* Is wotc catering to such individuals?
I'd have to say no, it's pretty balanced at this point in time. The M.R. article poses the balance between the people who want the RL and the people who don't. I think the creation of the modern format and demonstrated intent in the form of the MM series of reprints makes it clear that for sets going forward, the intent is to reprint, i.e. cater to you guys, so long-term it's actually going against collector/investor individuals - we all know that when collecting any modern-legal sets, especially sets with big-money cards that the set is quite likely to diminish in value over time. You guys won the reprint war going forward so if anything, it's pretty biased towards your side ^^
I'll absolutely agree with you here, you're right with modern legal sets going forward WotC does seem to be siding with the player, but that does nothing to revive Vintage, or rejuvenate Legacy. Whats being done for those that prefer true eternal formats, over the modern ones?
* Does this type of individual, either of them, result in older formats dying (at least locally)?
Hm, this is a pretty serious issue that I feel the need to address. You are saying that some individual(s) can buy/trade for the legacy cards locally and just hoard them or something, resulting in some harm to the game. Speaking for myself locally, there aren't a huge number of individuals playing the legacy format and also a small number of such individuals actually have the cards I'd have wanted. Consequently from the get-go I decided to do most of my trading online and thus don't leech off the local cardpool in any form. Many of the local players I know do the same, for the same reasons and one could argue that due to our trading and buying online we are expanding the local legacy cardbase, especially on a semi-regular basis when we trade staples off for standard cards that are or may become legacy staples as well, i.e. deathrite shaman, some notable planeswalkers, etc. Also, when I attend legacy events, due to my owning several different complete legacy decks, I'm willing, able (and have done this several times already) to loan people complete legacy decks so I'd say that's resulting in older formats not dying. In fact, due to my collection alone I can guarantee the format doesn't 'die' in my area for lack of cards since I can lend out close to a dozen competitive decks, which is actually almost double the legacy attendance at my lgs.
Is your LGS small? By which I mean is that about average attendance for all tourneys or just legacy? If those are the only the legacy numbers do you think prices are a contributing factor, or do you believe its some other issue with legacy? And besides my point wasn't that there was some local MTG kingpin buying up all the legacy staples destroying the local cardpool, but rather since there are those (this guy), whose hoarding, along with WotC's policy against reprints, drives prices, and thus the entry barrier to Legacy(never mind Vintage) into the stratosphere.
And its awesome that you're generous enough to lend out your decks. Now just convince that guy in the video, lol.
* Difference between collectors vs serious investors, i.e. retirement fund
There might be some differences to these indeed worth discussing but I have not actually met or seen such extreme individuals. First off, let's talk about retirement-level funds since I feel we might have a disconnect here. Nobody, absolutely nobody I know does mtg investing on even a ... say, $50k scale so by no means are we talking about anything close to retirement-level unless we are seriously considering five figures as sufficient for retirement. It is due to inflated concerns of actual buying power that I posited a comparison a few pages back between buying mtg and buying a house b/c after all, if you're swinging that level of cash, you should be similarly worried about value depreciation. Anyway, I know some of the financial writers people read articles from online and they aren't swinging anywhere close to a $50k figure (pm me for details and if you know guys, any at all, who 'invest' in mtg in figures like these or above, send me a pm b/c I'm curious to know!)
By saying 'retirement fund' I was engaging in hyperbole, a rhetorical device with which you exaggerate your point, in order to make it clear. To state more plainly, the game is damaged by WotC's catering to a group of people who feel entitled to a return on investment, though rather than investing in bonds or gold, or any number of other things, with a more stable, nay almost guaranteed Roi, they chose to buy a piece of cardboard.
So let's start with something more basic, say $5k, which is almost the roth ira contribution limit for qualified individuals and this seems reasonable as an 'investment'. Do some people 'invest' in mtg at these levels? For the primary purpose of financial appreciation? Hrm. Do they buy the cards? Sure. How many say, underground seas can you buy with 5k? 45 if you get them pretty cheap? That's really not making much of a dent in the overall numbers and it's ... a bit of a stretch to say this is killing your local game since everybody presumably has access to the internet and the lgs stock, no? Also, while we're on the subject of holding card stock, do you want to consider maybe blaming the stores of the same things you are blaming investors, collectors, etc. of, i.e killing the format(s)? After all, stores generally hold >$5k of legacy cards, they certainly try to take advantage of the customer by selling for retail prices and buying at buylist prices but I haven't really seen much discussion on the legions of new mtg stores and the stock of cards they hold as contributing to rising prices in mtg or whatnot
Local game stores sell cards (generalization I'm sure there are some bad eggs out there) at a fair price given the current state of the secondary market, as do SCG and TCG and any of the other online outfits that I'm aware of. And you're right again the hoarders aren't damaging the cardpool. Legacy cards are available, just at prices that most consider unattainable. Last I've been to my local game store, they were selling Underground Sea for $200, Starcity has a playset that someone scribbled on for $600. I know that my personal Magic budget is nowhere near those prices, nor would I spend that much on ONE card. Many others seem to feel the same.
