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Life's Legacy: Delving into Delver
 
All Sets Are Good: Prophecy
 
The Magic Market Index for Feb 9, 2018
  • posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    Honestly, Ive never liked railer, but bbelf does make it more appealing to me. Ive used seals with bbelf before, its a nice thought worth testing. Might be solid enough tech to seperate it from the pack...

    Though if I was running a full burn suite i still wouldnt run thalia
    Thalia is solid in zoo, but she really was great in small zoo, less good in more bigger.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    Quote from Brulander »
    Quote from Lantern »
    Quote from Brulander »
    I've been waiting to play a classic zoo list competitively forever now... With the elf on our side what are looking like it chances of reliving subs of the old girl days? How would you guys consider our matchups in the proposed shell in a local meta such as Tron, jund, Jace, affinity, elves, fish, storm?


    What do you mean by classic? Like kird apes and loam lions?


    Like just Naya good stuff.


    Yeah, it doesnt fix our losing the fast game to a bunch of other decks issue, but it forsure helps our ending aggro midgame problem

    Tron- Probably good, but eldrazi tron is probably an issue. I havent played much naya against them when the archtype was starting to be formed.

    jund- Probably not good. weve always been soft to them

    Jace- Probably good, just dont over extend into wipes. You always need to play control matchups with reserve gas.

    affinity- pre board probably bad. Post board really good if you have grudge along with burn.

    elves- probably bad, they combo fast.
    fish- depends on the amount of burn. But Ive always found it slightly in our favor.

    storm- Aweful. Need to hit the silver bullet in the side to have a shot.

    Overall, Zoo is king in a tempo and control meta. We havent had one of those since Delver tresure cruise days. Historically its terrible in combo midrange meta, but historically, modern gravitates to that. With jace existing? Up in the air. If its a force, we have a diffiniate role to play in the meta.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    Quote from Brulander »
    I've been waiting to play a classic zoo list competitively forever now... With the elf on our side what are looking like it chances of reliving subs of the old girl days? How would you guys consider our matchups in the proposed shell in a local meta such as Tron, jund, Jace, affinity, elves, fish, storm?


    What do you mean by classic? Like kird apes and loam lions?
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    So I've got past experiences with domri vs jace in legacy, and BBelfing into domri.

    If you can resolve a domri vs any form of control deck you win. Period. He is basically a ticking time bomb. I wouldnt dip below 28 creatures for him ever, agreed. But even missing with him and ulting him is enough to beat control. Hell, them scrambling to find some way to off him usually is enough of a window to win.

    If jace control becomes a main stay force, he is probably a 2 of in the deck. As far as burn suite, I used to run 4 bolt, 3 helix, 2 path in my decks and that worked out just fine. The 2,2, 1 split on hate bears is my go to number as well. If I was to tweak the list it would be going up a domri, down a helix. I think 21 lands is correct. I always played it close with 20 lands, but I usually risk it for the biscuit, so I'm not suggesting it.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on Dredge
    I meannnnn ill take any dredge info ever. But focus on day 2 first! Good luck!
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on Dredge
    It shouldnt... i suppose it could. The legacy version still exists without top but runs 11 of the GOOD cantrips in order to exist.

    Even if it does, We just play around it like anger. Its going to be hard for them to instant speed terminus us like in legacy.

    But yes. Terminus and miracles is the literal reason I quit legacy. Control should lose to aggro, and that card breaks that.
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 10/02/18)
    Quote from ktkenshinx »
    Quote from cfusionpm »
    Home from work and re-reading the ban announcement in detail, this line caught me by surprise:

    "In watching the format evolve, we've observed that decks seeking to control the game have struggled against the speed and variety of threats present in the format. Often these decks have been forced to adopt an explosive win condition of their own. Our hope is that Jace, the Mind Sculptor will provide yet another option in an already diverse format, giving controlling decks an alternative way to close out prolonged games."

    I'm not sure how I feel about this statement. It seems they are saying that blue-based control decks have slow or unreliable win conditions (which I agree with) and that somehow Jace fixes that?? They also imply that previous decks (like Twin) or current decks (like Breach/Emrakul) are clearly NOT what they want in terms of reactive decks. I'm curious to see how things pan out. Maybe Jace will be the savior of blue reactive decks, or maybe it will be just another option of mediocrity, and they use the same justification here to release SFM or Twin in another 6mo-1yr (giving control decks another option to close out games). Who knows. Either way, I will definitely be brewing with my foils.

