I think we want somewhere between 4 to 6 discard spells in the maindeck plus 3x in the sideboard with 2 of them being Collective Brutality and one other (Thoughtseize or Duress). Numbers depend on the metagame of course but I think we want more IoK than Thoughtseizes because our mana curve is now higher which makes Bob more painful and too many copies of Thoughtseize might cost us too much life. I would go with either 4x IoK and 1x Thoughtseize or 3x IoK and 2x Thoughtseize.
This one might not be so sure but I feel that I want 3x Ooze. The card is so good in so many matchups. I'm very rarely sad to draw it and very happy about it a lot of times. It does so much for this deck, acts as gy hate, helps us to stabilize against creature based and other faster decks that attack our life total harder, etc. This could change and I'll go back to 2 but I've been happy with 3 since I'm testing it.
I like 4 manlands (in 25 lands build). I'm not excited about playing 5 for several reasons. First, your opening hands get more awkward more often. It's very awkward situation if you have discard spell and 2 drop in your starting hand and only one land that comes into play untapped. This won't allow you to curve out properly. Other thing is that with more manlands chances that you'll have to play 4th land tapped are higher which is not what you want to be doing with BBE.
The next thing is removal. It's hard to figure out what configuration to play and I guess it will takes quite some time for people to find out this. The one thing I'm certain about, at least this is for me, 10 removal spells (including Kolaghan's Command) is the minimum. I don't want to go below that otherwise our matchups against creature based decks will suffer too much; midrange decks fall into this category as well. With this in minds I think that more is better here-I mean that I rather play more than less if I'm in doubt if I can find place.
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Mar 5, 2018Posted in: MidrangeQuote from Spsiegel1987 »He played extremely well minus his sideboard decisions. He would have been better off bringing in fulminator mages, no?
Yes, I would bring in Fulminator Mages. They aren't amazing in the mirror but certainly better than discard.
According to his list I would sideboard something like this:
4x Fulminator Mage
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Grim Lavamancer
Mar 5, 2018I'm not sure about how should our removal suite look like either. I feel that I want 5 numbers of 1 mana removal spells (4x Bolt and 1x Push, it's possible that we want more Pushes and less Bolts). Decay is generally the worst removal but I think we still want one just because how versatile it is, especially if Bogles continues performing well.Posted in: Midrange
I can see cutting cutting Liliana, the Last Hope in the main deck and keep one copy in the sideboard. This will make one more spot in the main deck for either Push or Dreadbore which seems to be decent choice as well. I wanted to try it already but couldn't find place for it. It should be good with so many planeswalkers running around, basically upgraded Terminate against many decks.
I was playing with the idead of adding third Ooze as well and finally found spot for it. It's been great for me so far and I'm starting to believe that playing less than 3 is actually wrong. It's good against so many decks, from midrange and control to aggro and even some combo decks. It's also worth to note that most pros are playing 3 (including all of them at the latest MTGO Championship).
Mar 5, 2018Posted in: MidrangeQuote from tjd2191 »I don't think you can reasonably make your conclusions off of zero testing.
The idea is that yes, regular jund has better average cascade targets. However, shadow plays significantly more "effective copies" of BBE, and they take advantage of the 3/2 haste body better.
So instead of casting 1 BBE (or 2 in a long game) and having an amazing hit, shadow can reliably cast 3 or 4 because of Traverse and zero mana cantrips and more kcommands than regular jund.
I don't think posting:
"I think regular jund is better because... that's the conclusion I made after I collected nor referenced any data"
is particularly helpful.
I'm being rather aggressive because I and others in this thread have had success with the BBE Shadow deck. Now, you may correct in the end, and regular jund may be better. Which I'm okay with! However, I really want you to have some support for your position.
I agree that I can't make (serious) conclusions about Death's Shadow Jund because I haven't tsted it and I also didn't make any. I said this is just how I feel but I could be wrong. I only know that BBE is great in Jund and at least I'm pretty certain that traditional Jund got more from it than DS Jund which is obvious. BBE may be good in DS Jund but the deck was already good while I can't say this for traditional Jund which was basically dead.
It may be just my personal preference and again I could be wrong but I prefer more proactive way when playing DS because being faster is in my opinion one of its main advantages over other non DS midrange decks. BBE while allow your deck to be faster and actually does so in traditional Jund I don't feel that good about 4 drops in DS but I prefer lower curve instead.
I played Traverse Shadow before BBE unban and never felt that I want BBE but I definitely want her in Jund. Maybe I should give BBE Traverse Shadowa try although I'm not in the mood for it yet because I'm doing good enough with Jund.
That said it looks like Traverse Shadow (to my surprise) is still a very decent deck in the new metagame, with or without BBE.
Btw did you try traditional Jund? Otherwise your statements about where BBE fits better don't hold any more water than mines. I mean I'm fine if you did and find her better in Traverse Shadow although this won't change my minds.
Anyway I didn't want to sound harsh or anyrhing like that in any of my posts. So happy BBE-ing whereever you're going to play it.
Mar 5, 2018I think traditional Jund utilizes BBE better because it has better cascade target in general. I think that because of high number of good cascade targets traditional Jund is the best shell for BBE. I personally feel that you want to be more proactive and faster with DS which makes BBE worse but I'm not sure since I haven't tested BBE in DS yet.Posted in: Midrange
Mar 5, 2018I expected Jund in the top 16 of the last classic but it's still fine as it was. I feel there was a lot of Tron which could be a major factor for this but Jund is still one of the top decks in Modern right now. We are in a good spot, I only wish there was less Tron but you can't have everything.Posted in: Midrange
Mar 4, 2018EE is definitely the best card we can have against Bogles. This card just wrecks Bogles. It's a bit unfortunate that it doesn't go well with BBE but if Bogles become more popular it's worth of a slot because how good it is against this deck.Posted in: Midrange
Other options are Anger of the Gods and Golgari Charm but these are more narrow because they can get out of their range very quickly.
