How has Phyrexian Obliterator been working out for you? I play it in my Erebos deck, so I know its a really nice card, but I would be concerned about playing it before turns 6-7 with a tricolor manabase, even with the deck being primarily black.
I always keep trying to put my lone Karakas into my Captain Sisay "Legends Matter" deck for it's interesting interactions with Mangara of Corondor, Mikaeus, the Lunarch, and Polukranos, World Eater, and most everyone freaks out about it if you even mention it so I take it out. I find it funny that these are the same people that tell others "Run more removal if General X or Y is ruining your games", yet given an answer like Karakas that they can't (or don't want to) deal with and they blow a fuse. Well if Karakas is ruining your games, why can't I just tell you "Run more removal..."? It's not like Strip Mine, Dust Bowl, Tectonic Edge, etc. are bad cards that the existence of Karakas is "making" you run to answer, and its not like there aren't plenty of targets other than Karakas worthy of land destruction (Gaea's Cradle, Cabal Coffers, Academy Ruins, etc.). I think that the effect that Karakas would have on the environment is way overblown, especially given that it can only be run in white decks (which is something that people forget).
Anyway, I don't expect Karakas to be unbanned anytime soon and I'm fine with that, but people need to get a grip and realize that it wouldn't be the end of the world to give white decks another solid answer to generals that need immediate answers. I don't see anyone calling for the banning of Arena of the Ancients, Empress Galina, or Tsabo Tavoc for "interacting poorly with the format" (and yes, I understand that Karakas is much better than any of those cards by miles).
Nobody calls for those cards being banned exactly because they are miles worse than Karakas. You said this yourself, why even bother mentioning them then?
I honestly think you're massively downplaying the effect that Karakas would have on the format. The card can be run in any deck, and single-handedly shuts down a large number of commanders from even being viable. Your "run more answers" argument doesn't make sense either, because The number of viable cards that destroy lands is relatively low for this format, while the number of answers to a troublesome general (which is the counter-argument you brought up) are much more numerous, and are generally not as narrow.
I am not necessarily for the banning of T&N, but your argument makes no sense imo. There are a lot of cards on the banlist that can be used for fair plays, if someone decided they wanted to use them sub-optimally, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be banned. Tinker, Panoptic Mirror, Painter's Servant etc. can all be fair cards if you really want them to be, but that doesn't mean that most people won't use them to win the game/do something really unfair.
There is a difference with T&N. You can run it optimally in your deck, but not have any 2 creature combos, and this happens quite a bit. Tinker never seemed to do this (and didn't cost 9 mana). PM relates very closely to T&N re: fair use, but there are tons of sorceries that are fine once, really format warping when they land every turn.
That is a good point. However, in the case of T&N, it is often as simple as adding 1 other card to your deck in order to make it a 1-card combo. I have built some decks with the philosophy of refraining from 1-card combos (T&N and Survival of the Fittest are the big offenders in my other decks) and I find that I would have to take out cards I would otherwise like to play if I played T&N. The main point here is that it is almost hard to not have a T&N combo. With that in mind, it is not very hard to have T&N act like Coalition Victory in many respects.
It is really not, a LOT of those cards are just bad w/o T&N. Some people also just dislike combo, but want to bring out beaters.
Like i said, I am not for the banning of T&N (though I wouldn't be sad to see it go either). I tend to play mostly on MTGO and from my own experience when someone casts a T&N it is to always to get Kiki + Pestermite, Michaeus + Triskelion, or Avenger + Craterhoof etc. to end the game. I honestly can't think of a single time it hasn't been cast against me to win the game that turn. I think the fact it requires 9 mana and relies on creatures is enough to keep it off the banlist, but I have to be honest that I don't find the card to be fun/interesting to play with or against.
[quote from="liquid_water »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/204400-discussion-of-the-official-multiplayer-banlist?comment=23290"]I played a game yesterday where tooth and nail resolved fetching avenger of zendikar and a grave titan. The next player cast elesh norn..... I'm confused, I thought tooth and nail had a game over clause.... I think you just play with people that want to combo and will continue to combo with or without tooth and nail.
You can also cast Coalition Victory when you have no creatures in play. What's your point?
No you can't. Coalition victory is banned because, unlike tooth and nail, it does end the game, and offers no counter play.
Tooth and nail CAN win the game if the caster DECIDES to run/fetch a combo and the table DOESN'T kill the enabler. That's like three points in the process where poop hits the fan in the whole tooth wins the game argument.
Coalition victory, by design can only win the game or do nothing when cast. There's no interpretation or fair use for this card, it wins.
I am not necessarily for the banning of T&N, but your argument makes no sense imo. There are a lot of cards on the banlist that can be used for fair plays, if someone decided they wanted to use them sub-optimally, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be banned. Tinker, Panoptic Mirror, Painter's Servant etc. can all be fair cards if you really want them to be, but that doesn't mean that most people won't use them to win the game/do something really unfair.
I've been following this thread for a while and decided to go ahead and build the deck, so thank you to everyone who has contributed to it. I was wondering however, how the decks fairs in a more control heavy meta, and what the first changes would be to the list to compensate for that?
I do not tend to play against many aggro decks and question whether cards like Marton Stromgald and Preyseizer Dragon will be useful wincons since they rely on having a decent board to begin with, don't have haste, have no self-protection, and no effect from dying.
Thanks in advance for the help, I'm really looking forward to getting this deck sleeved up.
Hi all, I’ve been following the Commander section of MTGSalvation for a long time but this is my first post here.
I always wanted to make a more competitive version of Darien and eventually designed this iteration, which revolves around his token generation and abusing it. Originally, I tried a very heavy soldier tribal version, but it wasn’t able to compete if the game went long or the board was wiped multiple times. I would really appreciate some feedback on whether my list looks like a valid approach and what I could do to improve it.
