It should be noted that I rarely reply to anything unless I feel I have the correct response... not gloating, I just feel confident that I know this one...
First of all, I think we all agree Arrest was probably correct.
As far as how many Scudders is too many? I've had three in draft on a couple of occasions now and they just plain and simply win games. I would play with 10 if they kept coming to me.
As far as the loss of life goes, if you're on to pack three, and open a Scudder, just for kicks, let's say it's your fourth already... you can take it, have a monstrous team, and take cards late that have far more value in your deck than in any other. At this point you can play with a pair of Golden Urns because the sacrifice in power level you make to play with Golden Urn is negated by the beef in your flying dudes. Lifesmith gets half decent if youre in Green, Trigon of Mending becomes quite playable. Sylvok Lifestaff, while aready fine, is that much more valuable to you.
For that matter, Scudders are just as good on defense as they are on attack, so the life loss in order to cast two Scudders is usually not as much as the damage that might have been had you played a 2/2 instead.
Finally, let's not forget that against a dedicated poison deck, the life loss tends to be insignificant.
you're right, there is a power difference between Phoenix and Scrapmelter. In a vacuum the Phoenix is better.
Look guys, this is pick 1, pack 1, and you have a Flametongue Kavu in the pack that you will 99% certainly play even if red is cut from both sides. The power gap between Phoenix and Scrapmelter exists, but is not significant enough to sacrifice the consistency of your draft. The key to your argument is the phrase "when the latter is castable"
Yes, the Phoenix has the ability to create card advantage on its own, but that's assuming no one on your right is in red, because having passed the 'melter, the player on your left will likely have it as his secondary.
@Semantics:
You are also correct in that sending signals on the first pick is not of total relevancy, but come on, there's a Barrage Ogre in this pack too! I think you're setting two players out of the next 4 or 5 to take a red card. You can take the Scrapmelter, and then plan on playing two other colors, knowing that you've set someone on your left into red. If the players on your right proceed to ship you red cards, you take them regardless. Does this mean that in the end the Phoenix would have been the better pick? yes.
The point is, the Scrapmelter is correct if you want to play it safe and get a card that is always going to play in the final 40 cards, and is always going to be a good card.
The Phoenix could be considered correct if you are hoping that no one to your right is in red, and only if you honestly feel that the Phoenix is a much better card than Scrapmelter.
That said, lets go a bit deeper here...
What would you give the Phoenix in terms of a rating from 1-10, 1 being utter trash, 5 being an average card... better than filler, but not one of the decks studs, 10 being the uber-bomb, like Hoard-Smelter or Contagion Engine.
Where do you put Phoenix? Good stats, better potential, probably a solid 8 or 9 right?
What do you give Scrapmelter?... a virtual Flametongue Kavu... GUARANTEED card advantage on a hill giant, probably a 7 or 8, right?
So by taking the Phoenix, what you are doing is banking that the two players on your right will ship you red cards (because you know you won't be getting them from the left) or you will have a first pick that will not make your final 40 cards. All for a card who's power level is only a little higher than the card you could have taken and surely played in the deck.
Now, before you knock on the 'rating' I gave those cards, remember, it's player preference. In my experiences I would actually rate the two cards about the same in terms of power level, but since you clearly feel the phoenix is better I gave it a better rating. The point to be taken here is not how I feel about each card. The point is that you are risking a Scrapmelter that will play for the chance to play a Phoenix. I simply don't feel that the differnce in power level justifies the risk.
also @Semantics:
There is no contradiction between my second and sixth points. Assuming that the player to your left takes the Phoenix, he's got a Scrapmelter taken on his right and a Barrage Ogre potentially to his left. His red card is RRR. Perhaps it's not a wasted pick, but I think we can both agree that things reeeeally have to work out for him to end up playing that Phoenix. Point two is simply that you don't need to dedicate heavily to red in order to play the Scrapmelter, where the guy that takes the Phoenix will have to dedicate a bit to the color.
Ok I rarely reply to anything on here, but I had to log in and reply here...
Take the [expletive]ing Scrapmelter.
