Do you guys think Quest for the Gemblades has a place in green? Once it gets a counter on it I think it could be pretty board altering. Imagine what would happen if it pumped a Phantom Centaur or a Phantom Tiger. I'm going to take a close look at the rest of the uncommon Quests to see if any of them could find a home in the cube.
The new common Eldrazi definitely could find a spot in a U/C cube. it'll probably replace Fusion Elemental in mine. Hopefully there is an uncommon one at 8 cmc with a better ability. There is no way to consistently hit 11 mana in cube draft.
As for clamp, I see the power argument and obviously in the common/uncommon cube it is more evident. Anyway, I'll toss a clamp and Impulse into the pile of stuff I've got for you in the event you want to give it a go.
I think Impulse is probably the best option as well. I'll definitely give Skullclamp a test drive, it will probably be too powerful, but its too tantalizing to leave on the shelf without trying it.
Do you have the Visions printing of Impulse? It was misprinted originally and then changed in the Beatdown Box Set so that the player doesn't shuffle their library. I think the misprint makes it more powerful.
I was planning on taking out Manriki-Gusari, but the cost and pump of it are so similar to Trusty Machete, and it can kill Lightning Greaves and Loxodon Warhammer. I want to be careful to avoid dropping below a critical mass of artifact removal. Checks and balances.
I also took out the Panorama lands. The cube now stands at 403 cards.
Dominate is really strong, don't cut it. Agree that Carry Away sucks
Agreed. I kept Dominate in and swapped Carry Away for Ice Cage as a quick fix before I drafted the cube with some friends. I'm thinking Ice Cage can come out for Ovinize. I haven't seen anyone run that card, but I think it might have a spot, as its a basically cantrip-less Snakeform.
Also, I think Clockspinning seems a bit too narrow. Not sure what to replace it with, maybe Boomerang?
I think I agree with you. I originally had Pongify in Clockspinning's place. I added Clockspinning because of the goofy interactions with suspend and persist creatures, but it hasn't really seen play. Its one of those cards that in theory seems great but just doesn't bring the heat in actuality. I like Boomerang as a possibility. What about Gigadrowse, Spell Pierce, Standstill, or Impulse?
Incremental Growth, Incremental Blight and Infest all seem like they could be good.
Is Skullclamp omitted for power reasons or availability reasons?
Both. None of the local game shops have it in right now, and it seems to be the consensus of more expirienced cubers that the card is just too powerful. Both of those reasons have deterred me.
Carry Away I'm not so sure about, same with Dominate. You could definitely add Persuasion over Dominate.
Both of those cards could definitely be replaced. Carry away is in there to give blue a way to deal with nasty equipment, and the only reason I included Dominate over Persuasion is the fact that it's instant speed and gives blue a little more variation during combat.
A lot of cool stuff. From first glance red seems like it could use more burn and maybe another small aggro one-drop (Goblin Patrol maybe)
I do like your idea of cutting back on removal. the only thing is that I wonder if it fosters too much a casual feeling about the cube drafting, instead of a more competitive limited feel. I think the best way to check is to make sure the combat tricks you replaced the removal with are being used, instead of people just drafting large numbers of creatures.
I only cut 2-3 removal spells per color, and have been pleased with the results so far. The combat trick cards are used pretty effectively, force a bit more strategy on the attack. I'm still trying to get the balance right, but I think I'm on the right track.
agreed. 5 cost for a 2/4 that doesn't specifically help out immediately and commons/uncommons isn't really the place to attempt combo. the behemoth sledge helps out green and white immensely (especially green) as they lack the evasion creatures that other colors have, so trample giving is needed.
Sadly I think you are probably right. I relish the possibility of dropping a Juniper Order Ranger and then next turn playing a Cloudgoat Ranger, but thats definitely a fantasy scenario, whereas the Sledge will just about always have an impact. Thanks for the feedback.
I've been on the fence about Behemoth Sledge since the beginning. It's so similar to Loxodon Warhammer and Armadillo Cloak, and am not sure what I could cut from G/W to make room for it. What should go?
I've been working on this cube for a couple of months now, and have benefited greatly klug's, folken's, and sharky's lists. Please feel free to leave feedback/suggestions.
