MTG Salvation

Quote from 22bebo

Are the books about the Yuuzan Vong any good? They're some of the only main storyline one's I've never read, and I'm wondering if I should . . .

I was a massive Star Wars fan for a long time. The Vong stories (New Jedi Order) were the last things I read. I don't think I quite finished them, but the first few I read were very good. They were the only books that ever made Luke truly seem like a badass to me. He was much older in them (they take place something like 25 years after Yavin if I remember right) so I guess that lent him a certain credibility I found he lacked in other stories.

Anyway, I'm surprised no one mentioned Star Wars CCG! Or maybe you guys did and I missed it. Did anyone else play that? I barely even remember how it worked but I had every card worth a damn from that game. I sold my entire collection a few years ago for like $300. Way, wayyyy more than I thought I'd get.

A LOTR set would be amazing too. I believe Decipher, the same company that made SWCCG, made a brief LOTR CCG that was also supposed to be terrible. I also remember owning the LOTR RPG they made. Such a ridiculous waste that it didn't go to Wizards like Star Wars did. I would have loved a full out LOTR D&D Campaign Setting back in the day. Nobody else would do such a good job.

You're totally right, he did write Killing Joke. Which is excellent. I guess I meant more like he didn't have a long run on the series or anything. Killing Joke is a very short book.

I don't mean to say that anyone who is born with intelligence is blue. Though he obviously has an aptitude for learning, Batman isn't necessarily born a boy genius. He accomplishes it by hard work (that ethos probably comes from White).

If the argument is that motivation is what defines someone's color, then I have no answer to it. Of course, Batman's motivation is White. No doubt about it. I still think he's blue enough to have at least one symbol on his card. I definitely think he's more blue than green. That superhuman willpower and obstinate nature can be attributed to White easily enough, I think. It's true he's been trained by monks in far off lands, that goes way back. But he's mostly trained by assassins. Some of the people he learned from I'd define as Black, which he realizes later on. He takes what he can learn from them and adapts it to his own purposes, falling short of actually killing.

Also, in the movies it looks like he outsources most of his technology to Lucius Fox, but in many (not all) of the comics the vast majority of it is his own inventions. Batman the tinkerer is lost in the movies.

I suppose my overall statement is that if Batman played Magic, he'd probably use a predominantly Blue/White deck, probably using lots of artifacts.:)

Lots and lots and lots to say here...I'm just going to tackle this one post for now.

Quote from Ilvaldi

And also to note, unlike Blue, this "guile" of Green's is not intentionally created. Green did not necessarily create the environment to deceive its enemies the way that Blue may create an illusion. Green simply took advantage of the surroundings that were readily available

Okay, I think this is a huge point in the difference between blue and green. I'm not going to bother rephrasing it, I just agree wholeheartedly.

Quote from Ilvaldi »

The members of a Green community do not acknowledge the existence of each other, but acknowledge the fact that they are not the only beings in the world. Members of Green's community would take a fruit from a tree for food, but would make sure to leave the seed behind. In a sense, Green BORROWS from the land. White, however, would force its community to SHARE its resources. White would gather its members and form a collective pool of commons that its members could grab, disregarding individual debt and proprietorship, but concerning more with the strength and wealth of that collective pool.

I can definitely get behind that. Thanks for helping me understand.

Quote from Ilvaldi »

This effect can hardly be seen in the form of a card as Sylvan Library could very easily be printed as a black enchantment, even though the basis for how it is a black enchantment would be very different from how it is a green enchantment.

That would have been a really interesting card in Planar Chaos.

Quote from Ilvaldi »

I find it interesting that if you replace the word "White" with "Red" in your statement, you'd get a description close to what a red burn deck is like. Strange isn't it? Especially after I had just asked that question about how Red and White are poor card drawers...

Some of that is true. I don't think red is designed to keep other colors back from their excesses (though both white and red are great colors for punishing an overextender). It also has the weakest tutors I do totally agree that in a great burn deck, or RDW even more so, every card should be absolutely essential to the design of the deck and of maximum efficiency. However, in both my burn and RDW decks since I am truly blue I admit I run Wheel of Fortune. I know it's got red flavor since you have to discard your hand, but for my purposes, I only use it when my hand is empty (which happens a lot in a burn deck). So for my purposes, WoF more or less reads "Draw seven cards" for three mana.

