Yea im aware of all of the combos Im not so sure overloading on them is necessary I did find the thread though and looking at that list I do think should play bloom tender completely forgot about that card. There have been a couple games I wanted Regal force but im not running as many dorks and if i did include that i think i would want to add natural order as well which is a possibility. I just tested a game without cruicble of worlds for bloom tender had fabricate and it was not what i wanted to fetch but i had a stupidly good hand and won turn 4 casting time spiral with an insane board state for t4 bricked on 5 lands but hit memory jar cracked jar hit mom for instant win. Cards im running that i think could be replaced are Solemn which is nice to have on the pod chain but overall underwhelming its nice he is colorless though I still think I want a few ways to filter colorless mana with either candelabra or Frantic search both would love me to replace slots with more support in mana doublers. RoR is fairly unneeded but it did win me a game where I drew it and my foolish opponent thought casting sudden spoiliing on my team when I was kicking on crater hoof would matter but he did not realize how layers or clones function XD. In general I honestly don't feel like i need to jam that many combo pieces into the deck but i do feel like their are some weak slots Ill check out the thread more in depth later Bloom tender is a nice add for now though . I kind of want to see what it is that i really need before trimming the worst cards for new ones im a grinder XD.
Check out the other thread on Thrasios+Kydele. We brewed some consistent UG lists that use mana combos to win with Thrasios. Are you opposed to using combos?
Well so far I have only lost one time in about 10 games but mtgo is not that amazing competition in fact its way better than I intedned it to be, I haven't played this in paper yet. The kill conditions are craterhoof as back up plan and aetherflux reservoir is the main kill condition. In general you tutor muse mainly banking on Thrasios + seedborn muse to take over the game then combo is easy to find just get palinchron + vorinclex or phantasmal image the bounces create all the damage for reservoir and thras can always draw the deck. I have won as early as turn 3 via tooth and nail but the average kill is like turn 6ish it seems which is already faster than I had intended but If seedborn muse doesn't get immediately answered its pretty much been GG and even when it does die its easy to get back. Mind over matter does pretty much the same thing as palinchron combo if you manage to get both commanders out though the all star is honestly Thrasios which has more than exceeded my expectations and is unassuming at least online where Kydele has been awesome when it gets online at cmc 4 their seems to be less good times to deploy her barring hands with like sol ring . So to answer your question I am already using mana combos
Changes from testing today
- Avenger zendikar - literally never cast or wanted to cast this card
+ mystic snake - creature tutorable counter pods out to muse nice to have on chord of calling or survival ups my counter count which is good as drawing forbid seems to end games as a real mvp and once I get going i always want more counters to hold everyone down until I can go off dumping the rest of mana into thrasios so while its a bit over-costed bodies in this deck seem to be well worth the investment. The first game I had it I corded it out and i won that game and it was fairly tight as once I have muse rolling the teaming begins.
+ Leyline of Anticipation
+ Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
+ Survival of The Fittest
First game with Leyline I open handed it and won with tooth and nail on someone else turn when I get a read that the other simic mage who's Seedborn Muse I had copied Doesn't have a counter and win in response to khalia equipping swift-foot boots to avoid whatever he wanted to do.
Sol ring is fine in the RCs vision type game so its fine . I will say it is without a doubt the single most centralizing card in the format and has a huge impact on more games than any other card in the format in my experience playing thousands of different decks and players on mtgo and in paper. The first thing I think every game is I hope no one else has crypt or ring in their opening hand unless im sitting on copy artifact or dack fayden + mox diamond or something of that nature then im probably hoping they do have and its still the first thing im thinking about.
Out of all the new commander I love this pair the most and think they have excellent synergy with each other so I built a combo deck based around the commanders its not overly oppressive but can win pretty fast and its loads of fun suggestions welcome!
Your position that it should be banned because it only combos assumes that combos in general should not be allowed and I disagree with that completely. Power artifact does the same thing and so do many other cards. The vision for this format is not "you can never play combos" if your group does not want infinite loops you can choose not to play them if that's how you like to play but the reasoning that because it's less useful outside of combo makes it to me LESS of a problem than a card like say Kiki-Jiki mirror breaker as you don't acidently play palinchron and go oops I have a mana doubler in this deck guess I win.