    I read it differently. I think Wizards is hoping JTMS gives slower decks the OPTION of a viable, slower win con. Currently, those decks basically NEED to resort to faster ones, which isn't as diversified as it could be if slower options were better. They aren't saying explosive win cons are bad. They just want slow decks to have a slow option if they want to run one.


    How I took it as well. Honestly not bothered by these unbans in the slightest. I think the legendary status is a tinted lens people are viewing through.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Dredge
    From what I remember (its been a while since Ive been up to date) Ghost Quarter plus loam really is the only hate we have access to.
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 10/02/18)
    Quote from LEH »
    Quote from Lantern »
    People are over evaluating the legendary jace. This is an aggressive creature format. Jace is horrible in that.

    Bbelf is good, but shouldnt have been banned. It was deathrite that carried legendary jund days of yore.

    Both cards will find homes and do their jobs. The meta will still be healthy and settle long term. The sky didnt fall.


    Will you be picking up your Zoo Keeper hat once again, my friend?
    probably not. Ill take it up again when I get a new 1 mana 3/3 aka zoos real problem, lack of 1 dropz.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 10/02/18)
    People are over evaluating the legendary jace. This is an aggressive creature format. Jace is horrible in that.

    Bbelf is good, but shouldnt have been banned. It was deathrite that carried legendary jund days of yore.

    Both cards will find homes and do their jobs. The meta will still be healthy and settle long term. The sky didnt fall.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 10/02/18)
    Quote from mapccu »
    [quote from="mapcc
    5. Decks like zoo, elves, and midrange (abzan, death's shadow, etc.) kind of suffer from Jace being around.


    Zoo has been a jace killer since jace existed. Its sided out vs zoo. Zoo has a absurd win rate vs control.

    It lost to miracles because of terminus.

    Everyone on the zoo thread is happy about his unban.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Dredge
    Na, Jund can really check them hard, and tron still exists. If control dominates there is plunty of decks to notch it down. Hopefully this is the start of real balance and meta shifts based on rock paper scissors in modern.
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    Ok, so I switched over to my computer so I can type up a long response. I know Ive been pretty dormant but I've played extesively with Bloodbraid elf and Jace back in the day, so I can save you guys some leg work in this.



    This unban is ultimately good for us. Zoo has always preyed on control and tempo decks... Tempo has popped up and disappeared in modern often but control has never really been good. This will solve alot of their problems, so ironically, alot of ours. Ive been saying for years that Zoo's biggest weakness is control sucks.

    All of our cards are all good vs Jace. Literally all of them.



    The meat of it. Bloodbraid is good. Very good. But don't be fooled, she isn't absolutely disgusting in our deck. When she is hitting 3-2 drops and absurd swingy spells she is... which means shes better in jund. BB into bolt is aggressive for us, but BB into lillina is #broke. BBE is an aggressive card, who is best played late game when both players have run low on resources. Often we run low, play her and the Opponent can still 2 for 1 us fine because they haven't and she didnt do much at all. But she does help make closing out the game better for us.

    My main point is... dont overestimate Bloodbraid Elf. Its a very good card, but isn't absolutely broken for us. Her role should (and always should be) to close the game. Those times she recovers our board after a wipe, or is the perfect blocker nabs us a perfect combo piece, are few and far between. But she does do that one job, closing the game, better than any card aside from maybe elspeth and siege rhino.

    Now lets get to the good stuff about her since we can be a little realistic now we know her limitations. As Ive said, she closes the game on turn 4 and is broken on turn 3. You should be playing her in all versions of zoo now as a top ender... but not always a 4 of. In some of the lower curved lists that number should be 2. In some of the zoo lists that have only around 4-5 3 drops, she should be a 3 of. In any list running 4 Noble Hierarchs, she should be a 4 of, as turn 3ing her is absurd.

    Zoo also can go back to some value creatures unless you are balls to the walls blitz. Pridemage, Thalia, voice, ooze all get better because of her. As do all sideboard cards. She increases the chance you will hit them. So Id change our sides to be more narrow but powerful answers. Run stuff like blood moon over edge or ghost quarter. You have more "draw power" and more pressure now, you just need to patch bad match ups, not prep for overall weakness now that just attacking can win you the game.

