What advantage does a Proliferate deck have over a traditional UW or UB deck? Why would I play that when a deck without situational and slow cards is better?
While i agree with Proliferate deck being weaker then a typical UW deck. He does have a point in running a few clasps in a planeswalker style UW deck. Running like 4 walkers and proliferating is quite a good idea IMO. Yes I know it's not what he said. Just pointing out that it's not the worst idea ever. Maybe it's what he meant? Don't know.
I thought Maybe I was the only one using tradewinds. I use it to bounce my Spreading Seas, WoO, Gideon, Sunblasts, etc. It's a pretty nice card. I've gone away from Into the Roil altogether. It's a better CA. (it's 1 card for 1 draw either way, but it saves something at the same time and often blanks a removal spell or makes bad blocks amazing)
Think about this: Use Gideon. All creatures must attack him. On there turn they attack. Bounce the new dude they play or something tech and your Gideon. Then next turn replay him and Assassinate there dude. It's just better CA. Bouncing a Creeping Tarpit or Colonade is also potientally a lifesaver for you or your walker. Playing a Spreading Seas early to try and lock out a color for tempo then bouncing it to put on a Manland or Val is also possible where not so much with Into the Roil.
I very rarely agree with Coma White. (no disrespect intended) But that is pretty much dead on accurate.
I think there is almost never a bad card. But if there were a bad card it would be a 6 mana sorcery that is unpredictable and uncontrolable. It would be a card that One with Nothing totally destroys. It would be Recurring insight.
I love these discussion. And I love the flack that I get from them aswell. Mainly because I've been playing since the Dark came out and have been there playing standard the whole time, well until Lorwyn came out anyways.
I've sent several friends to the pro tour and played with friends that have been in Worlds. So now that you know abit of my background, then I can honestly tell you the best standard deck never existed. Atleast not on the "Known" scale. There are decks that never get to make it out of the closet because of prices, access to certain cards, Wizards putting focus elsewhere, etc. An example of this is my namesake card/deck. None of you have ever seen it or played agaisnt it but in it's time it was unstoppable. Just so you know I'm not bulling you. I played it at LA states to a 6th place finish. Play error on my end costed me the match, but i won 3 rounds against goblin bidding. (One of the decks you are saying is a continder for best stanard deck ever), beat MWC which was a beast of a deck then, beat Zombie Bidding which was better then goblin bidding btw, and smashed Affinity, and UW control.
Back to the point. The best deck for any format is a deck that has never been publicly known. Another example is back when ptog was smashing extended. A little deck ended up winning a southern Grand Prix. Turbo Land by Zvi. Most people didn't even know that deck existed. The only reason it got any viewings is because one of the best in the world played it. Same can be said for the blink decks just a few years ago. That deck was alot more known but still very little for how good the deck actually is.
Although I basically want to stick to the idea of artifact creatures with Tempered Steel and Steel Overseer, I admit the Myr angle might not be perfect, so I'm definitely open to other ideas about what the creature base should be.
The Baneslayer was just a sort of "ehh, while I can possibly get a lot of mana fast, so dropping her turn 3 could be cool" kinda throw in. There's probably something better.
The main idea is just like any aggro deck. Drop your creatures, hope they get bigger with Tempered Steel and Steel Overseer and attack until the opponent hopefully goes away.
So, what would ya'll suggest?
P.S: I absolutely, positively under no circumstances want to turn this into WW Quest. If that's what I wanted to build, I would have build that.
Cut 1 Mox for a land. They can't count as a land when you have 4 in the deck. 3 can basically be counted as 2 lands. Cut the Effergy down to about 2. That'll open up space for Chimeric Idol. It's pretty good when you are trying to get metalcraft going as well as good for after wrath when you have a Tempered Steel. Also if you do it for one then you can activate it eot when you would use your Overseerer. Myr Smith should probably have a place here as well as a copy or 2 of Darksteel Axe.
Another good combat card is Glint Hawk Idol Post Wrath you can activate it and equip with something and swing for like 6 flying.
Functions like typical RDW with the added effect of being able to steal you opps big dude with Act of Treason and then after attacking sac it to put them back even further. What do ya'll think?