So TLDR. I disagree that infinite combos are against the spirit of the format it's a valid archetype and I a disagree a card that having no other uses makes it more of a problem or safer to ban since it's not "taking away" from the format but less of a problem since it's obviously intentional.
It's important to note the exact costs of the cards. For instance a 5 color deck cannot
Hope to support necropotence cryptic command eternal witness grasp of fate and still intended to land it's red splash. So you make concessions and decide you don't need cryptic command or necro or w/e. As with most decks when your drawing your fetchlands your typically fine however running a large number of basics in these decks will give you many combinations of lands that do not allow you to cast your cards on time similar to Running too many colorless utility lands. If you think thier is not a drawback to playing any card you want and not paying attention to the colored costs at all your going to have issues. Even with fetchlands say your deck is skewed to have many blue cards but you draw a green black fetchland with a swamp and a Forest in your hand but you want to use enlighten tutor turn 1 to fetch sol ring. You now hav to choose between possibly top decking blue spells and being unable to cast them and not casting your enlighten tutor. With enough fixing you will often be fine and it very much depends on your splash but you will run into issues trying to support a a massive variation of different colors he deeper you go into each. Now if your 5 color deck has very few multi same colored cards it gets easier. So while some builds can indeed run perfectly fine and the benefits can outweigh the cons this is not always true. That being said I don't think non basic land hate is that much of an issue and in many of my 3 color decks I don't play around it depending on the hand if I have a counterspell up I want usea and watery grave and volc island not island, in fact playing around blood moon seems bad when I just played opened myself to other hate I find scarier like strip mine. I don't think the mana bases are much different than 3 color mana bases in this format all the same lands are the best lands. If your mono color you run cards like back to basics because they are good if they fit your strategy. As with most things in Magic the answer is "it depends" and whether or not you should use a 3 color or 4 color commander from a optimization stand point will vary from deck to deck based on your goal. At he end of the day I don't think you avoid playing extra colors because ruination I think if you avoid them it's because the commander is not as good or the strain on your mana base is not worth what the splash brings to your deck or a combination of both. Either way the same decks should be using blood moon and friends and I don't think blood moon being a thing is the reason you choose not to play a 4/5c deck.
Your Ancient Tomb should have entered tapped from the effect... and if this is happening on mtgo..
Bug report?
poor wording it did Come In tapped I Meant I used the hero and my remaining 2 mana to draw it
Crying In my defense I did not put in mana vault and ran plenty of subpar cards . Perhaps your right I just can't be trusted to Play blue admittidly choosing to add T+N combo was a bad decision in hindsight.
I really feel Thrasios would be better in just a GU deck, that is how I plan to build him, but I will also keep my Tasigur since its the most winning deck I own.
..
I built a more causal deck in sonic with both the partners it's pretty fun but I disagree I think his best deck will have black for the power black cards making infinite mana is not hard and while expensive his ability to draw cards from the command zone on top of that makes him pretty good. In honestly not sure which is better here or for any build that intends to win this way but it's defiantly a cool card. Like Dies has said here and anywhere else is probably not the commander itself but the weighing what the splash gives against what you lose from weakening the mana base.
I will be honest the 20 life change has me interested the format actually looks quite balanced and fun now. It doesn't however have mtgo support if it did i would already be playing it.