Stop listening to these mow-rons telling you to windmill slam the 'bomb' Phoenix and listen to some logic as to why the Scrapmelter is simly the better pick:
1. You are taking a card that is a two-for-1 just about always.
2. RRR really matters, because you know by passing the scrapmelter you will be cut from red in pack two, so you're basically crossing your fingers and hoping that the people to your right will ship you red cards. While this might happen, that still doesn't mean that the Phoenix is some unbelievable bomb that wins every game it hits the table.
3. You commit to a two color deck maximum by taking Phoenix.
4. In retrospect, with the Scrapmelter, you can still be in U/W skies, splash one red card; or in G/B controllish infect that has a spellbomb or two to search up your one mountain.
5. Picking the scrapmelter means that you are getting an amazing card that WILL make your deck, be it by making red a primariy, secondary, or splash color, the scrapmelter WILL play. They Phoenix on the other hand, might not.
6. You make the guy on your left waste his second pick!
7. The Phoenix is not Sunblast Angel or Geth, it dies to metal-crafted Galvanic blast, a blocker and a blast, can be shrunk with counters, tapped with Tumble Magnet, etc. Other bombs are good because that stuff doesn't matter, they will still win! The Scrapmelter also dies to a bunch of stuff, but it has already given you value upon entering the battlefield.
8. Scrapmelter gives other cards later on in the draft better value, such as Glimmerpoint Stag, Disperse, or Prototype Portal, whereas Phoenix doesn't make anything better... in fact it restricts you to playing heavy red, and wants you, but does not require you to play metalcraft to some extent.
Point is, don't fall in love with the gold symbol, or the 4/4 flying part of the Phoenix... he gets chumped by a Plague Stinger and is a 3/3, then just isnt much of a threat.. there are SOOOOO many ways for your opponent to play against it and solve the puzzled presented by it. Scrapmelter on the other hand will solve a problem presented to you, and leave a 3/3 body on the field giving you card advantage.
Don't be silly my friend, its the Scrapmelter...PERIOD. Troll all you want guys, but if you disagree, I'm afraid you are just wrong.
Seems to me that if you're casting Wave you don't want things like Mindslaver, you just want to end the game. A typical Wave hits for 6 or so, and hitting Lotus Cobra, Khalni Heart Expedition, and fetchlands gives you the mana to Wave yet again. Ob Nix is a win in this situation, as is Valakut. I'd keep the deck focused around those cards as they aren't terrible without a Wave. Any other cards that just 'win now' off the wave?
I like the Mnemonic Wall idea, as a decent wave with Cobra and the wall could provide enough mana to Wave again for about the same amount, perhaps more, but eventually a Wave would have to find a kill. That is: if you cast Genesis Wave for more than 5 or 6, you shouldn't have to pass the turn.
It could feasibly be used as a one-of in a black/x control deck today. You couldn't run two of them, as you simply lose anytime you see both, but as a one-of you can game plan around it a bit if it's in your opening hand, or a rip off the top late in an attrition game it'd be fine as well. The current standard is so focused on board state that cards not changing that state aren't very good unfortunately.
Yes, at one point Haunting Echoes was indeed a chase rare. It was played primarily in G/B Rock decks and in Psychatog decks. This was when Odyssey was in Standard just to give you an idea of when it was good before.
While these decks were very different in their approach to the win, Haunting Echoes served the same purpose for each. Both Rock and Tog were control decks that wanted to win over time through a war of attrition. Games didn't necessarily come down to topdecks, but the nature of the decks running Haunting Echoes was to have a question / answer interaction with the opponent. That is, you play a 2/2, I play Wall of Blossoms; you play a 4/4, I play Bone Shredder. Eventually, in the case of The Rock, you would overcome the opponent through small 2 for 1s, such as Bone Shredder, Ravenous Baloth, and Genesis. The real nail in the coffin, which gave the opponent no chance to come back was the Haunting Echoes that turns their deck from a 2:1 spell to land ratio to about a 2:1 land to spell ratio.
Next, you have to understand that while there were fast decks back then, the answers were efficient to them... all the while, creatures generally weren't all that good. Consider this: Arrogant Wurm was very good at 2G for a 4/4, but in order to get it, you had to have Wild Mongrel down on turn two and it had to survive. This did not however, deter people from playing with these cards as the interaction (getting a 4/4 on turn 3) was just too good to ignore. Fastforward ten years, and look at Knight of the Reliquary. How many times does he come down on turn 3 as a 5/5 that has potential to grow even larger! We have a 4/5 and a 5/4 at the 3 mana spot as well.
