why am i imagining it? because they run four of both of those cards ( honor/crusader ). at worst they miss their 4th land drop for 1-2 turns and its still over quick.
if you were on the draw you just tapped all but G and you won't be naturalizing any thing, unless you sit there and play another manadork / other 2 caster . on the play i suppose you could equip and sit there not attacking or play nothing and wait to equip.
Ietherway your still taking four and hoping they play something ( if they havn't already ) that you can get rid of, but if i saw a Mono-G player not tap out i would just ignore it because your already on the defensive.
our bigboy ( dungrove ) is only as good as we have land drops. our ideal curve is obviously a SoWap equipped t3 against them however while we sit there and mana ramp to a good play, they do it naturally. if we get disrupted by losing the sword we lose prot white. if we drop their enchantments they still get through.
essentially. if i miss a single way to put pressure on the opo during the course of the first 4 turns and cannot continue to put presure on them, i lose. they dont even have to block because they can easily out race us.
Last time I checked running 4 of 2 things meant you still ended up getting them both way less than half the time by turn 4. It seems to be your goal to create an imaginary scenario in which MGA loses this matchup...yes, that is not hard to imagine. Because of crusader I would say this is one of our worst matchups, if not the worst.
The point is to discuss the best way for the deck to deal with crusader. My point is that he is much less deadly when not buffed, and naturalize is a great, versatile way to do that, that doesn't waste slots.
It is possible to play around crusader. Try to naturalize where possible, try to chip away until an overrun/bellowing wins it, try to buy time with pw they will hopefully swing at if they don't have good board position, swing back and race if they don't have good board position, etc. All it takes is a little luck on ur side and no mistakes to win.
Spending slots to improve a 40-60 matchup to a 45-55 matchup is not worth it imo. I'm not sure you have a point other than that we should scoop to T1 plains and while I agree it's a bad matchup, its far from auto-lose.
The 4x sowap was much better when u were for sure either playing humans or spirits. Budget concerns aside, I think the best bet is is 2/2 split now, since ramp and zombies are around. Also, if you are running overrun in ur list, sobam seems like a reasonable substitute, probably for one of the sofaf, to just flood the field in non sweeper matchups.
the last time i got hit for 4 by a crusader was a game they lost.
now imagine their ideal curveout
t1 stupid traveler :::: t1 birds (tapout)
t2 honor ( 2dmg ) :::: t2 dungrove (tapout)
t3 crusader ( likely 2dmg ) t3 gsz for another? (tapout)
t4 destiny..... attack for 16 t4 take it because you just gsz'd
thats gg within a turn unless you have an answer NOW
Why are we necessarily imagining their ideal curve out? If they get that hand we get our ideal hand too and we hit them with sowap llanowar T3, and then naturalize the destiny T4. But beyond that, the honor and the destiny are what killed u, that's my point. And the hate for those is readily available, and very good against the rest of the deck, not to mention being good against other decks, unlike perilous myr and tumble magnet...or running any number of 6 mana untutorable WC in an aggro deck.
Other than naturalize, metamorph is the only suggestion here that at least fits with our main strategy, but he loses the duel with the enemy crusader the second hes buffed anyway. U can't craft ur deck to win against 1 card in 1 deck, you just give up too much in other matchups imo.
All this seems to be sub par side/main slots to answer a card they only have 4 of anyway, that only does 4 damage per turn. Wait to get the right cards to go over or around him, or race him, hate is for decks not for single cards. Naturalize likely hates his deck way better than the proposals here.
I played an all Dark Ascension draft with three of my friends this weekend and my RG aggro deck took second place, losing only to my friend's BW token/control deck. I had pulled two predator oozes, and it seemed like every time I was able to get them out, he answered with burden of guilt. For the most part, he was able to control the board fairly well until he could cast Increasing Devotion. Ooze wasn't a big factor in my other games though, since i was able to get Hellrider and Moonveil Dragon out usually. When I was able to make him work with things like Wild Hunger and Increasing Savagery, he was pretty devastating though. He can be a game winner if you have the stuff to back him up.
Not sure this is relevant in a standard constructed discussion of monogreen aggro.