So I have grinded the deck and made quite a few changes From the OP
- Intuition
- Survival of the fittest
- Wasteland
- Leyline of anticipation
- Right of Replication
- Craterhoof Behemoth
- Solemn Simulacrum
all under performing cards with my main lines Intuition was not good here as much as I love the card. Survival was inconsistent with my now lower creature count. I shaved 1 land as I added in some can-trips and a mana rock without crucible of worlds Its not really that important the decks fairly color hungry and the other 4 colorless lands are better. Leyline - as expected its a fun card and excellent in opening hand and garbage drawn at any other time unless its win more. RoR + hoof i used this backup exactly one time so far and I feel confident if I somehow get thge reservoir exiled I can just play the control C Rift swing line in this shell without much issue. Solemn was just underwhelming and the cards I am podding into in this deck are always better between sower clone effect arch mage and oracle im fine with having half an arch-mage over a land and a card when i pod through to muse and not play a subpar card
+ Rhystic study - While the synergy is not here with kydele its not reason not to play it i had a real issue where i needed more cards at 3 or 1 or both on my curve here to get better hands and draws So this is one of the 2 early game development 3 drops I needed playing a 4cc and 2cc commander
+ Coalition Relic - I wanted another 3 drops that developed this one threatens my 6 drops t4 and has excellent synergy with seed-born muse and produces colored mana also leaving open a possible 6 for keydele + 2cc counterspell which is a line i would love to have in many games
+ Wordly Tutor- Finds muse or my combo/ utility cards doesnt require me to have a deck built to use it corecctly to be good is and its 1 drop
+ Ponder - What better way to get the card to play when im trying smooth out my deck when trying to fix clunkyness bonus points for just goign U-C with kydele
+ Preordain - Same as ponder
+ Negate- This deck really wants lots of counterspells it is very much a counter spell stuff deck this one is the best 2cc counter i was not running IMO as it hits spot removal and wrath spells
+ Misdirection - Another free counterspell that defends against spot removal or other counterspells for the one normal window im vulrable when i get a muse tutor early I did consider swan song and pact of negation but i think that exiling a blue in a deck that draws this much and makes a play from the command zone early is alot easier and less risky than the tempo loss on Pact where iF i use it on say STP or counterpsell on my cast Seedborn Muse play i risk losing it on my next upkeep and they have plenty of time to prepare for that window Also once muse is safe I dont mind the hardcast cost
Well so far I have only lost one time in about 10 games but mtgo is not that amazing competition in fact its way better than I intedned it to be, I haven't played this in paper yet. The kill conditions are craterhoof as back up plan and aetherflux reservoir is the main kill condition. In general you tutor muse mainly banking on Thrasios + seedborn muse to take over the game then combo is easy to find just get palinchron + vorinclex or phantasmal image the bounces create all the damage for reservoir and thras can always draw the deck. I have won as early as turn 3 via tooth and nail but the average kill is like turn 6ish it seems which is already faster than I had intended but If seedborn muse doesn't get immediately answered its pretty much been GG and even when it does die its easy to get back. Mind over matter does pretty much the same thing as palinchron combo if you manage to get both commanders out though the all star is honestly Thrasios which has more than exceeded my expectations and is unassuming at least online where Kydele has been awesome when it gets online at cmc 4 their seems to be less good times to deploy her barring hands with like sol ring . So to answer your question I am already using mana combos
Changes from testing today
- Avenger zendikar - literally never cast or wanted to cast this card
+ mystic snake - creature tutorable counter pods out to muse nice to have on chord of calling or survival ups my counter count which is good as drawing forbid seems to end games as a real mvp and once I get going i always want more counters to hold everyone down until I can go off dumping the rest of mana into thrasios so while its a bit over-costed bodies in this deck seem to be well worth the investment. The first game I had it I corded it out and i won that game and it was fairly tight as once I have muse rolling the teaming begins.
-Asceticism
-Azusa Lost but seeking
+ Leyline of Anticipation
+ Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
+ Survival of The Fittest
First game with Leyline I open handed it and won with tooth and nail on someone else turn when I get a read that the other simic mage who's Seedborn Muse I had copied Doesn't have a counter and win in response to khalia equipping swift-foot boots to avoid whatever he wanted to do.