Deck design is to make really effecient dudes and beat the opponent's face in. All the while producing crazy CA.
Dark Tutelage is the sore thumb of the deck. However this card is amazing when you control what is on top of your deck. After you stick a JtMS then you will never take damage from it again. Titan allows you to also be carefull with it as well because every attack or CIP can fetch Halimar Depths.
Conundrum Sphinx when combined with Oracle or Channelers is a nice size beater and every attack you get to draw.
I know you are thinking to just cut black. That would most likely be a mistake since your SB could include powerful cards like Memoricide or Doom Blade.
Well I know this is not the finished complete version and I hope to get some advise. Thank you all for your help.
Cool little deck idea I had. You want to build up enough mana to Wave for about 30 or so as fast as you can. Then ride the Planeswalkers to victory. I know it sounds easy enough, but it's really not that hard.
The deck has enough toughness to stop about any weenie decks assault, while has alot of card draw to dig to the counters to stop the sweepers from clearing out your board.
After you assemble a few walls you then do a small wave, then use Harness to produce mana off Overgrown Battlement to link into a bigger wave. After you do this then you can blink a Mnemonic wall every turn to be able to counter whatever spell that threatens your board position. Keep activating PWs to get to the final ability and win.
I don't get it. he plays a Grave Titan and gets two 2/2s. You clone it and get two 2/2s. He swings team and gets two more 2/2s you block with two 2/2s blocking the grave titan and one of the other 2/2s, or you trade with the grave titan and block the other 2/2s. Either way, he has more creatures left out and can beat you in a race.
Dude could have been at 1 life and the him at 20. You can't just think that just because someone said something it is because he is stupid. The U player could be playing Aether Adept, could have had a Mind control. There are an almost unlimited number of reasons why.
In our decks, the less the creatures the better. It makes a lot of creature kill cards dead. With that in mind, I did at one point play a WU deck w/ Gideon, Lightmine Field, Sunblast, and Venser. It did ok, but bouncing Sunblast is at sorcery speed, they can still overrun you and kill you prior to your next turn. I would pick Gideon Jura over Sunblast in this deck.
I agree that Gideon Jura should be run over the angel. But I'm saying maybe putting them together would be the way to go. Force the attack then clean the board and swing for 6 then 10 looks pretty good to me. Lightmine Field is a silly card and shouldn't be here IMO but Gideon, Sunblast and Venser could serve as great tech.
Green sets up multiple different fog spells. It also gives an additional manland. Tapping 3 for Wildwood is better than 5 for Colonnade, especially since you want to keep mana open for fog spells next turn.
Well it's basically tapping 4 for Wildwood or 5 for Colonnade when your on the attack. Which I can't see happening anywhere remotely close to the early game. However for the fog effects I can't get. Some of the builds are adding a whole color just for 4 fogs. That is insane. Just play the full set of Safe Passage and another Doj to fill that role. DoJ and Safe Passage also set up your Ascension alot better then Fog does.
My goal is fog, fog, fog, fog, fog, fog, etc. I dont care what they ramp into unless they have Eldrazi. Then I use repel the darkness and play it over and over and over again. I use Venser and Mnemonic Wall to recast the spell of choice. Also once they have dumped their entire hand then I play DOJ, but I exile the wall w/ venser first. Once i end the turn the wall comes back and gets the DOJ or other spell...
Sorry if I calling it titan Ramp was the wrong name. I'm mainly talking about that lightning bolt land.... Sorry the name escapes me at the moment. But it's easy to get turn 3-4 Titan and get 2 of them out. Then the only fog effect you have to save you is Safe Passage. (More reason to drop green again) Spreading seas and edge would atleast give you another possible out.
Hey, Sorry I have not read all the posts, but I'm mainly wondering if you have considered running Sunblast Angel? That with Venser would be a deterant to not attack you. As well as being big enough to finish a game when needed.
Also maybe you could do something with Contagion Clasp. It looks very strong when you think about all your counters you make. Ascension and planeswalkers.