I used to run monogreen wolfrun, he was way more of a problem then since the deck was slower. Now just board in naturalize to make sure they don't buff him. Then, if they swing, race, if they don't, try to go over the top with equiped birds, overrun or get ur tanglewurm. 4 dmg per turn really isn't too fast of a clock for us, the key is to make sure they don't buff him ala swords or angelic...thats wut really makes him a blowout.
I agree with the thought here that there is a lot to answer him, but not that that means he isn't worth including, particularly since you know what colors you can expect those things in (uwb). I've been using a 1 of main and I like him. I don't think id run more, but as a 1 of, hes useful to green sun to in matchups where I know he will be a pain for the opponent.
Also, this is (hopefully) the last time I will be saying this: ELBRUS, THE BINDING BLADE CANNOT BE MYTHIC, MARK ROSEWATER STATED THAT THEY PUSHED HUNTMASTER OF THE FELLS BACK TO THIS SET BECAUSE INNISTRAD (A BIGGER SET) ALREADY HAD GARRUK IN THE MYTHIC DFC SLOT. THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE MYTHIC DFC PER SET BECAUSE OF HOW THEIR PRINTING SHEET AND RARITY DISTRIBUTION WORKS.
I love it when people nerd rage and then are wrong, particularly with caps lock. All he said was that it was due to the flip card distribution in innistrad, not per set. There are several convincing arguments in this thread alone that there will be 2 mythic DFC. Not to mention, that definitely seems to be how it's shaping from the spoiler so far.
Flayer + Unburial Rites on Blighted Colossus = insta win?
I like how it says "it deals damage". You can abuse any deathtouch or infect creature to ping-kill or give poison counters. I don't know if it is usable since you would have a way to bring those creatures back, but it's a cool thought.
Everyone saying that ramp is useless in werewolf tribal because it pushes you to play more than 1 spell has clearly never tried werewolf tribal.
The first 4-5 turns of the game you don't even try to flip your wolves, you just try to get more down and play full moons rise/garruk as they use spot removal on them. The 1 exception is if you get a mayor flipped early. If all you got to flip was a waif...play 2 wolves after you bash.
Only once you have 2-3 solid beater wolves and they have exhausted their removal do you worry about trying to flip them. Wolves needs ramp for this reason, to get to that place faster, and a ramp creature that is a wolf herself and ramps even harder if she happens to flip before your ready is a solid include. Currently my wolf deck has 4 BOP for ramp, this is a clear upgrade I'd say.
I don't think it pushes wolves to competitive, but a solid include. Now let's see that wolf mythic.
I'm running the mono-G dungrove version also, and the crusader is a big problem with uWW being fairly common.
I tried it for a while and tumble magnet just doesn't solve it, particularly since the deck you are running it against usually has grand abolisher potentially nullifying it.
Wurmcoil is the better answer, having a few extra wurmcoils sitting around in the side or main isn't as much of a waste against other decks.
If your playing dude's with swords, you would much rather blow up the swords.
The deck won states piloted by current player of the year leader Owen Turtenwald. It was designed and tested by Level 8 pros Shuhei Nakamura(also a hall of famer) and Martin Juza.
I suppose I stand corrected. I just don't see it. Can anyone here explain the reasoning or what decks it's better against than the RG version?
its not so much that we disagree, as that we seemed to not be on the same page about the facts. i do think Turtenwald's version is the definitive version of mono-green ramp though. its capable of turn 3 Garruk and turn 4 Titan with greater consistency and this is a big edge in the mirror, despite the slagstorms.
i say this is the definitive version because it does the best job of pressing the advantages made from choosing to be mono-green. the version you linked to is at some half state in between the RG version and the Turtenwald version. if i was going to go for mono green i'd go all the way with it, which is what Turtenwald has done.
we don't really disagree though because i also believe this version of the deck is not the best version because of its vulnerability to sweepers (and inability to play its own). i prefer the RG version myself.
Why does the advantage of monogreen necessarily have to be from going faster? I suppose that's the main advantage in the dork version, but in the one I posted, its no faster than regular RG, but it has a much better game against ub and ubw, by having serveral maindeck wincons that are hexproof, some uncounterable.
The trade off is a slightly worse game against RDW, and a much worse game against uWW.