Quote from Ilvaldi »

By the way, intuition is a Blue card. Though I have a theory as to why this is so, why don't we have another discussion and ask why do you guys think that intuition is Blue and whether or not it should also be Green.

I think it could easily have worked as a hybrid Blue/Green card. Like you said, I think we might analyze the pie a lot more than they do at times, and I think with strict analysis the card name "Intuition" should have been used for green, if not the actual rules text of the card. I welcome your theory.

Quote from Ilvaldi »

That's questionable. We've seen cards like Primordial Sage, Magus of the Library, Garruk's Packleader, drumhunter, and Heartwood storyteller all draw cards.

And Soul's Majesty, which I really think is a telling Green card.

Quote from Ilvaldi »

Men like Richard Dawkins, for example, are defined as PITGOATs (People In The Grip Of A Theory). Dawkins is not a PITGOAT for believing in evolution theory, but a PITGOAT for believing that all Christians don't think for themselves.

I will exclude myself from this particular debate, but I will say that Hitchens is more of a PITGOAT than Dawkins.

Quote from Ilvaldi »

You guys are all talking about Batman right now. What color do you think the Dark Knight is? White. Really, Batman is not very much Blue.

This I disagree with. True, Batman is mostly white. The theme of the overall comic book and the mantra of the character is very much in line with white. However, if Batman were a card, he'd have to AT LEAST cost one blue.

Quote from Ilvaldi »

Batman would only be Blue if he had some sort of scholarly or academic interest. But he doesn't. All he cares about is justice and upholding order in a chaotic world. Batman relies on knowledge and technology simply because he doesn't have superpowers. Everything he does has always been in the name of those principle. Batman researches, studies with monks, and hones his physical and mental abilities, all in the name of making himself a better crime fighter against the criminals of Gotham. Batman seeks out the wisdom of Green and the knowledge and tools of Blue to become as strong as his human body would let him. But this is different from the fact that Batman has the same values as Green or the same values as Blue.

Batman has a huge scholarly and academic interest. He's the greatest detective on earth, and in the DC Universe, probably competing with Luthor for the smartest human alive. It's true that his values are white, but his methods are very, very blue. Wouldn't that make him a White/Blue card? Examples:

Quote from Ilvaldi »

If Batman were Blue, he would probably be using guns and whatever other means to defeat his enemies, also possibly killing some of the more insane ones since they're never going to change their ways and are always going to break out of prison. Batman plays with rules. Batman wants to make Gotham a safer place, but he does not want to do it with murder or with guns.

Just because he doesn't use guns doesn't mean he isn't blue. It's the white in him that prevents him from using guns. What he does is one of the most blue things about him - he goes out of his way to invent and develop non-lethal technology to aid him in his job. He uses blue to get around that crucial hitch in his plans: his enemies aren't limited by his morals. Let's put it in card context:

Batman uses Thirst for Knowledge, and draws Grappling Hook, Path to Exile and Counterspell.

Couldn't you see Batman doing any combination of discarding and playing those spells? And boy does PtE work for the Bat. Also, Batman is a great example of how white cards can have Shadow

Counterspell is a card that applies to Batman, I think, because he is so often two steps ahead of his enemies. Ever see Batman, the Animated Series? The intro to that show has a part where three thugs are trying to beat him up but nobody can hit him. Then he uses their own moves against them, ties them up and GTFO of there in a freakin Batmobile. Badass. And blue.

Also, I think that putting them in Arkham Asylum as opposed to killing them is the perfect White/Blue thing to do. Instead of murder, which is explicitly outlawed by his white alignment, he essentially donates them to science. They don't go to jail, they go to a mental hospital where scientists are continually trying to rehabilitate them (without much luck).