Mar 4, 2018Posted in: MidrangeQuote from Aazadan »Quote from Ayiluss »I also find GDS to be harder matchup for us than Traverse Shadow because of delve creatures and Snapcastr Mage. These are better against us than anything Traverse Shadow can produce except for Lingering Souls but most list are moving away from the white splash. However I still rather face Lingering Souls than delve creatures + Snapcaster Mage. Both are good matchups for Jund though. I played against both of them since unbans and won all matches so far. That said I feel comfortable playing against both of them with Jund which I can't say for the time before BBE.
How many cards are you running to beat Lingering Souls? I'm using 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 1 Liliana, the Last Hope, 1 Chandra, Pyromaster all MB that can trade with Souls at parity. 3 copies means they're going to have more spirits than we have answers though but so far it's been decent.
2x Liliana, the Last Hope (1x md and 1x sb) and 1x Maelstrom Pulse. If they draw more Lingering Souls it can be tough but other than that I also think that I have decent chances of beating them (if I draw the right cards of course).
Mar 3, 2018I also find GDS to be harder matchup for us than Traverse Shadow because of delve creatures and Snapcastr Mage. These are better against us than anything Traverse Shadow can produce except for Lingering Souls but most list are moving away from the white splash. However I still rather face Lingering Souls than delve creatures + Snapcaster Mage. Both are good matchups for Jund though. I played against both of them since unbans and won all matches so far. That said I feel comfortable playing against both of them with Jund which I can't say for the time before BBE.Posted in: Midrange
Mar 3, 2018I agree with FlyngDelver here. We used to be underdog against Death's Shadow before we had BBE but with BBE I think we are favored. It's a attrition based matchup where you want to 2 for 1 your opponent and BBE does exactly that.Posted in: Midrange
Pulse vs Push debate against DS depends on the version imo. Against GDS I value Pulse higher because delve creatures are our biggest threats so we want as much removal as we can get that kill these. Against Traverse Push is probably better but even then Pulse can be better if you can 2 for 1 them especially if they bring in Lingering Souls.
Mar 3, 2018Posted in: MidrangeQuote from FlyingDelver »Quote from Spsiegel1987 »Reid duke also won only 1 game with his list while pardee performed as the top seed player.
Reid is still testing so people should be careful taking everything at face value
You guys are forgetting about good deck building with adding another pulse and playing dreadbore. Don't forget your fundamentals. I'm seeing this board and the Facebook jund lose sight of this
Jace is underperforming big time. Gurgmags and tasigur may be perfectly fine after people are some testing all this newness.
Pardee is also playing Dreadbore for the record. And no Terminates.
True but he's also playing 24 lands. He's playing very well though. I was really impressed watching him at game against 5 color Zoo.
As for Dreadbore I see this an option. Probably it's even better than 2nd Pulse because it costs 1 less which is not something to ignore and being able to hit planeswalkers besides creature is good too.
Mar 3, 2018Perhaps our mana curve would get too high with 2nd Pulse. I haven't tested it yet (just one match) so I'm not sure about it but I agree that we don't want too many 3 drops. Maybe we could add Dreadbore? That way our curve doesn't get higher and we have one more removal (that kills creatures too) to planeswalkers although these are less of an problem with BBE.Posted in: Midrange
What are your guys thoughts about third Ooze? What would you cut for it if you decided to go for it?
Mar 3, 2018Posted in: MidrangeQuote from FlyingDelver »I had a pretty awful time yesterday, went 2-2-1 winning against Affinity and GW Value Town, loosing to Ponza and RW Prison and drawing against Elves (yes, you read correctly).
Was flooded a little I have to say. I did play to the best of my abilities, but that draw against Elves did tilt me because my opponent did take forever for everyhting, stealing precious time. I would have won that easily. But what can I say, its not what I should focus on here.
The 2 losses against Ponza and RW Prison were close. Against RW Prison Leyline did get me games 2 and 3, and I was stranded with lots of discard and bolts in hand. I really wish they change the PW redirection rule so that I can bolt PWs through Leylines. But whatever.
I was not satisified with the deck, I did have too few answers for higher CMC permanents and noncreature permanents. I think I will play 2 Pulses going onward.
Also thinking Dradbore might be interesting.
I have the same thoughts about noncreature permanents. 2 removal for these (1 Deday and 1 Pulse) seems too few. I'll cut 1 Terminate for 2nd Pulse which seems to be that most players are doing. Dreadbore is also an interesting choice but I think I'll go with the 2nd Pulse for now. I like that Pulse is catch-all answer which makes at at least as good or better than Terminate against most of stuff we want to kill. Terminate is only better against haste creatures and manlands but we have Fulminator Mage for the latter. Being a card with wider use makes Pulse better cascade target than Terminate too.
I was thinking about adding third Ooze as well but don't know what to cut. It's a very useful card, good against many decks from aggro to midrange and control while also being good against Storm. Most lists run 3x Ooze, including all Jund decks from MTGO Championship.
Mar 3, 2018Posted in: MidrangeQuote from hellkite12 »Guys remember that the mocs are a inbreed Tournament with some havy Metagaming, it was to be expected that 80% play jace or jund. So the Decks are all tuned for that.
That's true. These kind of tournaments don't reflect general metagame but they are, as you said, more tuned decks and lists to that specific tournaments. It's still nice to see bunch of Jund decks there.
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