I still say the dork version is the worst of the 3, I can't see any matchups it improves on, though it would go faster. The only good deck I can think of that doesn't sweep or burn is uWW or tokens.
the version you've played is clearly not the most prominent/succesful version and i'd argue that its worse as well. one of the main incentives behind the mono-green version is that it is faster than the RG version, which is a huge edge in the mirror. the mana dorks are what gives it that speed.
for reference, here is the most widely accepted "best build" of the mono-green version.
I'd argue that the deck you posted is bad for exactly the reason you're saying it is, bad against aggro, in addition to not getting much benefit against control or in the mirror because of sweepers destroying your ramp.
Last time I checked running 4 of 2 things meant you still ended up getting them both way less than half the time by turn 4. It seems to be your goal to create an imaginary scenario in which MGA loses this matchup...yes, that is not hard to imagine. Because of crusader I would say this is one of our worst matchups, if not the worst.
The point is to discuss the best way for the deck to deal with crusader. My point is that he is much less deadly when not buffed, and naturalize is a great, versatile way to do that, that doesn't waste slots.
It is possible to play around crusader. Try to naturalize where possible, try to chip away until an overrun/bellowing wins it, try to buy time with pw they will hopefully swing at if they don't have good board position, swing back and race if they don't have good board position, etc. All it takes is a little luck on ur side and no mistakes to win.
Spending slots to improve a 40-60 matchup to a 45-55 matchup is not worth it imo. I'm not sure you have a point other than that we should scoop to T1 plains and while I agree it's a bad matchup, its far from auto-lose.
Why are we necessarily imagining their ideal curve out? If they get that hand we get our ideal hand too and we hit them with sowap llanowar T3, and then naturalize the destiny T4. But beyond that, the honor and the destiny are what killed u, that's my point. And the hate for those is readily available, and very good against the rest of the deck, not to mention being good against other decks, unlike perilous myr and tumble magnet...or running any number of 6 mana untutorable WC in an aggro deck.
Other than naturalize, metamorph is the only suggestion here that at least fits with our main strategy, but he loses the duel with the enemy crusader the second hes buffed anyway. U can't craft ur deck to win against 1 card in 1 deck, you just give up too much in other matchups imo.
Not sure this is relevant in a standard constructed discussion of monogreen aggro.
I love it when people nerd rage and then are wrong, particularly with caps lock. All he said was that it was due to the flip card distribution in innistrad, not per set. There are several convincing arguments in this thread alone that there will be 2 mythic DFC. Not to mention, that definitely seems to be how it's shaping from the spoiler so far.
Blightsteel can never be in your GY.
The first 4-5 turns of the game you don't even try to flip your wolves, you just try to get more down and play full moons rise/garruk as they use spot removal on them. The 1 exception is if you get a mayor flipped early. If all you got to flip was a waif...play 2 wolves after you bash.
Only once you have 2-3 solid beater wolves and they have exhausted their removal do you worry about trying to flip them. Wolves needs ramp for this reason, to get to that place faster, and a ramp creature that is a wolf herself and ramps even harder if she happens to flip before your ready is a solid include. Currently my wolf deck has 4 BOP for ramp, this is a clear upgrade I'd say.
I don't think it pushes wolves to competitive, but a solid include. Now let's see that wolf mythic.
I tried it for a while and tumble magnet just doesn't solve it, particularly since the deck you are running it against usually has grand abolisher potentially nullifying it.
Wurmcoil is the better answer, having a few extra wurmcoils sitting around in the side or main isn't as much of a waste against other decks.
If your playing dude's with swords, you would much rather blow up the swords.
I suppose I stand corrected. I just don't see it. Can anyone here explain the reasoning or what decks it's better against than the RG version?
Why does the advantage of monogreen necessarily have to be from going faster? I suppose that's the main advantage in the dork version, but in the one I posted, its no faster than regular RG, but it has a much better game against ub and ubw, by having serveral maindeck wincons that are hexproof, some uncounterable.
The trade off is a slightly worse game against RDW, and a much worse game against uWW.
I still say the dork version is the worst of the 3, I can't see any matchups it improves on, though it would go faster. The only good deck I can think of that doesn't sweep or burn is uWW or tokens.
I suppose we'll agree to disagree then. This is the more popular list from what I've seen, I've seen this and similar all over results:
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=933132
I'd argue that the deck you posted is bad for exactly the reason you're saying it is, bad against aggro, in addition to not getting much benefit against control or in the mirror because of sweepers destroying your ramp.