If I ever built a cube deck which could not beat a first turn LoA, I'd heavily consider taking up another hobby. Are your cubes 359 Chimney Imps and 1 LoA? This conversation is completely ridiculous.
FWIW in my cube Corpse Dance always tabled and usually just sat in the SB(it has since been cut), but Karakas almost never makes it around twice and is rarely left in the SB.
It might be worthwhile to have posters say what the size of their cube is and perhaps some general thoughts on the colors/decks the card is good in before they post their recommendations. It'd be much easier to cut Dance from a cube of say, 360 cards VS one that's 600-1000 cards etc.
As long as the LoA's ability isn't disrupted, you should win. If you don't, it's because the deck it's in is garbage... it has nothing to do with the quality of your opponent's deck.
With all due respect, this make me think you've either been drafting with terrible cubes or your drafters aren't taking it seriously enough. I'm not even going to touch the statement that the cards I listed aren't as good as or better than LoA.
I'm not even really sure what the point of this argument is anymore, so I'll just end my participation in this discussion before I give myself an ulcer.
This. Library of Alexandria is the only card in the cube where if you play it T1, you don't lose.
This is simply not true. I've lost plenty of games playing with and against turn one LoA. Yeah, it's really good, but it's not unbeatable; that's just silly.
To me most of the cards I listed earlier are far more frightening. Again, different cubes, different strategies, different play groups, different levels of brokenness. LoA ain't broken enough to be even remotely considered for the axe, and I play with a very vocal play group.
Aside from power and cards like Sol Ring, Fastbond, Mind Twist, etc. which were never actually included, I have not been asked to cut any card other than Gifts Given. If anything is on the chopping block, GG definitely would be.
Well, if they have the choice of killing it or losing to it, it's awesome. You don't suffer card disadvantage most of the time when they destroy it, it starts netting cards from the first turn of the game, costs nothing, cannot be countered, it even produces mana. You can keep on the draw a hand with seven lands and still win. What can be possibly better in your cube?
I have and would potentially pick any of the above cards over LoA P1P1. It gets even more easy to make the pick if I'm already dedicated to playing aggro. If I'm W/x or R/x in P2P1 and I see Eight-and-a-Half-Tails or Cursed Scroll, there is really no decision to be made. You win games in my cube by building the best deck, not by playing with broken cards. That's a function of the players piloting the decks, and the cube construction itself (rewards aggro strategies).
Metamind's right about one thing for sure... Sol Ring is probably the best card in the cube. I'd take it over any piece of power, or pretty much anything else for that matter. If the cube doesn't run power, cards like Sol Ring and Library of Alexandria should be cast aside as well (being that they're more powerful than the power cards).
I run an unpowered cube and Library of Alexandria is far from being broken enough to cut from the cube. Hell, just last week I had LoA and it was Strip Mine d, Magus of the Moon'ed and there were a half dozen times I drew it with the awkward 3-5 cards in hand. I find cards like Survival of the Fittest and Armageddon are much more broken seeing as their brokenness does not have a prequisite (well almost no prereq).
I remember years ago when 'bury' was used to kill creatures without hope of regeneration. Like "All creatures in play are buried" on Wrath. Later wizards pull the term because they did want players to consult rule books to explain what certain words meant. Now, this was before reminder text but isn't that what they are doing now? Things like 'exile target creature' has the same feel as 'bury' which they didn't want to use. If you have to remove something from the 'battlefield' how do new players know what a battlefield is or where it is at in relation to your library and graveyard.
Just my 2 cents
This is exactly how I feel about renaming old mechanics. Adding the word battlefield is a huge mistake.
These probably aren't new to most people, but if you're anything like me, you might be teetering between whether or not to include them. I wholeheartedly endorse the following cards:
Molder Slug - This is exactly the sort of card that keeps me drafting the G/x midrange decks. Eats Signets and Jittes for lunch, is a respectable 4/6 for 5 mana, and has a relevent creature type, so you can sac him to your Baloth in a pinch.
Grizzly Fate - I've noticed almost no one runs this little gem in their cubes. This card is downright scary alongside Mirari's Wake, Garruk Wildspeaker and other overrun effects. The flashback is great for post-wrath shenanigans as well.
Shining Shoal - To me this one should be an auto-include for anyone running a WW strategy in their cube. Insane against Pyroclasm and Firespout, helps you win the combat game, and gives white the burn it needs to push through the final few points of damage.
You don't include "powerful un-fun cards", but you specifically tried to make Tinkerbetter? Hmmm......