I feel like you're not really addressing the central point of PosterX's argument, which while clumsily stated, is that there is a noted difference between a collector, and a, shall we call them investor in the game. And in my opinion there absolutely is an issue with the company catering to people who decided the best place for their retirement fund was a piece of cardboard from a children's card game, especially when older formats are dying(at least locally) as a result of it.
@kirin - This thread was created to clarify some misconceptions and because the title of the other thread doesn't hold friendly connotations for me If I have to keep seeing a derogatory thread title bumped, I've got the right to create a counterpoint, eh?
@citynoise - Hrm it's interesting that you consider it ok if cards are in decks. Not sure about the other collectors but I've got close to a dozen legacy decks mostly complete other than sb that I switch for events depending on the mood, a few edh decks and a cube I'm working on using the cards in my collection so I think I qualify for using cards, I think.
In regards to "hurting the game" though I'd like us all to step back and look at this objectively. Are card prices increasing? Sure, that's a primary complaint. Now let me ask - is tourney attendance DECREASING? Over the past say, two years, card prices have increased and tourney attendance has increased. Just making a point that prices are not currently hurting the game. Are they hurting you? If you're complaining, they probably are. Will this 'hurt the game' in the future? Hrm nobody really knows. Ten, fifteen years back the majority opinion was that the game was dying and the card prices were ridiculous, hundred dollars for a lotus? Wow. Now? It costs more, several cards are close to the price it used to be at and people are buying and buying. Wotc seems to have figured it out - the game is more popular than before and making more money for the company. Figure out the business objectives and it will all be clear.
A comparison I just thought about regarding people on opposite ends of a similar pricing dilemma is the housing market. If you saved for many years to buy a house, let's say this was in pre-bust 2008 and then you had the choice of having the bubble burst like it did so that many more people could afford homes or keeping home prices the same, which would you choose? Remember, having the housing bubble burst allows for many many more people to have access to a home and grow the communities so let's not all be selfish now, it's fine if your house value decreases by 50%, after all you're in it for the stability and comfort of a home and not to speculate on the housing market, right? Think about it a bit and you may find that your answer greatly hinges upon whether or not you did buy that house and instantly lose value. So it is perhaps a bit more of a 'what's right for you' question as opposed to 'what's right for everybody' ^^
That depends what format are you referring to? Modern, standard, and limited have all increased, but locally at least our Legacy tourneys are lucky to get 8 people.
And regarding your housing analogy, the home I purchased has inherent value to me as a dwelling, I didn't purchase it as an investment, I purchased it as a place to live. If others can now purchase and own a place to live, that's amazing. Same thing with cards, they have an inherent value as a playing piece for a game we all play. If others can now have the pieces too, that's amazing.
Yeah CM hosts a bunch of Star City Invitational Qualifiers, and similar events. I usually draft(not recently I loved Inn, but hated InnDA, hate AVR) at OP, FNM at packards Oak Ridge, and play standard tourneys at CM. CM at West Town re-opened yesterday. Another thing Odie, my suggestions are all based off of going to a midnight prerelease, so outside of that I might not be the best to ask. Won't be at m13 prerelease, driving to Atlanta to see Reel Big Fish, and Suburban Legends.
OP is a really nice place, so is the Packard in oak ridge. I wouldn't go to cedar bluff it's super tiny. There's also cm games at west town mall. It's a good fun place as well. If you're looking for a big crowd Packard oak ridge, or cm games.
I didn't say I wasn't I said there is no evidence that I am other than people reading too much into my description of artists. What that says about those people lol. Well I don't have much faith in humanity so ya please go on with the gibberish. Guess what? Artists often hate men, artists often hate women, artists are often messed in the head. But hey pointing out the obvious is.. inappropriate to annoying people.
Well no, the problem here is that you're displaying bigotry, by making negative generalizations of an entire group of people. That's bigotry. Through your use of bigotry, we extrapolate that you are a bigot. The artists and writers in my (that's right there's more than one) community are some of the most tolerant and inclusive people I've ever met.
I knew a guy like you once. Always, always with the 'I'm not a racist or anything, but *the most racist thing you've ever heard*. You can claim not to be a bigot if you like, but we here in reality know the difference.