Finally, magic today is a game of board presence. that means that in order to be in the game, you probably need some permenents other than lands on the table, and it doesn't hurt to have a planeswalker down too. Ten years ago, Psychatog played virtually one board permanent other than land... its namesake that is, although some versions did run Nightscape Familiar. Eventual Mind's Desire combo decks needed very little on the board to 'go off' and win.
What the above paragraph is trying to explain is that back then, average decks may have had a 4:1 ratio of instants and sorceries versus creatures, artifacts, and other nonland board permanents. Hitting the graveyard on turn 5 with H.E. meant that you would get 3 or 4 cards, thus taking generally 8-16 spells out of their deck, neutering said deck far more than we are capable of today in the land of "play creatures and attack" that magic has become... or as I like to call it, Pokemon!
Let's not forget here, this card is in a set that seems to be promoting scrying a little bit. Combine this card with Jace 2.0, Crystal Ball, Ponder, the new scry2 then draw a card thingy, etc. It's a great card that does not need all that much work to be made into a deck's engine... its not like you're running Jace in order to make Dark Tutelage playable, you're running Jace because he's Jace. Same with Ponder/Crystal Ball, etc.
I broke through that ceiling when a very solid player began explaining how to get better. The phrase that sticks out is that "they give you 20 life points but only one of them matter." ...needless to say, amongst the cliche decks that new players build, I was the gain life guy..
Not to go off topic, but could we put some more focus on the 'combo' in this deck? U/G Polymorph wants to adopt Summoning Trap, but it just doesnt run enough dudes... If we're running piper, then polymorph is out, but blue does offer a bit anyhow...
See Beyond
Ponder
Halimar Depths
I think these cards really provide some card manipulation that the deck seriously lacks...especially See Beyond...
Also, I want to cast piper, but I want him to stay in for a turn...this is where things get janky in my mind...
4 Battle Rampart... yes, 4 Battle Rampart
We're still U/G, but Misty, Lotus Cobra, and Tarn all make it so easy to play the rampart. Red also give us the option of Running BBE, which will usually cacade into more card manipulation.
The deck still has the same explosive plays, but now they're more consistent...
T1: Ponder, or nothing for that matter
T2: See Beyond perhaps
T3: Cobra, Fetch, Rampart....and they kill the cobra
T4: BBE, or simple card manipulation
T5: Piper, give haste, put Emrakkul down
^I realize that this is is turn five, and doesn't seem that explosive, but I didn't want to do the whole 'God hand' scenario that people tend to use as an example of a deck's power.
I suppose a rough skeleton of a U/G/r version would look like:
I'm thinking that U/R is the way to go now. Explosive Revelation as an alternate win con that isnt vulnerable to removal? sign me up!
I still like See Beyond, and I'm running 3 Ponder as well. Seems redundant, but the card manipulation adds unbelievable consistency, not to mention that Ponder sets up the deck for Revelation.
Currently testing:
Card Manipulation:
3 Ponder
4 See Beyond
3 Treasure Hunt
Utility:
3 Negate
2 Double Negative
4 Bolt
3 Spawning Breath - kills a surprising amount of good stuff too...
3 Burst Lightning
3 Jace 2.0 - manipulation and draw!
Win:
3 Polymorph
2 Explosive Revelation - only two with our card draw and the fact that it isn't necessarily a win when cast.
3 Emrakul - three because you don't mind seeing it for revelation.
Lands!
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Halimar Depths
7 Island
7 Mountain
2 Khalni Heart - only two because we can find it better than most versions.
wait, the skill comes out in Jund vs. Jund? I thought the D20 came out... don't kid yourself. The mirror comes down to who goes first, and therefor ruinblasters first.
Realms Uncharted + Grim Discovery = get an Eldrazi land
Grim Discovery by itself = bring back the tectonic edged eldrazi land
Knight of the Reliquary = go find Eldrazi Lands
BoP + Noble Hierarch + Lotus Cobra = mana excel + fixing
So that's the base Ive been thinking of. Some of the cards that come to mind from there:
Wall of Omens - this deck seems like it needs some defense.