It's all about making the cube Balanced. You can include cards like LoA and Bazaar, but your LD needs to be easily splashed into every deck. You can play cards like Skullclamp, Jitte, etc., but your Wrath effects need to be good and plentiful. You can encourage an artifact archetype, but you have to offset it with really good WW and R/x or G/B/x midrange decks.
Quote from Wermine »
Tinker is very bad card if not supported. If you make a 60 card constructed deck with Tinker, it's insane. If you draft it with two artifacts, it's underwhelming. Rest of the cube's cards determine how good Tinker is and you can freely adjust it's power level that way. I find it fun card because it needs some setting and creates those "oooh" moments.
Mind Twist or Mox Pearl are good no matter what. So tinker needs help, Mind Twist does not (altough you can make it even better with acceleration).
That is exactly how I feel about power cards. Thank you for putting it so eloquently
Even though Tinker needs support cards, it doesn't mean that it not one of the most degenerative and powerful cards in the cube.
Depends how big your cube is, how early on in the draft you see it, if someone is dedicated to playing a ton of signets, etc. or if they got the Sundering Titan / Slaver. I mean, we've had plenty of drafts where tinker just sits in the SB because all the good artifacts were left in the unused portion of the cube (I run 540). The borderline broken cards like Recurring Nightmare and Umezawa's Jitte don't really have prerequisites other than running...creatures.
Obviously Kiri-Onna is not good, but I don't believe Sun is inferior to Riftwing Cloudskate and Man-'o-War in every way.
A cube is 300-1,000 cards mashed together to play out Magic in what the cube creator(s) thinks will be the most interesting, broken, or fun way possible. I personally don't play cards like Moat, Ensaring Bridge, Ankh of Mishra, Mind Twist, Power, etc. because they make for unfun games. That doesn't make them bad or good, it just means they don't belong in my cube. I made a concious effort of making Tinker and Tezzeret the Seeker really good in my cube, but I'll bet you there are many cubes which wouldn't include either one of them, or rather shouldn't.
Perhaps Sun Ce is more powerful in my cube than your cube. Maybe I haven't gathered enough data on either one of them to determine which of them are correct. Maybe all three merit inclusion. I posted in this thread what my experience has been, and that is that MoW and Cloudskate have not been as good as Sun.
I'll post my cube in the next couple weeks and perhaps you can help me find room for the 2-power beaters again, but I'm telling you; the on deck list is ginormous for blue.
These guys that are bouncing creates back to your opponents hand need to come down ASAP. If you're waiting until turn 5 to cast one of these guys (Sun Ce, Kiri-Onna), you're probably dead. The reason the Man-o-War is so good is because he only costs three mana and helps you stabilize while you're getting your beaten down in the early game. Also, the horsemanship ability is not that useful when you're so far behind on your backfoot because you have still not stablized.
I agree with bondafong that Man-o-war is the best card here, and I completely disagree with Spliff's choices to cut Man-o-war and Cloudskate.
In my cube most U/x control decks run between 6-9 kill cards on average and Man-'o-War and Cloudskate are outclassed by Sun every time. None of the people in my play group have expressed their lament for me cutting either of those cards, but are certainly quick to point out how insane Sun has been for them.
How good each of these cards really depends on what your goal is for your colors, archtypes, and power level. Like I said, I'd like to find room to fit him back in as I think he's great in general, but I'm in the process of experimenting with less traditional cards and so far cutting him has been the right choice IMHO.
Man-o-War is better than all the other cards mentioned here.
Sun Ce is about the same in powerlevel.
Since most people typically run less blue creatures than blue spells in their cubes, the power-level of said creatures really needs to hit heavy. In my cube I personally promote aggro decks above all else, so while Man-'o-War might be better than the other cards in a vacuum, I believe he does not do the job better than Pestermite or Sun Ce, Young Conqurer to help this strategy. I also think many people are trying to streamline their cubes and promote specific archtypes (W/x Aggro, R/x Burn, Reanimator, 5-Color, etc.) and I don't believe Man-'o-War feels at home in these sorts of decks like the other two do.
I will concede that I've been trying to find room to bring the little Jellyfish back in, but there are just so many better cards waiting to get their time to shine.
I run Pestermite in my cube and he's a powerhouse; I wouldn't ever dream of cutting him.
I recently cut Riftwing Cloudskate (was Man-'o-War before that) in favor of Sun Ce, Young Conquerer, and holy smokes is this guy good. I was also going to try out Kiri-Onna, but I'm pretty sure Sun isn't leaving any time soon.