    Id also tend to add more burn when I have elf. Helix for example is great. Bloodbraid really removes the reactiveness zoo can sometimes pack. You arent going to be casting stuff that wont have a target. Which is why burn is preferred over path. You wont be running counter spells either if you were doing that, or even stuff like Boros charm. I have my doubts about renegade rallier as well. Main decks cards should have cards that are "always on" because thats the only way to really turn blood braid to max.


    This card should be absolutely gone from our lists. At best, this card is worth 6 mana (2 3dudes) and at worst gives you 0 if you flop. Bloodbraid will always give you 4 worth of value (3/2 haste is worth 3 and cascade will always hit at least 1 mana) which is 4 more mana than company's worst case. Its best case is 6 (3 mana dude plus bloodbraid) so its the same.

    The only place company is better is being better vs control (meh, were fine vs that, plus agrueable since bbe is 2 spells) board wipes/ removal, and finding silver bullets. But we arent a silver bullet deck. Sometimes we pack em, but we pack em fairly. So Company was always worse in our deck. BBE is better.


    I'm not sure BBE replaces this in domain. Both cards do the same thing, and might be around the same level in power. BBelf might be slightly higher since it can hit flames. In domain sometimes you play discard and counters though, in which case Id play rhino over it. This is the only spot I cant for sure say Elf is better. I dunno. Up to the hive mind. My suggestion is to swap it and really be critical about its abilities.


    Jund is going to be better now, so its useage and power level just went up, which is bad for us. Keep that in mind.




    So blitz zoo, bigger zoo, 4-5 color zoo or small zoo? My bet is on bigger zoo. Blitz likes the speed, but 4 mana is a tall ask. I'm sure they adopt the card as a 2 of for games that go longer, but I wouldnt call that a huge upgrade. 4-5 color zoo, the issue has been mana as always. Its painful. this makes it better, forsure, but its not like deathrite shaman got unbanned, the card that WOULD fix their problems. As Ive said, rhino is comparable... so I think the deck has more options and power now, but not fixing the main issue.

    Small zoo sucks. Its uninteractive, 2/3s for 1 mana are terrible since gurmag angler. Bbelfing into a kird ape feels bad. No.

    Bigger zoo checks all the ways to make an aggressive bbelf at peak opimization. Mana dorks to turn 3 it, more 3 and 2 drops to make better value out of it, reliably hit it turn 4. I actually would cut 5 drops out of the deck for better 3 drops now because bbelf into a 3 drop (or burn) is much stronger and faster and impact the game.

    heres a short list of cards that all got better with BBElf

    • All normal beat down dudes like nacatl
    • All forms of burn (makes path and discard worse)
    • goblin guide
    • vexing devil
    • grim lavamancer
    • Noble Heirch
    • Thalia
    • Ooze
    • Voice
    • Pridemage
    • Knight of the reliquary
    • Kitchen Finks
    • Atarkas command
    • Seal of fire
    • Seal of pandamonium
    • Domri Rade
    • Gideon of the trials
    • Sideboard cards that are enchantments, artifacts, or bodies.


    Doesnt work anymore. Sorry you guys can't live the dream like the old days.


    So I'm not sure if this makes zoo better than humans. I've been out of the loop for a while but came back on pro tour to watch it... And humans kinda acts like a tribal version small zoo. Its a weird blend of hatebears and small zoo. Basically everything in the deck interacts with the opponent, or beats down, and it does that job really well. Honestly... if they wanted too they could run elf. It worries me a bit, because if humans does what zoo does but better, you get into an out classed situation, which isnt good.

    Overall... Look, BBELF helps zoo compete. We can actually abuse it. We dont use it like jund does, we use it much more aggressively. But I'm not sure this is the card to save the zoo decks. I'm still full on about how zoo needs another 1 3/3. Right now, you can go faster and lose the long game, or go slower and lose the early game. A 3/3 at 1 lets us win the short game and still compete into the long game. BBElf in my opinion certainly raises the power level of zoo, but doesn't fix the core issue as to why we arent top tier.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Zoo [Video Primer]
    Quote from lugger »


    She's back, boys and girls.

    What do we do?


    Realistically... jam her in every zoo list that existed prior.


    I wouldnt go crazy yet yall. Bbelf also means jund got better, and we suck against that.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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