i would personally switch to all-black one-drops (bloodsoaked champion, mardu shadowspear and tomrented hero) and switch out some high end stuff for mogis' marauder. card is bonkers.
I agree, might as well just go mono black and not have to worry about the manabase at that point. You still get brutal hordechief and strike leader.
What deck are you playing against that has drown, anger, end hostilities, perilous vault and crux of fate? your opponent is most likely only going to have 1 of those sweepers. There's also the fact that your opponent has to actually have the sweeper on turn 3 in order to blow you out. We're an aggro deck, having lands like temple's come into play tapped sounds like aids when all you want to turn is curve from turn 1 to turn 4 and kill them as fast as possible. Also taking damage from playing your lands and thoughtseize is just going to make you lose to something like boss sligh. If the metagame allows you to play pains lands, fetch lands and mana confluence without caring about decks that are faster then you by all means hedge more against the drown / anger's.
You appear to have misread what I wrote. It isn't that one deck has all those sweepers, but all those sweepers do see significant play across the meta. Right now, most of the mid range decks have the ability to transform into control decks after sideboarding. Yes, they have to have the sweeper for it to get you, but they also often have access to a lot of one-for-one removal.
I never advocated for adding scry lands to this deck. Not sure why that was mentioned.
Yes, with the painlands and confluence, the three color Mardu aggro deck will lose to anything faster than it and, in fact, to many decks that are the same speed since it hastens its own demise so effectively. No deck has it all. What I do know is that with token strategies being popular, many of the cards that are good against them work very well against traditional creature based aggro like Mono-black aggro, B/W warriors, and Mono-red. This is why the mini-sweepers are such popular sideboard options; they are solid answers to a big chunk of decks. In my meta, Abzan Aggro will have two or more Drown in Sorrow in the sideboard and likely the full compliment of Bile Blight in the 75. Abzan Midrange typically packs 6 or more sweeper/mini-sweeper effects in the 75, then four Bile Blight and some other removal.
I am not saying I have the answer but I am relatively confident that I know the problem these aggro decks face. You can and will win the majority of your game 1s, but best of three is another story unless you have a good plan for the hate cards.
I didn't misread anything , my point is no deck is running all of those sweepers. At most you're going to see 2 out of any deck. I still don't think that trying to hedge against 2 sweepers (out of 5) is a reason to kill yourself against other aggro decks.
While not a contribution to boardwipe discussion, how does Ajani Steadfast fare for Orzhov Warriors?
His first ability at worst gives a little lifelink and first strike to one guy in a swing, or it can give say, Mardu Strike Leader evasion for his dash. Lifelink can help offset your painlands too?
His second ability pumps all your warriors slowly. While perhaps not enough to avoid an Anger or Sorrow, it can still help close the window of time that your opponent has to respond (or even get you to a safer toughness with Chief of the Scale?
His third ability is uhhh... alright I guess? Buys you time to restock if you somehow trigger this? Probably not useful.
He's 4cmc too, so you can get him in pretty easy.
Ajani is interesting, I think we might be ok with pumps from the chief's / obelisk's. if we are looking for lifelink to help against aggro decks, I would use sorin for this type of deck instead of ajani.
Here is the new list I have been play testing and it seems to be pretty freaking mean at the moment. Can easily shut some decks down by T4 and T5. Looking for thoughts and input on it.
The land I think may need some tweaking as I think its a bit heavy in white.
Athreos has been an all-star, and I havent been sad to see him ever, but I also have never seen 2 at once, so thinking of cutting him down to 1 of
Valorous Stance is another all-star, letting me get through Rhinos, Wingmates, Coursers, and anything else my warriors cant do on their own. Also provides protection.
Boon of Erebus I have not been overly impressed with as of yet, but I definitely see the benefit in killing rhinos and living.
Brutal Hordechief is Hellrider, nuff said, but really I do miss Haste, but the drain and his rarely used mana ability makes up for it.
Mardu Shadowspear I like because even when it gets blocked it gets 1 through, and it has become a favorite for me.
Anyone have any criticism or any thoughts/comments?
I'm trying to play this as close to a RDW shell as I can (specifically the RDW from RTR), curving at 4 mana, and just trying to overload and push through.
You might be able to cut a land or 2. It really depends on how often you're activating the Brutal Hordechief, if it's only been once in 10 matches I would say it might be safe to shave some lands. You could add Battle Brawler maybe Hero's Downfall / Thoughtseize. To help out with the to many white sources, I would add 1 Urborg
At least in my experience which is all pre-FRF. The Dash mechanic could change this. Haste is the best weapon against sorcery speed sweepers so perhaps Dash will allow the deck to not fold without the safety net of Mardu Ascendancy.
What deck are you playing against that has drown, anger, end hostilities, perilous vault and crux of fate? your opponent is most likely only going to have 1 of those sweepers. There's also the fact that your opponent has to actually have the sweeper on turn 3 in order to blow you out. We're an aggro deck, having lands like temple's come into play tapped sounds like aids when all you want to turn is curve from turn 1 to turn 4 and kill them as fast as possible. Also taking damage from playing your lands and thoughtseize is just going to make you lose to something like boss sligh. If the metagame allows you to play pains lands, fetch lands and mana confluence without caring about decks that are faster then you by all means hedge more against the drown / anger's.
I think Warriors must be a mardu deck. Otherwise you leave out goblin rabblemaster, war-name hero, mardu ascendancy, alesha, collateral damage, etc.
The problem with going 3 colors is that the mana isn't worth it. It woks fine in junk (Abzan) because they are playing green and it allows them to play siege rhino. but talk about having lands come into play tapped / not having the right color on turn 1 to play a 2/1 or (most importantly) taking so much pain from your own lands to make up for the fact that other lands come into play tapped that you just die to mono red because you have no way to recover. The worst thing I can think of is to play a deck with Caves of Kolios, Battlefield Forge, Mana confluence, fetch lands and putting myself to 15 on turn 3 against a junk (abzan for you newer players) aggro deck, or the mono red deck that just lightning strikes the rabble when I play it. It's a novel idea but between taking to much damage off your lands / the tempo loss from not having the correct colors isn't worth the splash for creatures that the format was already set to beat on.
Honestly it's a problem i'm currently struggling with. I normally have been playing just mono black for the past couple of months and always put up good results with it. Now with the new set coming out I wanted to try warriors, but im still struggling with whether it's actually better for me to put white in the deck and take damage from my own lands / having awkward hands with only temples as lands in order to play cards that have a lot synergy with each other.
Whoops, that was a transcription error. It's fixed now. Funnily enough, it was actually supposed to be Executioner, as my testing has shown that he's actually pretty cool. Fantastic against UW Heroic.
I also played Mono Black, and I'm iffy about mainboarding 4 Thoughtseize. I'd much prefer to have the removal and protection mainboard.
As i've seen more and more heroic decklsit's come out there is going to be a giant problem with Monastery Mentor. Being able to make token's to sac to the 3/1 is just disastrous. Frankly I'm not sure how we beat that card unless it's hold up 2 removal spells at once for it. Honestly Thoughtseize is my catch all card. Yeah it sucks like any discard spell would after turn 5 but the incredible tempo you get from turn 1 2/1 dude turn 2 thoughtseize courser / drown / anger then play another 2/1 just can win you games. I can't tell you how often I take an opponents courser then watch then stumble for 2 turns and play nothing and then die to a mogis's marauder.
Just throwing this out there, don't know if anyone else caught this, but you have 6 downfall in both the op and your second post of the decklist )2 in the main, 4 in the side). Personally, I've been running mono black for the past couple of months and theres really no reason for a black based aggro deck to not run 4 Thoughtseize. I liked Boon when I was playing mono B but my problem with it was that it did nothing against bile blight, drown, and utter end. Maybe warrior's is different in that you get extra toughness from the Obelisk / chief.
I would remove the 2 extra downfall from the main, and 2 of the boon's to put in thoughtsieze. I really like having downfall in the main but you could get away with not having them in the main due to stance but now you open up 4 slots in the sideboard.
For the extra sideboard slots, I would consider Merciless Executioner. I dont know how the heroic match up is (and what they added due to fate reforged) but they generally never have a ton of creatures and getting to pick off possibly their 1 big creature )if theyre looking to protect it with god's willing) all while you sac a blood soaked champion sounds amazing.
tyrants choice is a strict upgrade to flame rift, and being in burn you can never have to many cards that read "deal 3 damage / opponent loses 3 life"
as for the splash making it "weaker" I only see an opinion like that if we were playing 3 colors in standard. Does having 2 badlands turn on their wastelands? Obviously but you know what's a great way to not get (no pun intended) burned by wasteland? DONT PLAY INTO IT. Jesus if you have a fetch turn 1 and decide to fetch out a Badlands instead of mountain on the play against an unknown opponent, you get wasted and lose then it was your fault in the first place.
Honestly I love having the splash for the flexibility of Rakdos Charm. The card is an all-star, (on a funny side note, I've beaten elves with this card). Also don't forget if you're playing against a reanimator deck, it's always nice to not lose to a turn 2 Iona because you didnt draw a sideboard card like Macabre, leyline, or whatever other gy hoser you have.
Hi sorry, I dont mean to waste anyones time or anything but i was wondering what the rule is on a player playing a match calling a judge on a spectator who was talking to someone relatively close to the table about another player
finally a card where dies to removal is an argument. At 1 toughness a whole lot of red/black will kill this, and it doesn't do anything when it comes into play.
In response to your Lightning Bolt ill make Skinshifter an 0/8.... (obviously I haven't used the ability yet this turn)
There are more then enough Vines of Vastwood tricks to keep your creatures alive. And if you want to waste a Bolt on him instead of my Fauna Shaman then by all means please do so.
Not to mention there isnt a little artifact creature called Spellskite that happens to do a pretty good job of having removal targeted at him.
Vala was only made tier 1 because of Primeval Titan before m11 it was hardly a competitive deck, and adding a creature that add's more creatures against a deck with sweeper's and counters shouldn't matter at all
The problem with this card (especially against green) is that youre paying 6 mana for a pseudo Path to Exile. Its too cute of a trick (in a Venser build) to even bother with and without Venser its a junk rare in standard.
I could pay 6 mana for a Frost Titan and just lock down the biggest problem.
If youre playing a Venser build, I remember seeing a thread in the Standard Deck Creation about a Bant Venser build.
As a Valakut player, I love facing these types of cards, every time I see a leyline, memoricide, sadistic sacrament, etc., I giggle on the inside. You waste a turn doing nothing while I keep taking steps toward your impending doom. Valakut has more than 1 angle of attack, and GSZ allows us to get what angle we want more consistently, as well as silver bullets. Honestly, the best way to keep Valakut down is to out race it or apply relentless oppression, and Caw-Blade did that best. Now that it's gone... we'll see.
Your other angel is what... Avenger of Zendikar? Personally I am more then happy taking on your non land fetching plant token producing creature. Primeval Titan obviously made Vala, before it was hardly tier 2 (if that high)
Leyline is less impressive seeing how easily it is to deal with an enchantment in G. I am more then happy with playing a Memoricide naming the biggest threat in your deck. Sure I may not be advancing on the board but I fail to see how im "wasting a turn doing nothing" by taking out the only reason why that deck is a Tier 1 deck in the first place
Wow. Jace, Emo-Kind Extraordinaire. The abilities are just not that powerful, and his cost is definitely too high to see constructed play. They really went the total opposite direction since his last incarnation I guess.
Well considering they went way overboard (and admitted it was a mistake) to make Jace2.0 as strong as he was I wouldnt imagine they would make that mistake twice
why play a card that doesn't even help you attacking the meta and not even a good answer to valakut? MBC? is that a joke? what % you gonna face one?
No one knows what the meta is, and every meta is different. My shop is very competitive with about 50 players every week that play at fnm and less then 5 people were consistently playing Caw-blade.
If there is a lot of "target player" cards being played then other then it being a terrible top-deck why not?
I agree, might as well just go mono black and not have to worry about the manabase at that point. You still get brutal hordechief and strike leader.
I didn't misread anything , my point is no deck is running all of those sweepers. At most you're going to see 2 out of any deck. I still don't think that trying to hedge against 2 sweepers (out of 5) is a reason to kill yourself against other aggro decks.
Ajani is interesting, I think we might be ok with pumps from the chief's / obelisk's. if we are looking for lifelink to help against aggro decks, I would use sorin for this type of deck instead of ajani.
You might be able to cut a land or 2. It really depends on how often you're activating the Brutal Hordechief, if it's only been once in 10 matches I would say it might be safe to shave some lands. You could add Battle Brawler maybe Hero's Downfall / Thoughtseize. To help out with the to many white sources, I would add 1 Urborg
What deck are you playing against that has drown, anger, end hostilities, perilous vault and crux of fate? your opponent is most likely only going to have 1 of those sweepers. There's also the fact that your opponent has to actually have the sweeper on turn 3 in order to blow you out. We're an aggro deck, having lands like temple's come into play tapped sounds like aids when all you want to turn is curve from turn 1 to turn 4 and kill them as fast as possible. Also taking damage from playing your lands and thoughtseize is just going to make you lose to something like boss sligh. If the metagame allows you to play pains lands, fetch lands and mana confluence without caring about decks that are faster then you by all means hedge more against the drown / anger's.
The problem with going 3 colors is that the mana isn't worth it. It woks fine in junk (Abzan) because they are playing green and it allows them to play siege rhino. but talk about having lands come into play tapped / not having the right color on turn 1 to play a 2/1 or (most importantly) taking so much pain from your own lands to make up for the fact that other lands come into play tapped that you just die to mono red because you have no way to recover. The worst thing I can think of is to play a deck with Caves of Kolios, Battlefield Forge, Mana confluence, fetch lands and putting myself to 15 on turn 3 against a junk (abzan for you newer players) aggro deck, or the mono red deck that just lightning strikes the rabble when I play it. It's a novel idea but between taking to much damage off your lands / the tempo loss from not having the correct colors isn't worth the splash for creatures that the format was already set to beat on.