1 Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix
1 Thrasios, Triton Hero
Lands 34
1 Alchemist's Refuge
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
1 Command Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Flooded Grove
1 Flooded Strand
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Mana Confluence
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
1 Temple of Mystery
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Yavimaya Coast
8 Island
4 Forest
CMC 0
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
CMC 1
1 Arbor Elf
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Brainstorm
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Expedition Map
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Nature's Claim
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Swan Song
1 Training Grounds
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Arcane Denial
1 Bloom Tender
1 Counterspell
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Delay
1 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Nature's Lore
1 Negate
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Regrowth
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Sylvan Library
1 Three Visits
CMC 3
1 Coalition Relic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fabricate
1 Forbid
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Timetwister
1 Trinket Mage
1 Windfall
CMC 4
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
1 Birthing Pod
1 Cryptic Command
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Mystic Snake
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Rashmi, Eternities Crafter
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Force of Will
1 Future Sight
1 Memory Jar
1 Mystic Confluence
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
CMC 6
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Mind over Matter
1 Recurring Insight
1 Time Spiral
CMC 7
1 Palinchron
1 Tooth and Nail
CMC 8
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
Cost X
1 Chord of Calling
1 Green Sun's Zenith
How to win 101. Cast commanders > tutor seedborn muse > draw cards > cast mind over matter or tooth and nail > reservoir
So TLDR. I disagree that infinite combos are against the spirit of the format it's a valid archetype and I a disagree a card that having no other uses makes it more of a problem or safer to ban since it's not "taking away" from the format but less of a problem since it's obviously intentional.
Hope to support necropotence cryptic command eternal witness grasp of fate and still intended to land it's red splash. So you make concessions and decide you don't need cryptic command or necro or w/e. As with most decks when your drawing your fetchlands your typically fine however running a large number of basics in these decks will give you many combinations of lands that do not allow you to cast your cards on time similar to Running too many colorless utility lands. If you think thier is not a drawback to playing any card you want and not paying attention to the colored costs at all your going to have issues. Even with fetchlands say your deck is skewed to have many blue cards but you draw a green black fetchland with a swamp and a Forest in your hand but you want to use enlighten tutor turn 1 to fetch sol ring. You now hav to choose between possibly top decking blue spells and being unable to cast them and not casting your enlighten tutor. With enough fixing you will often be fine and it very much depends on your splash but you will run into issues trying to support a a massive variation of different colors he deeper you go into each. Now if your 5 color deck has very few multi same colored cards it gets easier. So while some builds can indeed run perfectly fine and the benefits can outweigh the cons this is not always true. That being said I don't think non basic land hate is that much of an issue and in many of my 3 color decks I don't play around it depending on the hand if I have a counterspell up I want usea and watery grave and volc island not island, in fact playing around blood moon seems bad when I just played opened myself to other hate I find scarier like strip mine. I don't think the mana bases are much different than 3 color mana bases in this format all the same lands are the best lands. If your mono color you run cards like back to basics because they are good if they fit your strategy. As with most things in Magic the answer is "it depends" and whether or not you should use a 3 color or 4 color commander from a optimization stand point will vary from deck to deck based on your goal. At he end of the day I don't think you avoid playing extra colors because ruination I think if you avoid them it's because the commander is not as good or the strain on your mana base is not worth what the splash brings to your deck or a combination of both. Either way the same decks should be using blood moon and friends and I don't think blood moon being a thing is the reason you choose not to play a 4/5c deck.
Crying In my defense I did not put in mana vault and ran plenty of subpar cards . Perhaps your right I just can't be trusted to Play blue admittidly choosing to add T+N combo was a bad decision in hindsight.
I built a more causal deck in sonic with both the partners it's pretty fun but I disagree I think his best deck will have black for the power black cards making infinite mana is not hard and while expensive his ability to draw cards from the command zone on top of that makes him pretty good. In honestly not sure which is better here or for any build that intends to win this way but it's defiantly a cool card. Like Dies has said here and anywhere else is probably not the commander itself but the weighing what the splash gives against what you lose from weakening the mana base.
Mana crypt Chrome mox tropical island Forest Three visits Acidic slime cyclonic rift . I Top deck SDT and drop my entire hand save forest and cyclonic rift binning slime and can still cast Thrasios, Triton Hero . t2 I spin top on upkeep and see Training grounds Ancient tomb Tooth and nail and think to myself if a land under those im killing this table with clex chron t3, so I play the Training grounds then plop Ancient tomb into play with Thrasios, Triton Hero then use it to draw the Tooth and Nail. t3 I draw a forest off the top and proceeded to kill them all . My friend over skype says "Yo Mox you really suck at casual just so you know"
Commander format.