MTG Salvation

A search for "colorless mana" brings back results, one of which is what you probably want.

Ritual of Subdual

Quote from Pentallion

This isn't rocket science, it's actually quite easy to solve. As for RDW, it only needs three lands, yes. So? How is guaranteeing that a mono deck will get its third land borking the game? It's not.

Because if RDW only needs 3 mountains (RDW uses almost all mountains), then using your proposal, that player's strategy is 99% ready to go on turn 1. At least if the mountains were random, that player couldn't guarantee that his strategy would come to fruition.

Mono-color decks would probably thrive under this proposal. If RDW went against Bant (which is 3 colors), the RDW player would have 3 mountains. Suppose the Bant player drew Plains, Plains, and Forest. Now, the Bant player is in trouble.

Also, the Goblin Belcher deck from the old Extended format, doesn't even use 20 lands, so your proposal would destroy that deck's viability with that 20-land minimum requirement.


The mana consistency is a real problem, but most of these solutions ruin a part of the game rules fundamentally.

Quote from ktkenshinx

Yikes. Another person who suggest that Wizards would replace Legacy with a new format. That would be so incredibly stupid that not even the most ardent hater of Wizards' policy would think that this company could do it, at least if they consider Wizards as a fairly rational agent. While Legacy provides Wizards with less money than Standard, it gives them a huge and loyal base of players who aren't going anywhere. They are not going to alienate these people just to experiment with a new format.

Everything I've read about Wizards' game design of late (creation of mythic rarity, preference of creature combat, more balanced cards, slowing the game down, less non-creature combo, more interactive games) seems to indicate a push to make the game accessible to the majority, which are more casual players. I still believe those casual players bring in the most income for Wizards, not the dedicated players.

Based on these actions, I would not be surprised if Wizards replaced Legacy with a new Eternal Format. The new Eternal Format (Mercadian Masques or Invasion block to present) is not subject to the now-ironclad Reserved List policy, so Wizards can print more cards to sell. If they can print more cards to sell, they can reasonably sustain the format, which means they can run sanctioned tournaments for it. If they can run sanctioned tournaments for the format, I think they are hypothesizing increased card sales and player turnout.

I think Legacy got a huge boost in popularity, only because Star City Games is running a tournament series. This series, however, is not sanctioned by Wizards to my knowledge (i.e. your wins/losses don't got towards your DCI ratings). Again, the Reserved List makes it impossible now to reprint any Legacy staples, so the format cannot grow. With each new expansion, only a few cards are good enough to make it into Legacy format, so that will not sell many cards for Wizards.

I really think the dedicated player population is not as large or influential as we like it to be. Even with the new Eternal format, Legacy can still be played. Like you said, TOs can still run unsanctioned events for Vintage and Legacy. Collectors get to keep their out of print Legacy cards. which still retain value.

I just think Wizards would stand to do well with a new Eternal format.
-The format would be without many of the broken cards.
-It would have most of the modern card design philosophies
-It would be more likely creature-oriented since the strong spells of old do not exist in this format.
-It would slow the game down. Chances of a win in 2 turns or less happen less frequently. Other "fast" decks get slowed down a little.
-Mana screw is less harmful, since you have a few more turns to get the deck going.
-Games could get to turn 6+. In Legacy, most decks seem designed to win in less than 6 turns.

If I look at those factors, the game is "fun" (at least the way I think Wizards is attempting). Yet within this "fun" there is still room for competition and innovative decks.

Wizards have done supposedly "stupid" things before (creation of mythic rarity, announcing changes last-minute, etc.), so why not again?

Quote from Monopoman

Trying to replace Legacy would be a huge blow against their older fans a lot of which still buy product and support the game.

It's been mentioned before that Wizards probably thinks the older fans do not buy as much product as new and casual players. I can see why WotC official support has been on Standard and Extended, since those formats still sell booster packs (whether bought by players or by vendors who open them to sell singles)

If WotC replaces Legacy/Vintage with "Overextended," they will have a format where they can reprint cards when they want to, which would likely increase sales.

Quote from the_fish

Finally, how about permanent Abundance? (as a rule) (EDIT: note that it is optional, so you can still draw a hidden card if you want to)

I like this as a potential house rule. I wonder if Abundance was created as a way to deal with this problem originally.

Quote from tamaguna

This sir, is crap. I am in the process of building a Legacy deck that is costing me a pretty penny, if this happens, I just might have to quite Magic for the second time.:o

Legacy as a DCI rules format will likely stay. However, WotC rarely supported Legacy officially in their Pro Tour tournament circuit and never officially supported it in Friday Night Magic. This does not prevent other tournament organizers from running their own organized events, such as the Star City Games Open Series. From what I can tell, however, these events are non-sanctioned, so your wins and losses are not part of your DCI rating.