Have you considered dropping green altogether? Looks like it's only there for fog and garruk. Neither are that good in here. Looks like green just complicates your mana base and makes other cards not playable. IE if you took out Green then you could run more basics and potientally play things like Emeria, the Sky Ruin and or Halimar Depths. Depths to set up your next draws to grab an angel or fog effect. Emeria would be great at stopping attacks by returning one of your walls.
What is your game plan for Titan Ramp? Looks like you could use the compliment of Spreading Seas and Edges. Removing Green also helps you out in this department. As well as making you less likely to be effected by seas played against you. I know you think to add in Leylines. And that is all well and good, but people are boarding in Naturalizes automatically if you play white. Just offers extra aid.
Since you are running Sun Titan then maybe a few Sphinx of Lost Truths could work for you. Draw a few cards then drop cards into the grave that you will just reanimate in the turns to come. If nothing else it'll dig for you tools or at the very least it's a guy that Jace won't want to bounce.
I also enjoyed the read. But I think you did a few things wrong. #1 equip should be endurance A+. They will probably always have equips in every set or block and there is no way they will ever run out of ideas for the keyword. #2 Banding should have been #1. I mean come on man.
While i agree with Proliferate deck being weaker then a typical UW deck. He does have a point in running a few clasps in a planeswalker style UW deck. Running like 4 walkers and proliferating is quite a good idea IMO. Yes I know it's not what he said. Just pointing out that it's not the worst idea ever. Maybe it's what he meant? Don't know.
I thought Maybe I was the only one using tradewinds. I use it to bounce my Spreading Seas, WoO, Gideon, Sunblasts, etc. It's a pretty nice card. I've gone away from Into the Roil altogether. It's a better CA. (it's 1 card for 1 draw either way, but it saves something at the same time and often blanks a removal spell or makes bad blocks amazing)
Think about this: Use Gideon. All creatures must attack him. On there turn they attack. Bounce the new dude they play or something tech and your Gideon. Then next turn replay him and Assassinate there dude. It's just better CA. Bouncing a Creeping Tarpit or Colonade is also potientally a lifesaver for you or your walker. Playing a Spreading Seas early to try and lock out a color for tempo then bouncing it to put on a Manland or Val is also possible where not so much with Into the Roil.
I very rarely agree with Coma White. (no disrespect intended) But that is pretty much dead on accurate.
I think there is almost never a bad card. But if there were a bad card it would be a 6 mana sorcery that is unpredictable and uncontrolable. It would be a card that One with Nothing totally destroys. It would be Recurring insight.
I've sent several friends to the pro tour and played with friends that have been in Worlds. So now that you know abit of my background, then I can honestly tell you the best standard deck never existed. Atleast not on the "Known" scale. There are decks that never get to make it out of the closet because of prices, access to certain cards, Wizards putting focus elsewhere, etc. An example of this is my namesake card/deck. None of you have ever seen it or played agaisnt it but in it's time it was unstoppable. Just so you know I'm not bulling you. I played it at LA states to a 6th place finish. Play error on my end costed me the match, but i won 3 rounds against goblin bidding. (One of the decks you are saying is a continder for best stanard deck ever), beat MWC which was a beast of a deck then, beat Zombie Bidding which was better then goblin bidding btw, and smashed Affinity, and UW control.
Back to the point. The best deck for any format is a deck that has never been publicly known. Another example is back when ptog was smashing extended. A little deck ended up winning a southern Grand Prix. Turbo Land by Zvi. Most people didn't even know that deck existed. The only reason it got any viewings is because one of the best in the world played it. Same can be said for the blink decks just a few years ago. That deck was alot more known but still very little for how good the deck actually is.
Cut 1 Mox for a land. They can't count as a land when you have 4 in the deck. 3 can basically be counted as 2 lands. Cut the Effergy down to about 2. That'll open up space for Chimeric Idol. It's pretty good when you are trying to get metalcraft going as well as good for after wrath when you have a Tempered Steel. Also if you do it for one then you can activate it eot when you would use your Overseerer. Myr Smith should probably have a place here as well as a copy or 2 of Darksteel Axe.
Another good combat card is Glint Hawk Idol Post Wrath you can activate it and equip with something and swing for like 6 flying.