I played Legacy FNM last night, at a store I'd never been to before, and had 3 of 5 opponents either ask if they could, or say that I could, mulligan to 7 on the first mulligan. My answer was no each time. I don't know if they were new players, or if its this store's rules, but I lol'ed a bit.
I mean whether it's centrally directed, you know that art is produced by artists, and they're all pervs and feminazis (well open to the woman point of view at least oftentimes, though more chauvinists among male artists than the gen population I'd say as well).
Can an opponent controlling a Spellskite choose to redirect the equip effect from an equipment? I'm thinking no, because the equip keyward specifies a creature you control.
1.) Pyromancer Ascension+Grapeshot[/CARD] If Grapeshot is copied by the ascension, does the copied Grapeshot generate storm copies as well?
2.) Past in Flames My interpretation of this card is that it effects instants and sorceries in my graveyard at the point it resolves, and that other cards that hit the 'yard after will not have flashback, is that correct?
I was under the impression SBEs happened simultaneously, and so the counter would be zapped by the time it hit the graveyard. I'm not disputing that you're correct, but could you clarify a bit?
Ok so lets say that I've got aStrangleroot Geist in play, with a +1/+1 counter, and my opponent Black Sun's Zeniths for 2. What happens? Also sorry for completely mis labeling the thread.
Basic situation: Opponent plays Consume Spirit on Dewdrop Spy for 4(Total cost for spell being 6), friend then plays Spellstutter Sprite, to counter. If I am not mistaken if he played a copy effect it would copy the x=4 part but would the sprite care about that? To summarize, would the Sprite counter the spirit?
I'll absolutely agree with you here, you're right with modern legal sets going forward WotC does seem to be siding with the player, but that does nothing to revive Vintage, or rejuvenate Legacy. Whats being done for those that prefer true eternal formats, over the modern ones?
Is your LGS small? By which I mean is that about average attendance for all tourneys or just legacy? If those are the only the legacy numbers do you think prices are a contributing factor, or do you believe its some other issue with legacy? And besides my point wasn't that there was some local MTG kingpin buying up all the legacy staples destroying the local cardpool, but rather since there are those (this guy), whose hoarding, along with WotC's policy against reprints, drives prices, and thus the entry barrier to Legacy(never mind Vintage) into the stratosphere.
And its awesome that you're generous enough to lend out your decks. Now just convince that guy in the video, lol.
By saying 'retirement fund' I was engaging in hyperbole, a rhetorical device with which you exaggerate your point, in order to make it clear. To state more plainly, the game is damaged by WotC's catering to a group of people who feel entitled to a return on investment, though rather than investing in bonds or gold, or any number of other things, with a more stable, nay almost guaranteed Roi, they chose to buy a piece of cardboard.
Local game stores sell cards (generalization I'm sure there are some bad eggs out there) at a fair price given the current state of the secondary market, as do SCG and TCG and any of the other online outfits that I'm aware of. And you're right again the hoarders aren't damaging the cardpool. Legacy cards are available, just at prices that most consider unattainable. Last I've been to my local game store, they were selling Underground Sea for $200, Starcity has a playset that someone scribbled on for $600. I know that my personal Magic budget is nowhere near those prices, nor would I spend that much on ONE card. Many others seem to feel the same.
I feel like you're not really addressing the central point of PosterX's argument, which while clumsily stated, is that there is a noted difference between a collector, and a, shall we call them investor in the game. And in my opinion there absolutely is an issue with the company catering to people who decided the best place for their retirement fund was a piece of cardboard from a children's card game, especially when older formats are dying(at least locally) as a result of it.
That depends what format are you referring to? Modern, standard, and limited have all increased, but locally at least our Legacy tourneys are lucky to get 8 people.
And regarding your housing analogy, the home I purchased has inherent value to me as a dwelling, I didn't purchase it as an investment, I purchased it as a place to live. If others can now purchase and own a place to live, that's amazing. Same thing with cards, they have an inherent value as a playing piece for a game we all play. If others can now have the pieces too, that's amazing.
Well no, the problem here is that you're displaying bigotry, by making negative generalizations of an entire group of people. That's bigotry. Through your use of bigotry, we extrapolate that you are a bigot. The artists and writers in my (that's right there's more than one) community are some of the most tolerant and inclusive people I've ever met.
I knew a guy like you once. Always, always with the 'I'm not a racist or anything, but *the most racist thing you've ever heard*. You can claim not to be a bigot if you like, but we here in reality know the difference.
Careful you're letting your inner bigot show.
Signed,
A semi-professional artist.
2.) Past in Flames My interpretation of this card is that it effects instants and sorceries in my graveyard at the point it resolves, and that other cards that hit the 'yard after will not have flashback, is that correct?