The most obvious differences from the other U/C cubes and things I've been working on are as follows:
1) Average CMC: I decided to spread the mana curve out slightly to allow for a handful of more expensive spells (Duskdale Wurm, Deathforge Shaman, Oni of the Wild Places ect..). There is a little Timmy living inside me and I just love tapping out on turn 8 for a fattie.
2) Removal: This is probably the area I have spent the most time tinkering with. Originally my cube had every good common and uncommon removal spell, and I found that most games degenerated into bolt off's untill one player had no cards in their hand. To better foster aggro builds I tried to limit the ammount of removal in Black, Red, and White, while filling the spaces with more utility type cards. (Sunlance for Test of Faith ect...). That being said, there are a couple of removal cards in White that I'm still hoping to include, but haven't been able to get ahold of for budget/availability reasons (Swords to Plowshares, Path the Exhile).
3) Signets: I agree with Lapille on this one. I found that 5 color decks were one of the strongest archtype and were WAY to easy to draft, so I pulled the ten Signets and replaced them with five weaker mana generators (Chromatic Star, Darksteel Ingot ect...).
4) Shadow: I haven't included the Soltari, il-Kor, or Dauthi themes because I'm concerned that Shadow might be be too unbalanced for the cube. I'm very intirested in feedback on this point.
Cards I want to include but haven't been able to get my hands on yet:
One thing that I did in my U/C cube was to limit the quantity of 4/4 flyers. Originally I had something like 12 of them in the cube, and just I didn't like how many games ended up with an Air Elemental and Stratozeppelid squaring off against a Serra Angel and a Morroi. So I took out a few, most notably replacing Moroii with Blizzard Specter, and Stratozeppelid with Riftwing Cloudskate. This increased the value of Serra Angel and the inticement to play 3 colors in Tower Gargloyle.
At the moment I'm considering swapping out Sengir Vampire for Fallen Angel, which I find more flavorful.
I wanted to thank you for all the work you've done on your U/C cube. I've just recently built one myself and deferred heavily to your list. I'd say maybe 85% of it is the same, your list provided me with the framework I needed to get started. Building the cube was probably one of the most enjoyable expiriences I've had with magic thus far, and playing it is absolute blast.
So yea, thanks Klug for being a trailblazer and getting this thing out there.
I'm looking forward to joinging the ongoing conversation.
Nothing jumps out at me as amazing, but I think everything has potential.
My issue with Kozilek and Pathrazer is that they are really easy to keep off the board. I would be more inclined to play them if the "anihilator" keyword had some form of shroud application that read something like:
"Anihilator X: ______ cannot be the target of spells or abilities your opponent controls unless they sacrifice X permanents each time they target ______"
This would give these creatures more staying power, while forcing the opponent to make tough decisions once they hit the board rather than just holding onto an unsummon or a doomblade until they show up.
I think Impulse is probably the best option as well. I'll definitely give Skullclamp a test drive, it will probably be too powerful, but its too tantalizing to leave on the shelf without trying it.
Do you have the Visions printing of Impulse? It was misprinted originally and then changed in the Beatdown Box Set so that the player doesn't shuffle their library. I think the misprint makes it more powerful.
I made the following changes last night:
Pyrokinesis in, Rolling Thunder out.
Kitsune Blademaster in, Ballynock Cohort out. (Not so sure about this one)
Duergar Hedge-Mage in, Goblin Legionnaire out.
Behemoth Sledge in, Juniper Order Ranger out.
Sudden Death in, Victimize out.
Mother of Runes in, Icatian Javelineers out.
Ice Cage in, Carry Away out.
Adventuring Gear and Trusty Machete out.
I was planning on taking out Manriki-Gusari, but the cost and pump of it are so similar to Trusty Machete, and it can kill Lightning Greaves and Loxodon Warhammer. I want to be careful to avoid dropping below a critical mass of artifact removal. Checks and balances.
I also took out the Panorama lands. The cube now stands at 403 cards.
Agreed. I kept Dominate in and swapped Carry Away for Ice Cage as a quick fix before I drafted the cube with some friends. I'm thinking Ice Cage can come out for Ovinize. I haven't seen anyone run that card, but I think it might have a spot, as its a basically cantrip-less Snakeform.
I think I agree with you. I originally had Pongify in Clockspinning's place. I added Clockspinning because of the goofy interactions with suspend and persist creatures, but it hasn't really seen play. Its one of those cards that in theory seems great but just doesn't bring the heat in actuality. I like Boomerang as a possibility. What about Gigadrowse, Spell Pierce, Standstill, or Impulse?