4. Kilo and I have had a bit of discussion about replacing the tri-colored Dragons with something else. I made a list of tri-colored cards that might be more beneficial, but the list is VERY small - seriously, do a search for tri-colored cards. I proxied up the entire cube, and thus far, I've seen one of two things happen:
I think it really depends on what direction you're taking your cube. I have played some cubes which are much less focused on aggro and promote the control, 5c, and midrange strategies. These cubes run more counterspells, wraths, 3-color dragons (all invasion and PC dragons) and ~15% land. Powered cubes also make casting the dragons easier.
I run a 540 card cube and only have 8-10 tri-color cards at any given time (excluding cards like EE, or Etched Oracle). It's very tempting to want to add dragons, charms, split cards, etc., but like you said, I think it's important not to force your players into specific colors or sticking them with 15th pick Treva. I think it's equally important not to make your players too anxious to draft the non-basic lands early. That's not to say that I don't promote 5c decks; in fact, it's quite the contrary. I just don't think there's much to gain by running a card like Bant Charm over Pyroclasm or Esper Charm over Compulsive Research. If there are mono-colored cards which do the same job, you have one or more effects which are competing for the spot, or the card has an awkward casting cost, I usually don't consider it.
Broodmate Dragon, on the other hand...that guy is just plain unreal. BD and Rith, the Awakener are the only 3-color dragons which have made the cut in my cube.
On the B-Ring subject: I run Barbarian Ring, and Keldon Necropolis. When my cube was 360 cards, I only ran Barbarian Ring. I think it's just plain better than Megaliths or Necropolis. For the record I think Megaliths is terrible.
It might be worthwhile to have posters say what the size of their cube is and perhaps some general thoughts on the colors/decks the card is good in before they post their recommendations. It'd be much easier to cut Dance from a cube of say, 360 cards VS one that's 600-1000 cards etc.
With all due respect, this make me think you've either been drafting with terrible cubes or your drafters aren't taking it seriously enough. I'm not even going to touch the statement that the cards I listed aren't as good as or better than LoA.
I'm not even really sure what the point of this argument is anymore, so I'll just end my participation in this discussion before I give myself an ulcer.
This is simply not true. I've lost plenty of games playing with and against turn one LoA. Yeah, it's really good, but it's not unbeatable; that's just silly.
To me most of the cards I listed earlier are far more frightening. Again, different cubes, different strategies, different play groups, different levels of brokenness. LoA ain't broken enough to be even remotely considered for the axe, and I play with a very vocal play group.
Aside from power and cards like Sol Ring, Fastbond, Mind Twist, etc. which were never actually included, I have not been asked to cut any card other than Gifts Given. If anything is on the chopping block, GG definitely would be.
I have and would potentially pick any of the above cards over LoA P1P1. It gets even more easy to make the pick if I'm already dedicated to playing aggro. If I'm W/x or R/x in P2P1 and I see Eight-and-a-Half-Tails or Cursed Scroll, there is really no decision to be made. You win games in my cube by building the best deck, not by playing with broken cards. That's a function of the players piloting the decks, and the cube construction itself (rewards aggro strategies).
I run an unpowered cube and Library of Alexandria is far from being broken enough to cut from the cube. Hell, just last week I had LoA and it was Strip Mine d, Magus of the Moon'ed and there were a half dozen times I drew it with the awkward 3-5 cards in hand. I find cards like Survival of the Fittest and Armageddon are much more broken seeing as their brokenness does not have a prequisite (well almost no prereq).
I run the following Unhinged cards:
and the following P3K cards:
I'm considering running Imperial Seal, but not unless the size of my cube increases significantly as I'm already running Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor.
This is exactly how I feel about renaming old mechanics. Adding the word battlefield is a huge mistake.
Molder Slug - This is exactly the sort of card that keeps me drafting the G/x midrange decks. Eats Signets and Jittes for lunch, is a respectable 4/6 for 5 mana, and has a relevent creature type, so you can sac him to your Baloth in a pinch.
Grizzly Fate - I've noticed almost no one runs this little gem in their cubes. This card is downright scary alongside Mirari's Wake, Garruk Wildspeaker and other overrun effects. The flashback is great for post-wrath shenanigans as well.
Shining Shoal - To me this one should be an auto-include for anyone running a WW strategy in their cube. Insane against Pyroclasm and Firespout, helps you win the combat game, and gives white the burn it needs to push through the final few points of damage.