Again, I agree that his values are white, but he couldn't enforce them as effectively without being somewhat blue. Especially if blue is defined as the color of technology. On a side note, the hypothetical blue Batman you describe sounds a lot like the older Batman of The Dark Knight Returns (the comic). He does use guns, has a mono-blue Robin sidekick and is forced to use more technology because of his age. Also to kick Superman's ass he's got to fall back on blue.

You could make the argument that there's some green, but I don't think enough to show up on a card. If he's green at all, it's in a Ravnica sort of way, where he understands Gotham City so well it's like an elf in the forest.

Quote from Ilvaldi »

And while we're still on the topic about superheroes, I have to say that I like Batman more than I like Superman, but I think that Superman has a lot of potential to become a great character. There's a lot of creative limits you can push about writing the weakness of a character who can do everything.

Totally agreed. That's why he's still around! There is actually a huge creative limit because there are not many times in Superman's career where he himself is in physical danger. Frequently someone around him, or the entire world, is at stake.

Quote from Ilvaldi »

I think if the writers would have written Superman as a psychological story the same way Alan Moore did Batman, things would be interesting. But no, Superman just had to go all Hulk-smash.

If only Alan Moore ever wrote Batman. Instead he gave us the Night Owl. Well, at least Frank Miller did.

While we're on Alan Moore - here's a tricky one: What color is Rorschach? He is obsessed with order and justice, but hardly uses white methods.

Thanks Kenneth, that's a really cool list. I've been looking for a template of a budget zoo deck for a while. One of these days on here I'm going to see if we can get a good list of reasonably priced casual versions of popular legacy decks.

I think BBE can be a good replacement for Ranger if you already have them.

Great work on the card Xanth. If they printed that I'd have a four of. Van Gogh's work is public domain now, right? Wonder why they haven't gone on that yet. I really do miss the old artwork. It's basically evolved into glossy, modern comic book art. I have nothing against comic books, I like old comic art better too.

If Dream Fighter only cost one less I think it would be a much more usable card.
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Teferi's Trickster
1U
Creature - Faerie Rogue
0/2

Flying

Whenever Teferi's Trickster blocks or becomes blocked by a creature, Teferi's Trickster and that creature phase out. (While they're phased out, they're treated as though they don't exist. Each one phases in before its controller untaps during his or her next untap step.)
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EDIT:
Xanth, my only thing about the convert mechanic is a flavor issue. I feel like white, the color of Crusade, would be more interested in converting other colors than its own.

Quote from Xanth »

Convert (when you cast this, you may exchange this spell with target face-up exiled card you own of the same color and converted mana cost)

Could maybe become

Convert (when you cast this, you may exchange this spell with target non-white, face-up exiled card you own of the same converted mana cost. That spell becomes white.)

Granted that changes a heck of a lot, and your mechanic is probably a lot smoother.

ChannelFireball has Grand Architect for $5.00. Do you think it's worth it to buy a playset now or do you think he'll be any less than that in the near future? I kind of doubt it, and he could go up.

Quote from Xanth

captainahard, I missed that part of your post the first time I read through it, and I see that we are in complete agreement concerning White's role. My apologies for stating that my answer was different than those before mine!

Oh I didn't mean it like that - I just meant we are in total agreement!

Quote from Mr.Mindbreak »

batman has surely never lost to superman. He's just too great for that.

I think Superman knows it too. He's specifically asked Batman to kill him if he ever goes rogue. Batman usually beats him up. Also, Shazam! could pretty much kick the tar out of him any day.

Quote from 22bebo

I've never watched any of the Superman movies, as I'm not a fan of his. Too "Goody goody two-shoes" for me.

Quote from Mr.Mindbreak

if that's the case, watch Superman:Doomsday. You'll love it

That is a good one. Superman is the boy scout of super heroes, and at times can be too goody two-shoes for me as well. My uncle is a comic book writer and wrote Action Comics for a few years, and I personally thought his run was good and that made me more of a Superman fan. However, in truth I am a devout Batman fan and always have been, and take pleasure in the fact that he has never lost against Superman, at least not in anything I've read. I'd actually be interested in knowing - has anyone seen a time where Batman loses to Superman? I think it happened in Red Son, but that's an alternate reality.