I like those ideas. I think Incremental Growth's spot may be filled with Bestial Menace, but I'm open to making room for it. I really like Incremental Blight, its like a Cone of Flames for black. Not sure what I'd cut for it though. I think Infest is better than Screams from Within, but with Sulfurous Blast, Pyroclasm, Volcanic Fallout, Barter in Blood, Hurricane, Firespout, and Cone of Flames would I have too many sweepers?
Both. None of the local game shops have it in right now, and it seems to be the consensus of more expirienced cubers that the card is just too powerful. Both of those reasons have deterred me.
Both of those cards could definitely be replaced. Carry away is in there to give blue a way to deal with nasty equipment, and the only reason I included Dominate over Persuasion is the fact that it's instant speed and gives blue a little more variation during combat.
Spark Elemental? I'm also thinking of swapping in Magma Jet for Arc Blade.
I only cut 2-3 removal spells per color, and have been pleased with the results so far. The combat trick cards are used pretty effectively, force a bit more strategy on the attack. I'm still trying to get the balance right, but I think I'm on the right track.
Sadly I think you are probably right. I relish the possibility of dropping a Juniper Order Ranger and then next turn playing a Cloudgoat Ranger, but thats definitely a fantasy scenario, whereas the Sledge will just about always have an impact. Thanks for the feedback.
The most obvious differences from the other U/C cubes and things I've been working on are as follows:
1) Average CMC: I decided to spread the mana curve out slightly to allow for a handful of more expensive spells (Duskdale Wurm, Deathforge Shaman, Oni of the Wild Places ect..). There is a little Timmy living inside me and I just love tapping out on turn 8 for a fattie.
2) Removal: This is probably the area I have spent the most time tinkering with. Originally my cube had every good common and uncommon removal spell, and I found that most games degenerated into bolt off's untill one player had no cards in their hand. To better foster aggro builds I tried to limit the ammount of removal in Black, Red, and White, while filling the spaces with more utility type cards. (Sunlance for Test of Faith ect...). That being said, there are a couple of removal cards in White that I'm still hoping to include, but haven't been able to get ahold of for budget/availability reasons (Swords to Plowshares, Path the Exhile).
3) Signets: I agree with Lapille on this one. I found that 5 color decks were one of the strongest archtype and were WAY to easy to draft, so I pulled the ten Signets and replaced them with five weaker mana generators (Chromatic Star, Darksteel Ingot ect...).
4) Shadow: I haven't included the Soltari, il-Kor, or Dauthi themes because I'm concerned that Shadow might be be too unbalanced for the cube. I'm very intirested in feedback on this point.
Cards I want to include but haven't been able to get my hands on yet:
Thats all for now. Check out the spoiler and let me know what you think!
White
Creatures:
Spells:
Green:
Creatures:
Spells:
Blue:
Creatures:
Spells:
Red:
Creatures:
Spells:
Black:
Creatures:
Spells:
Multicolor:
Tri-Color
Five Color
Fusion Elemental
Green/White:
White/Black:
Black/Red:
Red/White:
White/Blue:
Blue/Red:
Blue/Black:
Black/Green:
Red/Green:
Green/Blue:
Artifiact
Equipment:
Mana Generation:
Creatures:
Utility/Other:
Land
At the moment I'm considering swapping out Sengir Vampire for Fallen Angel, which I find more flavorful.
What do you guys think?
I noticed that you aren't running Skullclamp in your cube. Have you found it to be unbalanced/broken?
I wanted to thank you for all the work you've done on your U/C cube. I've just recently built one myself and deferred heavily to your list. I'd say maybe 85% of it is the same, your list provided me with the framework I needed to get started. Building the cube was probably one of the most enjoyable expiriences I've had with magic thus far, and playing it is absolute blast.
So yea, thanks Klug for being a trailblazer and getting this thing out there.
I'm looking forward to joinging the ongoing conversation.
My issue with Kozilek and Pathrazer is that they are really easy to keep off the board. I would be more inclined to play them if the "anihilator" keyword had some form of shroud application that read something like:
"Anihilator X: ______ cannot be the target of spells or abilities your opponent controls unless they sacrifice X permanents each time they target ______"
This would give these creatures more staying power, while forcing the opponent to make tough decisions once they hit the board rather than just holding onto an unsummon or a doomblade until they show up.