It's all about making the cube Balanced. You can include cards like LoA and Bazaar, but your LD needs to be easily splashed into every deck. You can play cards like Skullclamp, Jitte, etc., but your Wrath effects need to be good and plentiful. You can encourage an artifact archetype, but you have to offset it with really good WW and R/x or G/B/x midrange decks.
That is exactly how I feel about power cards. Thank you for putting it so eloquently
Depends how big your cube is, how early on in the draft you see it, if someone is dedicated to playing a ton of signets, etc. or if they got the Sundering Titan / Slaver. I mean, we've had plenty of drafts where tinker just sits in the SB because all the good artifacts were left in the unused portion of the cube (I run 540). The borderline broken cards like Recurring Nightmare and Umezawa's Jitte don't really have prerequisites other than running...creatures.
Obviously Kiri-Onna is not good, but I don't believe Sun is inferior to Riftwing Cloudskate and Man-'o-War in every way.
A cube is 300-1,000 cards mashed together to play out Magic in what the cube creator(s) thinks will be the most interesting, broken, or fun way possible. I personally don't play cards like Moat, Ensaring Bridge, Ankh of Mishra, Mind Twist, Power, etc. because they make for unfun games. That doesn't make them bad or good, it just means they don't belong in my cube. I made a concious effort of making Tinker and Tezzeret the Seeker really good in my cube, but I'll bet you there are many cubes which wouldn't include either one of them, or rather shouldn't.
Perhaps Sun Ce is more powerful in my cube than your cube. Maybe I haven't gathered enough data on either one of them to determine which of them are correct. Maybe all three merit inclusion. I posted in this thread what my experience has been, and that is that MoW and Cloudskate have not been as good as Sun.
I'll post my cube in the next couple weeks and perhaps you can help me find room for the 2-power beaters again, but I'm telling you; the on deck list is ginormous for blue.
In my cube most U/x control decks run between 6-9 kill cards on average and Man-'o-War and Cloudskate are outclassed by Sun every time. None of the people in my play group have expressed their lament for me cutting either of those cards, but are certainly quick to point out how insane Sun has been for them.
How good each of these cards really depends on what your goal is for your colors, archtypes, and power level. Like I said, I'd like to find room to fit him back in as I think he's great in general, but I'm in the process of experimenting with less traditional cards and so far cutting him has been the right choice IMHO.
Since most people typically run less blue creatures than blue spells in their cubes, the power-level of said creatures really needs to hit heavy. In my cube I personally promote aggro decks above all else, so while Man-'o-War might be better than the other cards in a vacuum, I believe he does not do the job better than Pestermite or Sun Ce, Young Conqurer to help this strategy. I also think many people are trying to streamline their cubes and promote specific archtypes (W/x Aggro, R/x Burn, Reanimator, 5-Color, etc.) and I don't believe Man-'o-War feels at home in these sorts of decks like the other two do.
I will concede that I've been trying to find room to bring the little Jellyfish back in, but there are just so many better cards waiting to get their time to shine.
I recently cut Riftwing Cloudskate (was Man-'o-War before that) in favor of Sun Ce, Young Conquerer, and holy smokes is this guy good. I was also going to try out Kiri-Onna, but I'm pretty sure Sun isn't leaving any time soon.
I think it really depends on what direction you're taking your cube. I have played some cubes which are much less focused on aggro and promote the control, 5c, and midrange strategies. These cubes run more counterspells, wraths, 3-color dragons (all invasion and PC dragons) and ~15% land. Powered cubes also make casting the dragons easier.
I run a 540 card cube and only have 8-10 tri-color cards at any given time (excluding cards like EE, or Etched Oracle). It's very tempting to want to add dragons, charms, split cards, etc., but like you said, I think it's important not to force your players into specific colors or sticking them with 15th pick Treva. I think it's equally important not to make your players too anxious to draft the non-basic lands early. That's not to say that I don't promote 5c decks; in fact, it's quite the contrary. I just don't think there's much to gain by running a card like Bant Charm over Pyroclasm or Esper Charm over Compulsive Research. If there are mono-colored cards which do the same job, you have one or more effects which are competing for the spot, or the card has an awkward casting cost, I usually don't consider it.
Broodmate Dragon, on the other hand...that guy is just plain unreal. BD and Rith, the Awakener are the only 3-color dragons which have made the cut in my cube.
On the B-Ring subject: I run Barbarian Ring, and Keldon Necropolis. When my cube was 360 cards, I only ran Barbarian Ring. I think it's just plain better than Megaliths or Necropolis. For the record I think Megaliths is terrible.