Quote from Xanth

Now, 22bebobebobebobebo, have I got something to say about you-

After reading your posts and seeing the comical, the contemplative, the curious, and the serious facets of your personality through your words, I have concluded that while you state you are :symu::symb::symr:, you are quite actually :symu:!

Yup. That's true.

Quote from Xanth

Not every card has to be sensible, especially some of the weirder ones that have no similar cards to reference in their color. That being said, Mirri's Guile isn't that far off, and, in a rather clunky way, Sylvan Library does kind of what Mirri's Guile does, but the ability to draw extra cards at the cost of life is hardly sensible for Green or for Blue, and the reference to a library isn't Green either, so I would just count this as one of those awkward cards that was poorly designed with respect to the color pie.

I thought of Mirri's Guilde myself when reasoning about Sylvan Library. I thought for a second - maybe "guile" as a quality might be more Green than Blue. Then I remembered Guile, and facepalmed myself. However, I think there is still some merit in that idea, as I think guile implies sort of an innate ability to be crafty, and "innate" is not necessarily what blue does. But this is a small point and nowhere in the definition of the word "guile" does it say "innate," so that may be my personal belief.

Quote from Xanth

My answer is somewhat different than those provided so far. White is a color of things working in a purposeful way as part of a grand idea that defines their purpose. Much like religion, and sometimes it is as close to the concept of religion that any color may get. Basic values of karma and morality. The more purely White a deck is, the more it should naturally draw the cards that it needs when it needs them, or the cards that it will need later in a game before it's too late to draw them- this of course isn't taken literally, and believing in the heart of your cards won't improve your topdeck skills, but White cards are typically of two types- the type that are well-rounded and able to answer a wide variety of problems (Wrath effects for example), and the type that are very cost efficient and effective whenever you use them (Baneslayer angel, all white Planeswalkers, first-striking protection critters, etc). So for White to have card draw is to imply that it needs it to gain advantage over other colors because it lacks sufficient standalone responses and threats, which is certainly not the case, and it disagrees with White's philosophy of "trust in the right things and they will work out the way they are suppose/designed to".

This is more or less exactly what I was trying to say about white before, I was just burnt out from talking about green.

This:

An efficient mono-white deck doesn't worry as much about draw because every single card should be an important piece of the puzzle, and be welcomed.

was supposed to be what you said above.

Yeah they were new to it and a little quirky. Though Psionic Blast was awesome.

@Irmis - I was referring to Lex but Alexander will do too. Weren't Alexander and Braniac 5 BOTH in Crisis?

I would go black/blue for Lex too since he is super-intelligent, very quick and apt with technology. I can see there being a legitimate argument for him being mono black too. He'll do anything for power, and though I do believe blue is really the color for technology, Phyrexians show how they can back it with black too.

One of the major differences between green and blue is the fundamentals of how they achieve knowledge or intelligence.

Quote from Ilvaldi »

Furthermore, unlike Green, the premises in Blue's logic are actually filled with solid data. Careful study after study gathered in a meticulous fashion gives Blue's thinking almost a form to work with. Green on the other hand, may have anecdotes, common sensical knowledge, and intuitive guesses to discover truth, so Green's card draw is less precise. If you look at the card draw effects that Green has, a lot of them are actually pretty clunky in execution. Though many of them barely have any drawbacks, if not none whatsoever, a lot of them cost more than your typical Brainstorm or Ancestral Visions. Even more so, when you draw cards, you JUST draw cards. There is no funny business like manipulating the top cards of your deck, scrying 4 and then drawing 2, or anything like that.

I think this is very insightful. Remember, blue is all about the active pursuit of knowledge. Blue mages have been at it so long they have perfected it, at least more than any other color. Accumulated Knowledge is a good example of this. With progress, patience and work, you can get a lot for a little. Fact or Fiction is another good example. Green would never have a card like that. What it considers fact is fact, and what it considers fiction it naturalizes.

I think there are a few ways you could look at green's card draw.