Elvish Visionary - same as wall, plays out like a cycler
Ranger of Eos - probably not the deck for this guy, but he does go get some mana ramp in birds and hierarch
Summoning Trap - end of turn threat / cheat big guy into play...obviously.
Emrakul / Kozilek - not sure what configuration, but clearly the kill spells
Rampant growth - find that black mana
Trace of Abundance - same thing, but protects a land.
Basically, I want to come up with a turbo Eldrazi deck that relies on finding Eldrazi lands, rather than one that wants to ramp with tokens....
Good discussion is encouraged, lets build!
You're right on with some of the ideas here, but G/B right now has the ability to play some dumbness... that feels oh so much like good old rock...
Deck's main duders:
4 Vengevine
3 Bloodghast
ya, you see where this is going.... guys that never go away....
BB and GG is difficult, so lets throw in:
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Borderland Ranger
4 Lotus Cobra - the final build has several 4 drops, so I want the cobra...
Mana fixing above lets us run:
4 BBE
21 creatures, and they keep on coming... lets put in our utility...
creature control:
3 Disfigure - weaker card but it works well with-
3 Fleshbag marauder
3 Consuming Vapors - sooooo good in this aggro deck that wants to just keep coming!
General Utility:
4 Pulse - utility kill that hits other stuff, obviously good here.
2 Grim Discovery - brings back fleshbag, ranger, and BBE, seems fine.
3 Terramorphic Expanse - not much happening on turn 1 anyway....
4 V. Catacombs
2 Savage Lands - only two cause I only have 1 red card, and while there's not much happening on turn 1, we do want to be able to cast Birds if we have them, so we can't run too many CIPT lands...(expanse)
9 Forest
6 Swamp
I really like the idea of running Eldrazi black with a green package...
We get to run Maelstrom Pulse
We get to run Realms Uncharted / Eldrazi Lands / Grim Discovery
As long as were running Grim discovery, we need dudes....
-Elvish Visionary / Fleshbag / Gatekeeper
I want to stick with monoblack here, so here's how I'd work with it:
Removal:
4 Disfigure - Not the greatest, but it's one mana...period.
4 Gatekeeper - Fantastic card, obvious inclusion.
3 Consuming Vapors - I think I like it more in an aggro build, but its fine here.
2 Consume the Meek - Great card, but we have plenty of removal.
Card Draw:
3 Grim Discovery - great utility to keep the lands coming, and to get back Gatekeepers / Hexmages
4 Sign in Blood - obvious inclusion
Utility:
2 Mind Sludge - cast it and win in several cases, no reason not to play it.
4 Vampire Hexmage - kills planeswalkers.
4 Vampire Nighthawk - attacks, gains life, a lethal wall, fits well.
Kill:
2 Sorin Markov
3 Malakir Bloodwitch - low vamp count, but this guy is still nutty!
lands:
X Swamp
3 Tectonic Edge - for man lands.
I would be tempted to build the deck in a fashion that says "if you are aggro, I cannot lose," while having the SB say "if you are control, I cannot lose."
First of all, I think we all agree Arrest was probably correct.
As far as how many Scudders is too many? I've had three in draft on a couple of occasions now and they just plain and simply win games. I would play with 10 if they kept coming to me.
As far as the loss of life goes, if you're on to pack three, and open a Scudder, just for kicks, let's say it's your fourth already... you can take it, have a monstrous team, and take cards late that have far more value in your deck than in any other. At this point you can play with a pair of Golden Urns because the sacrifice in power level you make to play with Golden Urn is negated by the beef in your flying dudes. Lifesmith gets half decent if youre in Green, Trigon of Mending becomes quite playable. Sylvok Lifestaff, while aready fine, is that much more valuable to you.
For that matter, Scudders are just as good on defense as they are on attack, so the life loss in order to cast two Scudders is usually not as much as the damage that might have been had you played a 2/2 instead.
Finally, let's not forget that against a dedicated poison deck, the life loss tends to be insignificant.
you're right, there is a power difference between Phoenix and Scrapmelter. In a vacuum the Phoenix is better.
Look guys, this is pick 1, pack 1, and you have a Flametongue Kavu in the pack that you will 99% certainly play even if red is cut from both sides. The power gap between Phoenix and Scrapmelter exists, but is not significant enough to sacrifice the consistency of your draft. The key to your argument is the phrase "when the latter is castable"
Yes, the Phoenix has the ability to create card advantage on its own, but that's assuming no one on your right is in red, because having passed the 'melter, the player on your left will likely have it as his secondary.
@Semantics:
You are also correct in that sending signals on the first pick is not of total relevancy, but come on, there's a Barrage Ogre in this pack too! I think you're setting two players out of the next 4 or 5 to take a red card. You can take the Scrapmelter, and then plan on playing two other colors, knowing that you've set someone on your left into red. If the players on your right proceed to ship you red cards, you take them regardless. Does this mean that in the end the Phoenix would have been the better pick? yes.
The point is, the Scrapmelter is correct if you want to play it safe and get a card that is always going to play in the final 40 cards, and is always going to be a good card.
The Phoenix could be considered correct if you are hoping that no one to your right is in red, and only if you honestly feel that the Phoenix is a much better card than Scrapmelter.
That said, lets go a bit deeper here...
What would you give the Phoenix in terms of a rating from 1-10, 1 being utter trash, 5 being an average card... better than filler, but not one of the decks studs, 10 being the uber-bomb, like Hoard-Smelter or Contagion Engine.
Where do you put Phoenix? Good stats, better potential, probably a solid 8 or 9 right?
What do you give Scrapmelter?... a virtual Flametongue Kavu... GUARANTEED card advantage on a hill giant, probably a 7 or 8, right?
So by taking the Phoenix, what you are doing is banking that the two players on your right will ship you red cards (because you know you won't be getting them from the left) or you will have a first pick that will not make your final 40 cards. All for a card who's power level is only a little higher than the card you could have taken and surely played in the deck.
Now, before you knock on the 'rating' I gave those cards, remember, it's player preference. In my experiences I would actually rate the two cards about the same in terms of power level, but since you clearly feel the phoenix is better I gave it a better rating. The point to be taken here is not how I feel about each card. The point is that you are risking a Scrapmelter that will play for the chance to play a Phoenix. I simply don't feel that the differnce in power level justifies the risk.
also @Semantics:
There is no contradiction between my second and sixth points. Assuming that the player to your left takes the Phoenix, he's got a Scrapmelter taken on his right and a Barrage Ogre potentially to his left. His red card is RRR. Perhaps it's not a wasted pick, but I think we can both agree that things reeeeally have to work out for him to end up playing that Phoenix. Point two is simply that you don't need to dedicate heavily to red in order to play the Scrapmelter, where the guy that takes the Phoenix will have to dedicate a bit to the color.
Take the [expletive]ing Scrapmelter.
Stop listening to these mow-rons telling you to windmill slam the 'bomb' Phoenix and listen to some logic as to why the Scrapmelter is simly the better pick:
1. You are taking a card that is a two-for-1 just about always.
2. RRR really matters, because you know by passing the scrapmelter you will be cut from red in pack two, so you're basically crossing your fingers and hoping that the people to your right will ship you red cards. While this might happen, that still doesn't mean that the Phoenix is some unbelievable bomb that wins every game it hits the table.
3. You commit to a two color deck maximum by taking Phoenix.
4. In retrospect, with the Scrapmelter, you can still be in U/W skies, splash one red card; or in G/B controllish infect that has a spellbomb or two to search up your one mountain.
5. Picking the scrapmelter means that you are getting an amazing card that WILL make your deck, be it by making red a primariy, secondary, or splash color, the scrapmelter WILL play. They Phoenix on the other hand, might not.
6. You make the guy on your left waste his second pick!
7. The Phoenix is not Sunblast Angel or Geth, it dies to metal-crafted Galvanic blast, a blocker and a blast, can be shrunk with counters, tapped with Tumble Magnet, etc. Other bombs are good because that stuff doesn't matter, they will still win! The Scrapmelter also dies to a bunch of stuff, but it has already given you value upon entering the battlefield.
8. Scrapmelter gives other cards later on in the draft better value, such as Glimmerpoint Stag, Disperse, or Prototype Portal, whereas Phoenix doesn't make anything better... in fact it restricts you to playing heavy red, and wants you, but does not require you to play metalcraft to some extent.
Point is, don't fall in love with the gold symbol, or the 4/4 flying part of the Phoenix... he gets chumped by a Plague Stinger and is a 3/3, then just isnt much of a threat.. there are SOOOOO many ways for your opponent to play against it and solve the puzzled presented by it. Scrapmelter on the other hand will solve a problem presented to you, and leave a 3/3 body on the field giving you card advantage.
Don't be silly my friend, its the Scrapmelter...PERIOD. Troll all you want guys, but if you disagree, I'm afraid you are just wrong.
I like the Mnemonic Wall idea, as a decent wave with Cobra and the wall could provide enough mana to Wave again for about the same amount, perhaps more, but eventually a Wave would have to find a kill. That is: if you cast Genesis Wave for more than 5 or 6, you shouldn't have to pass the turn.
While these decks were very different in their approach to the win, Haunting Echoes served the same purpose for each. Both Rock and Tog were control decks that wanted to win over time through a war of attrition. Games didn't necessarily come down to topdecks, but the nature of the decks running Haunting Echoes was to have a question / answer interaction with the opponent. That is, you play a 2/2, I play Wall of Blossoms; you play a 4/4, I play Bone Shredder. Eventually, in the case of The Rock, you would overcome the opponent through small 2 for 1s, such as Bone Shredder, Ravenous Baloth, and Genesis. The real nail in the coffin, which gave the opponent no chance to come back was the Haunting Echoes that turns their deck from a 2:1 spell to land ratio to about a 2:1 land to spell ratio.
Next, you have to understand that while there were fast decks back then, the answers were efficient to them... all the while, creatures generally weren't all that good. Consider this: Arrogant Wurm was very good at 2G for a 4/4, but in order to get it, you had to have Wild Mongrel down on turn two and it had to survive. This did not however, deter people from playing with these cards as the interaction (getting a 4/4 on turn 3) was just too good to ignore. Fastforward ten years, and look at Knight of the Reliquary. How many times does he come down on turn 3 as a 5/5 that has potential to grow even larger! We have a 4/5 and a 5/4 at the 3 mana spot as well.
Finally, magic today is a game of board presence. that means that in order to be in the game, you probably need some permenents other than lands on the table, and it doesn't hurt to have a planeswalker down too. Ten years ago, Psychatog played virtually one board permanent other than land... its namesake that is, although some versions did run Nightscape Familiar. Eventual Mind's Desire combo decks needed very little on the board to 'go off' and win.
What the above paragraph is trying to explain is that back then, average decks may have had a 4:1 ratio of instants and sorceries versus creatures, artifacts, and other nonland board permanents. Hitting the graveyard on turn 5 with H.E. meant that you would get 3 or 4 cards, thus taking generally 8-16 spells out of their deck, neutering said deck far more than we are capable of today in the land of "play creatures and attack" that magic has become... or as I like to call it, Pokemon!
See Beyond
Ponder
Halimar Depths
I think these cards really provide some card manipulation that the deck seriously lacks...especially See Beyond...
Also, I want to cast piper, but I want him to stay in for a turn...this is where things get janky in my mind...
4 Battle Rampart... yes, 4 Battle Rampart
We're still U/G, but Misty, Lotus Cobra, and Tarn all make it so easy to play the rampart. Red also give us the option of Running BBE, which will usually cacade into more card manipulation.
The deck still has the same explosive plays, but now they're more consistent...
T1: Ponder, or nothing for that matter
T2: See Beyond perhaps
T3: Cobra, Fetch, Rampart....and they kill the cobra
T4: BBE, or simple card manipulation
T5: Piper, give haste, put Emrakkul down
^I realize that this is is turn five, and doesn't seem that explosive, but I didn't want to do the whole 'God hand' scenario that people tend to use as an example of a deck's power.
I suppose a rough skeleton of a U/G/r version would look like:
Dudes:
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Battle Rampart
4 BBE
3 Emrakul
2 Iona
Card Manipulation:
4 See Beyond
3 Ponder
4 Rampant Growth
Win:
3 Summoning Trap
4 Elvish Piper
1 Trap Tutor
Lands:
4 Scalding tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Halimar Depths
4 Rootbound Crag
2 Island
3 Mountain
5 Forest
Thoughts? comments? ...or is this basically blasphemy here...if so that's fine too.
I still like See Beyond, and I'm running 3 Ponder as well. Seems redundant, but the card manipulation adds unbelievable consistency, not to mention that Ponder sets up the deck for Revelation.
Currently testing:
Card Manipulation:
3 Ponder
4 See Beyond
3 Treasure Hunt
Utility:
3 Negate
2 Double Negative
4 Bolt
3 Spawning Breath - kills a surprising amount of good stuff too...
3 Burst Lightning
3 Jace 2.0 - manipulation and draw!
Win:
3 Polymorph
2 Explosive Revelation - only two with our card draw and the fact that it isn't necessarily a win when cast.
3 Emrakul - three because you don't mind seeing it for revelation.
Lands!
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Halimar Depths
7 Island
7 Mountain
2 Khalni Heart - only two because we can find it better than most versions.
Thoughts? comments?
Grim Discovery by itself = bring back the tectonic edged eldrazi land
Knight of the Reliquary = go find Eldrazi Lands
BoP + Noble Hierarch + Lotus Cobra = mana excel + fixing
So that's the base Ive been thinking of. Some of the cards that come to mind from there:
Wall of Omens - this deck seems like it needs some defense.
Elvish Visionary - same as wall, plays out like a cycler
Ranger of Eos - probably not the deck for this guy, but he does go get some mana ramp in birds and hierarch
Summoning Trap - end of turn threat / cheat big guy into play...obviously.
Emrakul / Kozilek - not sure what configuration, but clearly the kill spells
Rampant growth - find that black mana
Trace of Abundance - same thing, but protects a land.
Basically, I want to come up with a turbo Eldrazi deck that relies on finding Eldrazi lands, rather than one that wants to ramp with tokens....
Good discussion is encouraged, lets build!
Deck's main duders:
4 Vengevine
3 Bloodghast
ya, you see where this is going.... guys that never go away....
BB and GG is difficult, so lets throw in:
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Borderland Ranger
4 Lotus Cobra - the final build has several 4 drops, so I want the cobra...
Mana fixing above lets us run:
4 BBE
21 creatures, and they keep on coming... lets put in our utility...
creature control:
3 Disfigure - weaker card but it works well with-
3 Fleshbag marauder
3 Consuming Vapors - sooooo good in this aggro deck that wants to just keep coming!
General Utility:
4 Pulse - utility kill that hits other stuff, obviously good here.
2 Grim Discovery - brings back fleshbag, ranger, and BBE, seems fine.
3 Terramorphic Expanse - not much happening on turn 1 anyway....
4 V. Catacombs
2 Savage Lands - only two cause I only have 1 red card, and while there's not much happening on turn 1, we do want to be able to cast Birds if we have them, so we can't run too many CIPT lands...(expanse)
9 Forest
6 Swamp
ideas? comments?
We get to run Maelstrom Pulse
We get to run Realms Uncharted / Eldrazi Lands / Grim Discovery
As long as were running Grim discovery, we need dudes....
-Elvish Visionary / Fleshbag / Gatekeeper
I want to stick with monoblack here, so here's how I'd work with it:
Removal:
4 Disfigure - Not the greatest, but it's one mana...period.
4 Gatekeeper - Fantastic card, obvious inclusion.
3 Consuming Vapors - I think I like it more in an aggro build, but its fine here.
2 Consume the Meek - Great card, but we have plenty of removal.
Card Draw:
3 Grim Discovery - great utility to keep the lands coming, and to get back Gatekeepers / Hexmages
4 Sign in Blood - obvious inclusion
Utility:
2 Mind Sludge - cast it and win in several cases, no reason not to play it.
4 Vampire Hexmage - kills planeswalkers.
4 Vampire Nighthawk - attacks, gains life, a lethal wall, fits well.
Kill:
2 Sorin Markov
3 Malakir Bloodwitch - low vamp count, but this guy is still nutty!
lands:
X Swamp
3 Tectonic Edge - for man lands.
I would be tempted to build the deck in a fashion that says "if you are aggro, I cannot lose," while having the SB say "if you are control, I cannot lose."
fun fun, ideas?