Honestly it's a problem i'm currently struggling with. I normally have been playing just mono black for the past couple of months and always put up good results with it. Now with the new set coming out I wanted to try warriors, but im still struggling with whether it's actually better for me to put white in the deck and take damage from my own lands / having awkward hands with only temples as lands in order to play cards that have a lot synergy with each other.
As i've seen more and more heroic decklsit's come out there is going to be a giant problem with Monastery Mentor. Being able to make token's to sac to the 3/1 is just disastrous. Frankly I'm not sure how we beat that card unless it's hold up 2 removal spells at once for it. Honestly Thoughtseize is my catch all card. Yeah it sucks like any discard spell would after turn 5 but the incredible tempo you get from turn 1 2/1 dude turn 2 thoughtseize courser / drown / anger then play another 2/1 just can win you games. I can't tell you how often I take an opponents courser then watch then stumble for 2 turns and play nothing and then die to a mogis's marauder.
I would remove the 2 extra downfall from the main, and 2 of the boon's to put in thoughtsieze. I really like having downfall in the main but you could get away with not having them in the main due to stance but now you open up 4 slots in the sideboard.
For the extra sideboard slots, I would consider Merciless Executioner. I dont know how the heroic match up is (and what they added due to fate reforged) but they generally never have a ton of creatures and getting to pick off possibly their 1 big creature )if theyre looking to protect it with god's willing) all while you sac a blood soaked champion sounds amazing.
as for the splash making it "weaker" I only see an opinion like that if we were playing 3 colors in standard. Does having 2 badlands turn on their wastelands? Obviously but you know what's a great way to not get (no pun intended) burned by wasteland? DONT PLAY INTO IT. Jesus if you have a fetch turn 1 and decide to fetch out a Badlands instead of mountain on the play against an unknown opponent, you get wasted and lose then it was your fault in the first place.
Honestly I love having the splash for the flexibility of Rakdos Charm. The card is an all-star, (on a funny side note, I've beaten elves with this card). Also don't forget if you're playing against a reanimator deck, it's always nice to not lose to a turn 2 Iona because you didnt draw a sideboard card like Macabre, leyline, or whatever other gy hoser you have.
Wow luminum didn't expect anyone to get that tweet up as fast as you did :p.
Like most people have said o-ring is a good reprint.
done
Because bad players are bad?
In response to your Lightning Bolt ill make Skinshifter an 0/8.... (obviously I haven't used the ability yet this turn)
There are more then enough Vines of Vastwood tricks to keep your creatures alive. And if you want to waste a Bolt on him instead of my Fauna Shaman then by all means please do so.
Not to mention there isnt a little artifact creature called Spellskite that happens to do a pretty good job of having removal targeted at him.
So you mean Xenograft that just came out in NPH right?
And now I can play Consecrated Sphinx with a pump AND hexproof!!! WOO
Oh no! Because theres no such cards like Day of Judgment or Gideon Jura too help deal with creatures!
Vala was only made tier 1 because of Primeval Titan before m11 it was hardly a competitive deck, and adding a creature that add's more creatures against a deck with sweeper's and counters shouldn't matter at all
The problem with this card (especially against green) is that youre paying 6 mana for a pseudo Path to Exile. Its too cute of a trick (in a Venser build) to even bother with and without Venser its a junk rare in standard.
I could pay 6 mana for a Frost Titan and just lock down the biggest problem.
If youre playing a Venser build, I remember seeing a thread in the Standard Deck Creation about a Bant Venser build.
Your other angel is what... Avenger of Zendikar? Personally I am more then happy taking on your non land fetching plant token producing creature. Primeval Titan obviously made Vala, before it was hardly tier 2 (if that high)
Leyline is less impressive seeing how easily it is to deal with an enchantment in G. I am more then happy with playing a Memoricide naming the biggest threat in your deck. Sure I may not be advancing on the board but I fail to see how im "wasting a turn doing nothing" by taking out the only reason why that deck is a Tier 1 deck in the first place
Well considering they went way overboard (and admitted it was a mistake) to make Jace2.0 as strong as he was I wouldnt imagine they would make that mistake twice
No one knows what the meta is, and every meta is different. My shop is very competitive with about 50 players every week that play at fnm and less then 5 people were consistently playing Caw-blade.
If there is a lot of "target player" cards being played then other then it being a terrible top-deck why not?