One is a representation of the benefits of community or hive mind. Cards like Garruk's Packleader, Primordial Sage, Regal Force, Harmonize, Glimpse of Nature or obviously Collective Unconscious itself reflect this well. Green values community. As anyone who's seen Planet Earth can attest to, a single lion doesn't stand much of a chance against an elephant. But a pride of them displays real intelligence: cause a panic in the elephant community, separate one from the rest of the pack and use teamwork to bring it down and reap the rewards. Where Blue card draw is represented by expanding knowledge, you could probably make a case that a lot of Green card draw is represented by food, or at least nourishment. Maybe I will try and make that point at a later date.

Another way to represent green card draw is the circle of life. When something dies it can be replaced and accounted for later. The most obvious example is Recycle, which, as Ilvaldi would probably agree with, is rather clunky. There are many other cards that represent this though. Soul's Majesty, Compost, Fecundity, Greater Good, Kithkin Mourncaller, Momentous Fall, Nature's Resurgence and Pelakka Wurm are all cards I'd have a hard time imagining as Blue in any way.

At times, Black uses a similar mechanic. Mostly Black just drains life total for cards, but there are some times when they use creatures. The difference is fairly obvious though. Look at Reprocess vs. Recycle. Just the title alone gives you a fairly good grasp of intention. Momentous Fall honors the dead creature and makes sure, like the Native Americans, to use everything that creature has donated to nature. Dredge will nab you a single card even if you sacrifice Demon of Death's Gate.

One card I have trouble wrapping my head around is Sylvan Library. The best I can do with that is that maybe the Sylvan Library is like the "network" in Avatar. Or perhaps it's a collection of knowledge that only applies to Green and is somewhat clunky. It's also an old card, and the color pie gets a little weird when you venture back there.

Quote from Ilvaldi »

Here's more questions: What is White's relationship to the ally colors Green and Blue and how come White is not blessed with the card-drawing, mana-ramping, card advantage power that its Green and Blue have?

White provides order. White brings other colors a little bit back from their excesses. An efficient mono-white deck doesn't worry as much about draw because every single card should be an important piece of the puzzle, and be welcomed. Of course, there'll be times where you need a specific card and it would be nice to draw into it, but white does have tutors.

I'd imagine that the best school in Dominaria would be a Blue/White one. It provides the Thirst for Knowledge with the necessary structure it needs to flourish.

Is Braniac 5 the young Braniac? The one that was in Crisis? If so, then yes I absolutely agree. I also agree that regular Braniac is too hellbent to be blue, but perhaps he's blue/black? You could put Luthor there too.

Hello Hegemon, lots to talk about in your last post.


Also, thanks to Xanth, Blutsau and everyone else who helped me refine my mono blue artifact deck. I have a final version that I'll post on here soon. It's done very, very well in my meta, though I had to drop the control aspect to get it to work. Thanks for all the suggestions!

Quote from 22bebo

Blue has intelligence, not wisdom

I have no idea who you are or from where you come Bebo...so nice to meet you! Also, I agree with the above statement. I think it lines up neatly to the age old question every newcomer has when they start Dungeons and Dragons (or any RPG these days). What's the difference between intelligence and wisdom? I think you summed it up pretty well.

I used to run a UG elf deck that was lots of fun. I'd use Wirewood Channeler to create enough U to fuel boughtback Capsizes for selective mass bounce. I should put that back together, it was a good combination. It used the elvish super-cheap mechanics to do things that were actually complex, as opposed to a simple Banefire. I mean really, is that fun for people anymore?

Quote from poppeleseed

It's no longer "my deck", it belongs to the people now

I remember reading The Nightmare Effect for the first time and enjoying it, particularly because you used Krovikan Horror, an old school favorite.

@Blutsau

I agree that the Purple thing is borderline unworkable. It's entirely possible they have an awesome idea for in R&D but I doubt it.

I would also not mind more non-artifact colorless stuff. I love the Eldrazi stuff as a storyline idea (Lovecraft) but don't enjoy playing them or against them very much.

More SoM mechanics: