no prob. If you click in the blue box under this reply "Modern (click to show)", my modern decks will be shown, and you can find a link to tappedout "Dark Goblins" where you will find the list.
In any case, here is a not very tidy display of the latter:
diateone - no Chieftains in here?
Curious about your SB plan - if you have a sec to give a breakdown of your boarding strategies, I'd appreciate it as it's a big departure from my basically mono-red board.
I'm new around here but I've been running a lot of leagues with this deck (very slightly tweaked version of UnvoicedTugboat's list above) and been doing OK. One 5-0, a couple 4-1's and a LOT of 3-2's.
Main thoughts:
- The mana absolutely sucks. I cannot count the number of games I've lost to not having a 2nd or 3rd land and not hitting it until way too late. I should have done this a couple leagues ago, but I'm going up to 18 or 19 lands, and probably ditching the War Zones. Unfortunately there aren't any cycling lands that ETB untapped...
- Piledriver seems to do pretty much stone nothing in this deck. If I replace it with a 2 drop, I think the 2 drop has pretty much got to have haste. It's just way too slow and fragile. I'm OK trading a 1 mana creature for a Push, especially if it got in for 2 or 3 damage, but Piledriver usually just hits the board (using up a whole turn's worth of mana because of the issue above) and then dies.
- First strike from Loyalist has been great, allowing me to swing through a Wurmcoil with a wide board and kill them before the lifelink kicks in.
- Playing against any kind of 1-for-1-plus-value deck (Grixis, Jeskai, etc.) where they get Snapcaster / Electrolyze / Kcommand is absolutely brutal and usually impossible to recover from. With the increase of the cheap graveyard decks (RB Cycling, As Foretold Living End) I am seriously considering Leylines to shut off this incremental advantage as well as to shut down graveyard decks.
- In that vein, I'm very interested in either Genesis Chamber or Shapers' Sanctuary as mentioned above. Anyone have any thoughts on those? Green splash also gets Tin Street Hooligan / Ancient Grudge / maybe Atarka's Command?
Overall I love the deck but when it stumbles it stumbles HARD. Hoping increasing the land count will help with this. Chime in if you've got other thoughts on the above.
I swear I play that deck at least once a league on MTGO and I have yet to win a match. Just lost to it twice in a row and I feel like it's only getting more popular... I've never seen it in paper but I would like to not completely fold to it online since I see it a lot.
Gifts pile advice / SB tech / any ideas? Or is this one I should just auto-scoop to?
Yeah, the Regionals lists are up now on the SCG site - I don't see an Ad Naus list in the Top 8 in Orlando, although there is one in Lenexa (did not know that was a city) and one in Duluth.
Both very standard lists.
Still on the fence about bringing this deck to Vancouver - I've been playing a lot of Grixis and Junk online and boy is it rough. Considering an audible to Elves - it put up much better results than Ad Naus this weekend across the various SCG Regionals Top 8's.
Anyone else feeling like the deck isn't as well positioned as it could be? Anyone taking something else to an upcoming GP or other large event?
What's everyone's plan against Grixis? The matchup (esp. postboard) seems super brutal, honestly - Fulminators, KCommand to get them back and blow up our artifacts, countermagic, Surgical Extraction, the list goes on... Dromoka seems OK, but even Leyline doesn't do much...
Well gents, it's been fun Dredging with you. I guess we'll be seeing each other when they unban Dread Return and Troll.
ps i thought this was funny: "The last turn-three deck that remained was Dredge. While Golgari Grave-Troll was banned, we found that Dredge was still very capable of turn-three kills."
I'd love to see the list they used to make that assessment, seeing as how getting this deck down under Turn 4 at the BEST has been the focus of this thread.
that's about it. I think it needs to drop to around 4 to be competitive.
I disagree with this, although it would of course be nice. The strength of this deck is that its game plan (all of this is Game 1) is something that a lot of decks can't really interact with (a lot of your important plays can't be countered: dredging, Bridge triggers for example) and eventually (provided you don't play like a donk) most games will reach a point where there is literally no way you can lose. Turn 4 feels arbitrary: Hypergenesis goes off much sooner and there's not much you can do about that anyway, and you can grind out games that go longer.
TLDR: Assigning a "turn" to this deck is arbitrary as the Modern dredge deck is much less about blazing speed and more about inevitability.
Do Street Wraith or Shambling Shell have any sort of home in Modern Dredge? Dredge 3 isn't great, but it's not the worst.
Street Wraith: it's possible, but i think there are better options. IMO, lack of card-draw isn't the problem in this format but rather the lack of discard and to some extent sac outlets.
Shambling Shell: It would basically only be in there to dredge 3, so why wouldn't you just play Darkblast or more copies of Life from the Loam instead?
If you are having trouble with the deck, it isnt the deck's problem. It is yours. This deck is card for card similar to 2009 Extended season stock list, except without GGT.
lol... you act like the lack of GGT is not a big deal. it COMPLETELY changes the deck. Not only does it reduce your "biggest" dredger to the Imp, it means you have 1 less playable dredger and have to either plug the hole with a dredge 2 or 3 or with something that doesn't dredge at all. plus, GGT is a threat in and of itself, which is something that cannot be said for the other dredgers in the deck.
I'm not sure if you just haven't done any testing with this, or you played like 2 games and decided it was good, but the deck definitely does NOT kill on turn 4 with anywhere near 70% reliability. Like i said before, it's more like turn 5-6-7.
However...
Quote from tomathan88 »
i'm not saying the deck was complete crap; i won like 1-2 out of the 20 games i played. and that was nice. but still, it seemed way to slow. i'm not a bad dredge player; it wasn't my fault. i adjusted accordingly when i saw that modern dredge was different from legacy dredge. still lost.
This concerns me. I still love this deck and feel that it is very powerful, and my win rate is MUCH higher than this (above 80% G1). So:
-What are the factors that are giving you such high loss rates?
-Is it a specific deck, or vs. the field that you are getting these numbers?
-What is your list?
For me, the truth has been in between your two experiences. The deck has lost much of its blazing speed that GGT could give it in Extended, but it is still incredibly powerful and many people have no idea how to play against it.
I should add that I am not married to this deck, nor am I suggesting it is "the best deck." If, through discussion and further testing, the deck turns out to be much worse than I think, I'm not going to be butthurt or anything.
I'm also not trying to discount either of your experiences with it, it's just that mine have been so much better than what you have outlined that I'm frankly surprised.
Long post but I hope we can get to the bottom of your issues with the deck and hopefully resolve them.
your legacy dredge experience may actually be working against you; this is a completely different animal.
I've been testing this list a bunch with slight tweaks (think i shaved a land and a Glimpse for a Life from the Loam and another Ideas Unbound) and it's pretty solid... You just need to adjust your expectations and play and shoot for turn 5-6-7 rather than the t3-4 that you get in Legacy. Your dredging is often much more piecemeal, which can be good, can be bad. In short: the deck is 3-4 turns slower than it has been in the past (in other formats).
I like the deck, overall, but i agree with you that it is definitely often frustrating.
Seems like a future 2-3 of in some kind of Turbo Fog deck, right?
Jokes? The usual wincon in TurboFog is milling. This is incredibly anti-synergistic with that goal.
And I don't understand all the people that are relieved that it wasn't Time Warp because Pyromancer Ascension would have somehow become "broken." Last I checked, there is already an infinite combo in Standard, and one that is vastly easier to set up.
diateone - no Chieftains in here?
Curious about your SB plan - if you have a sec to give a breakdown of your boarding strategies, I'd appreciate it as it's a big departure from my basically mono-red board.
Main thoughts:
- The mana absolutely sucks. I cannot count the number of games I've lost to not having a 2nd or 3rd land and not hitting it until way too late. I should have done this a couple leagues ago, but I'm going up to 18 or 19 lands, and probably ditching the War Zones. Unfortunately there aren't any cycling lands that ETB untapped...
- Piledriver seems to do pretty much stone nothing in this deck. If I replace it with a 2 drop, I think the 2 drop has pretty much got to have haste. It's just way too slow and fragile. I'm OK trading a 1 mana creature for a Push, especially if it got in for 2 or 3 damage, but Piledriver usually just hits the board (using up a whole turn's worth of mana because of the issue above) and then dies.
- First strike from Loyalist has been great, allowing me to swing through a Wurmcoil with a wide board and kill them before the lifelink kicks in.
- Playing against any kind of 1-for-1-plus-value deck (Grixis, Jeskai, etc.) where they get Snapcaster / Electrolyze / Kcommand is absolutely brutal and usually impossible to recover from. With the increase of the cheap graveyard decks (RB Cycling, As Foretold Living End) I am seriously considering Leylines to shut off this incremental advantage as well as to shut down graveyard decks.
- In that vein, I'm very interested in either Genesis Chamber or Shapers' Sanctuary as mentioned above. Anyone have any thoughts on those? Green splash also gets Tin Street Hooligan / Ancient Grudge / maybe Atarka's Command?
Overall I love the deck but when it stumbles it stumbles HARD. Hoping increasing the land count will help with this. Chime in if you've got other thoughts on the above.
I swear I play that deck at least once a league on MTGO and I have yet to win a match. Just lost to it twice in a row and I feel like it's only getting more popular... I've never seen it in paper but I would like to not completely fold to it online since I see it a lot.
Gifts pile advice / SB tech / any ideas? Or is this one I should just auto-scoop to?
Any thoughts on Wildfire as an alternate ramp goal, either maindeck or out of the board? (Again, in mono-red, with Talismans and Mind Stones etc.)
Might try both tonight and see what happens.
Both very standard lists.
Still on the fence about bringing this deck to Vancouver - I've been playing a lot of Grixis and Junk online and boy is it rough. Considering an audible to Elves - it put up much better results than Ad Naus this weekend across the various SCG Regionals Top 8's.
Anyone else feeling like the deck isn't as well positioned as it could be? Anyone taking something else to an upcoming GP or other large event?
Maybe I'm just being paranoid.
ps i thought this was funny: "The last turn-three deck that remained was Dredge. While Golgari Grave-Troll was banned, we found that Dredge was still very capable of turn-three kills."
I'd love to see the list they used to make that assessment, seeing as how getting this deck down under Turn 4 at the BEST has been the focus of this thread.
Bloodghast, Hedron Crab, and fetches. And as previously mentioned, this deck is not Legacy dredge.
I disagree with this, although it would of course be nice. The strength of this deck is that its game plan (all of this is Game 1) is something that a lot of decks can't really interact with (a lot of your important plays can't be countered: dredging, Bridge triggers for example) and eventually (provided you don't play like a donk) most games will reach a point where there is literally no way you can lose. Turn 4 feels arbitrary: Hypergenesis goes off much sooner and there's not much you can do about that anyway, and you can grind out games that go longer.
TLDR: Assigning a "turn" to this deck is arbitrary as the Modern dredge deck is much less about blazing speed and more about inevitability.
Street Wraith: it's possible, but i think there are better options. IMO, lack of card-draw isn't the problem in this format but rather the lack of discard and to some extent sac outlets.
Shambling Shell: It would basically only be in there to dredge 3, so why wouldn't you just play Darkblast or more copies of Life from the Loam instead?
lol... you act like the lack of GGT is not a big deal. it COMPLETELY changes the deck. Not only does it reduce your "biggest" dredger to the Imp, it means you have 1 less playable dredger and have to either plug the hole with a dredge 2 or 3 or with something that doesn't dredge at all. plus, GGT is a threat in and of itself, which is something that cannot be said for the other dredgers in the deck.
I'm not sure if you just haven't done any testing with this, or you played like 2 games and decided it was good, but the deck definitely does NOT kill on turn 4 with anywhere near 70% reliability. Like i said before, it's more like turn 5-6-7.
However...
This concerns me. I still love this deck and feel that it is very powerful, and my win rate is MUCH higher than this (above 80% G1). So:
-What are the factors that are giving you such high loss rates?
-Is it a specific deck, or vs. the field that you are getting these numbers?
-What is your list?
For me, the truth has been in between your two experiences. The deck has lost much of its blazing speed that GGT could give it in Extended, but it is still incredibly powerful and many people have no idea how to play against it.
I should add that I am not married to this deck, nor am I suggesting it is "the best deck." If, through discussion and further testing, the deck turns out to be much worse than I think, I'm not going to be butthurt or anything.
I'm also not trying to discount either of your experiences with it, it's just that mine have been so much better than what you have outlined that I'm frankly surprised.
Long post but I hope we can get to the bottom of your issues with the deck and hopefully resolve them.
I've been testing this list a bunch with slight tweaks (think i shaved a land and a Glimpse for a Life from the Loam and another Ideas Unbound) and it's pretty solid... You just need to adjust your expectations and play and shoot for turn 5-6-7 rather than the t3-4 that you get in Legacy. Your dredging is often much more piecemeal, which can be good, can be bad. In short: the deck is 3-4 turns slower than it has been in the past (in other formats).
I like the deck, overall, but i agree with you that it is definitely often frustrating.
Jokes? The usual wincon in TurboFog is milling. This is incredibly anti-synergistic with that goal.
And I don't understand all the people that are relieved that it wasn't Time Warp because Pyromancer Ascension would have somehow become "broken." Last I checked, there is already an infinite combo in Standard, and one that is vastly easier to set up.