4 Goblin Bushwacker
4 Kargan Dragonlord
2 Viscera Seer
4 Bloodthrone Vampire
4 Ember Hauler
2 Molten-Tail Masticore
4 Act of Treason
2 Doom Blade
3 Arc Trail
3 Staggershock
Functions like typical RDW with the added effect of being able to steal you opps big dude with Act of Treason and then after attacking sac it to put them back even further. What do ya'll think?
4 Mul Daya Channelers
4 Conundrum Sphinx
2 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Primeval Titan
4 Preordain
4 Explore
4 Negate
3 Dark Tutelage
2 Jace Beleren
4 Halimar Depths
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tarpit
4 Forest
4 Island
1 Swamp
Dark Tutelage is the sore thumb of the deck. However this card is amazing when you control what is on top of your deck. After you stick a JtMS then you will never take damage from it again. Titan allows you to also be carefull with it as well because every attack or CIP can fetch Halimar Depths.
Conundrum Sphinx when combined with Oracle or Channelers is a nice size beater and every attack you get to draw.
I know you are thinking to just cut black. That would most likely be a mistake since your SB could include powerful cards like Memoricide or Doom Blade.
Well I know this is not the finished complete version and I hope to get some advise. Thank you all for your help.
4 Wall of Omen
2 Perimeter Captain
3 Mnemonic Wall
4 Sea Gate Oracle
2 Venser, the Sojourner
3 Jace, the Mindsculpter
2 Jace Beleren
4 Negate
3 Genesis Wave
2 Rite of Replication
4 Halimar Depths
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Seachrome Coast
3 Graypelt Refuge
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Island
2 Perimeter Captain
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Aether Adept
3 Sun titan
3 Sunblast Angel
Cool little deck idea I had. You want to build up enough mana to Wave for about 30 or so as fast as you can. Then ride the Planeswalkers to victory. I know it sounds easy enough, but it's really not that hard.
The deck has enough toughness to stop about any weenie decks assault, while has alot of card draw to dig to the counters to stop the sweepers from clearing out your board.
After you assemble a few walls you then do a small wave, then use Harness to produce mana off Overgrown Battlement to link into a bigger wave. After you do this then you can blink a Mnemonic wall every turn to be able to counter whatever spell that threatens your board position. Keep activating PWs to get to the final ability and win.
Dude could have been at 1 life and the him at 20. You can't just think that just because someone said something it is because he is stupid. The U player could be playing Aether Adept, could have had a Mind control. There are an almost unlimited number of reasons why.
If that is your intention, then may I suggest Conquering Manticore?
Well it's basically tapping 4 for Wildwood or 5 for Colonnade when your on the attack. Which I can't see happening anywhere remotely close to the early game. However for the fog effects I can't get. Some of the builds are adding a whole color just for 4 fogs. That is insane. Just play the full set of Safe Passage and another Doj to fill that role. DoJ and Safe Passage also set up your Ascension alot better then Fog does.
Sorry if I calling it titan Ramp was the wrong name. I'm mainly talking about that lightning bolt land.... Sorry the name escapes me at the moment. But it's easy to get turn 3-4 Titan and get 2 of them out. Then the only fog effect you have to save you is Safe Passage. (More reason to drop green again) Spreading seas and edge would atleast give you another possible out.
Also maybe you could do something with Contagion Clasp. It looks very strong when you think about all your counters you make. Ascension and planeswalkers.
Have you considered dropping green altogether? Looks like it's only there for fog and garruk. Neither are that good in here. Looks like green just complicates your mana base and makes other cards not playable. IE if you took out Green then you could run more basics and potientally play things like Emeria, the Sky Ruin and or Halimar Depths. Depths to set up your next draws to grab an angel or fog effect. Emeria would be great at stopping attacks by returning one of your walls.
What is your game plan for Titan Ramp? Looks like you could use the compliment of Spreading Seas and Edges. Removing Green also helps you out in this department. As well as making you less likely to be effected by seas played against you. I know you think to add in Leylines. And that is all well and good, but people are boarding in Naturalizes automatically if you play white. Just offers extra aid.
Next best is Tempered Steel which could be a format defining card after rotation.
Then Mox opal