What people are speculating is that Overextended would become an eternal format that WotC could officially sanction and support, since the cards in this format are not on the Reserved List and can be reprinted at any time. If that happens, some people may abandon their cards used in Vintage and Legacy to play in the new format (i.e. if WotC supports it officially and runs lots of sanctioned tournaments, people will be more likely to play).

Of course, this is all speculation right now, since WotC has not made any official comment about this format. They have only announced changes to the Extended format.

Quote from jokulmorder

WotC would care about this overextended about as much as legacy

You are probably right, but WotC might change their mind about this format. WotC probably couldn't support Legacy very well because of the Reserved List (they had to use foils). Now that the policy is ironclad, they definitely can't support it, because they can't reprint any of the cards in any form.

With an Overextended format, they can support the format with reprints, since none of the cards in this rumored format are on the reserved list. Thus, they might care this time around.

Quote from tamaguna

Let me get this straight. Is everyone here suggesting that this new format, super-extended will be taking the place of Legacy? If it is that is just gonna blow, hard! Please someone, give me some feedback on this.

The majority believe OverExtended format, if it comes to fruition, will replace Legacy or Vintage as a WotC-sanctioned, WotC-supported eternal format.

Legacy and Vintage may be legal DCI tournament formats, but WotC themselves have had few sanctioned tournaments of either.

Quote from jokulmorder

If SDT were banned solely due to time restrictions then it would be banned in legacy as well. the problem was that it was both centralizing (tons of decks ran it) and it took a long time. when the majority of viable decks in a format are running a card that can take a while to use, there's not much questioning its banning.

Legacy isn't widely supported by WotC. They ran one sanctioned Legacy event at GP Madrid, but they haven't run many overall. I think DCI let that slide, because there aren't that many WotC-sanctioned events. The Star City Games Open tournament is not WotC-sanctioned, if I recall correctly. If WotC runs sanctioned events based on the Overextended format, there is a much higher chance of SDT being banned.

Quote from the_cardfather

The only way this new extended is going to succede is if it starts getting FNM play.

This is key. A new Overextended needs Wizards support. They cannot create the format and not have FNM prize support. As it stands, FNM in my area is Standard, which I don't play.

Quote from the_cardfather

If they start this at IPA rather than Masques I'll be all over it. I'm not as excited about a format with Masques in it.

You're not the only one that has mentioned preferring to start the format at Invasion. What is wrong with the set that could not be banned away by the DCI?

Although I have some Legacy staples cards, I would support this format and likely abandon Legacy. I think WotC wants an eternal format with modern card design, decent game pacing (i.e. reduced chances for a win in 2 turns or less), and more creature combat. Legacy still contains cards too efficient for WotC's comfort for the game as a whole, even if most Legacy cards are not broken.

I think Wizards will probably employ 1 or 2 CMC landcycling as a way for the player to fix the manabase. There might be cards with alternative casting costs or play conditions.

Because lands were part of the library in the original game design, the game design would have to be ripped apart to support a true separation of resources and spells. None of the past cards are designed like World of Warcraft where any card is a resource, so if WotC started to design such cards in a future set, they will make past cards look bad. It would also have to be an evergreen mechanic, so that every set would have a few of these, so I think this solution is unlikely.

Planeswalkers are not creature cards at all, regardless of game zone. They are specifically Planeswalker card types. Duress will allow you to choose Planeswalker cards for discard.

Quote from physcosickmondo

But having the dealer tables and running Legacy events means you're not going to dry up any time soon. They will not make more money by selling these cards.

Having a dealer table does not mean the dealer has enough inventory. When someone buys a card for an eternal format, I think they are going to hold on to the card for a while. That will take the card out of circulation, so vendors like Star City Games (SGC) won't have access to them. SGC could increase their buy prices to incentivize people to sell to them, but SGC can't let the spread between their buy and sell prices get too close, or they won't have make profit.

SGC sponsors these SGC events, so they have to show up with a table. But, I can totally imagine at some point that SGC won't have certain cards to sell at the table.

Quote from physcosickmondo

When they get reprinted, their price will drop significantly. In some case, drop as much to or maybe even less than what they buy them for on a regular basis. Meaning they lose a lot of money because they bought cards for more than they're worth now, plus all of the overhead. It would have been a horrible business move for them. Comparatively, it would have been great for other places like coolstuffinc who really have barely any vintage/legacy staples.

I do not think you are thinking this the right way. SGC will take an initial loss but they will make up for it in volume sales in the longer term. With reprints, SGC gets more inventory of cards. SGC is probably calculating demand will also increase if there were reprints, so if SGC secures a large amount of those reprinted cards, they can set the prices and profit again.

The cards are like stock certificates, and I think SGC is pricing their cards in a stock market fashion. They may be able to stomach a short-term price drop to reap long-term profits.

Quote from akazukin chacha

I take is 'singletons' means cards that you only have one of?

Yes, singleton means you only have one of that card.