Generally, the deck tries to flood the board with tokens and win through keeping the board free with wraths and sac effects. Wasteland is a natural inclusion to this deck and will be added when I can pick one up.
Also, I'm not sure if its the new site, but some of the card links are not working correctly even though they appear in the database and are spelled correctly. Anyone know what causes this?
Dies to removal is a terrible argument for a creature being bad. If they sac creatures to buy turns to find an answer then you are gaining card advantage. If they sac a creature and find a kill spell it is a 2 for 1. \
Tarmagoyf can be chumped everyturn and dies to any removal that would kill this demon. Is Tarmagoyf a terrible card?
Not really a fair comparison.
Goyf is only 2 mana, splashable, and will likely kill faster than the demon.
I'm not saying the demon is bad by any means, but goyf is in a different league.
Have you tried adding a Fae shell to that Grixis? You know... adding Faeries, some manlands and cutting the ultimatum. It gets all-instant deck that has 4 more counterspells via Spellstutters... also I have absolutely NO IDEA how can you have trouble stabilizing after you clear his board on 10 life... ok he drops a creature T4, you tutor your burn/removal via Mystical Teachings and smile at him... I dont see how can you lose to random creature drops after you hit turn 4...
I haven't tested your Fae build yet, but I definitely will. It looks like a neat idea, since everything has flash or is an instant.
I only have 2 concerns, you only have 2 think twice for cheap card draw, how do you draw out of mana screw? I know you have a low curve for a control deck but it seems like if you need to get to 4 mana asap and missing a drop/land D would hurt pretty bad against aggro.
Also, how is the mana base? I noticed you're running 4 Mutavault? (obvious great synergy with the faeries) Seems like it could present some problems in a 3 color deck, especially with cryptic.
I have been saying that for the last month... And no one listened to it. Zoo most likely has 2-5 Creatures by the time you hit 7. land drop and the rest is Burn/PtE... if you can shoot that blasted Nacatl with bolt T1, that goyf with Terminate T2 and counter that KoR T3 and then prevent them from resolving Elspeth.. you most likely will win, it is that easy, but people imagine that Zoo is some godly-incarnation-thing that is impossible to kill for a mere mortal.
I don't know about you but I can probably count on 1 hand the number of games I've curved out perfectly (also hitting land drops) into turn 1 Bolt, turn 2 Terminate, turn 3 counter, turn 4 stop Elspth/BBE. This is not an even remotely realistic expectation for winning against zoo.
The reason that no one is listening is because those of us who have thoroughly tested Grixis already know it can't reliably stand up to both Aggro and Combo.
Resolving a Cruel Ultimatum is great if you live that long but keep in mind that Naya Zoo often runs Boom/Bust. Combine that with the lack of good card draw Modern and your chances of hitting 7 mana on turn 7 are not likely.
I play Grixis control in modern, and it has been around 50/50 even against the uber-aggressive tribal flames Zoo lists. I ran 9 spot removal and 4 Damnation main I believe, and no countermagic in the early versions. Later versions have Snare and Mana Leak rather than discard which should improve the matchup quite a bit (Blightning is pretty bad against Zoo, and Snare >>>> Inquisition in the matchup). This is my current list:
The open slot will most likely be janky red hate like Dragon's Claw or Sun Droplet, as there is a lot of burn in my meta and it's a bad matchup. I haven't been able to test much lately due to the lack of players down here, but I highly recommend testing this list as a starting point. I really want to work Makeshift Mannequin back in here as it's pretty aweome, but there's no room.
I can believe that this list has a decent game against Zoo since you have a ton of creature hate.
Seems like you would absolutely get destroyed by combo, you have so many dead cards especially against Splinter Twin.
Control exists in other formats too, with a modern design sensibility. It's a matter of finding out which build to run, instead of relying on what was effective before. If aggro is the problem, run less permission and more removal.
The other widely played format with Modern's design sensibility is Legacy. Control does indeed thrive there but it has access to a host of cards that we do not. On the other hand, Modern Zoo and Legacy Zoo are essentially the same deck.
It's not simply a matter of just running more removal, even running 4 wrath MB doesn't suddenly make the matchup great. Control has a major lack of good card draw at the moment
Please keep in mind though, I am in no way saying that control in unplayable right now. I just wouldn't play control if I was going to a modern tournament tomorrow.
If you are trying, forgive me, I wasnt talking about you. But there is a good portion of people complaining about certain archtypes being unplayable because their pet cards were banned. Control was being played long before AV,MM, and Jace 2.0 were printed. Anyone saying they NEED the cards that are banned to play the an archtype are not even trying. It may be insulting (but true in many cases), its not naive.
I actually agree with a lot of the points you make, but I wanted to address the one issue I highlighted.
It's true that control was around way before these banned cards, but magic was a very different game years ago. Creatures have been undergoing powercreep for a long time now, which is why more powerful control cards had to be printed.
I remember the first time someone went BBE -> Woolly Thoctar I almost couldn't believe you could get 8/6 power toughness of creatures for only 4 mana. A 5/4 for 3 mana used to be unheard of or would have had a large drawback.
Currently, control does not have access to their more powerful spells while Zoo has access to the most efficient creatures available and was barely touched by the bannings.
I'm not trying to jump the gun here and say control is unplayable, but I've been testing all manner of control lists against zoo ranging from U/w, Esper, and Grixis to NLU and the matchup just seems unfavorable.
So the idea of U/B Machine got me coming up with a decklist. I didn't do anything too original here, just took the old shell of Machine Red and filled it in with U/B
Here's the list so far, sideboard is still under construction
Nobody calls for those cards being banned exactly because they are miles worse than Karakas. You said this yourself, why even bother mentioning them then?
I honestly think you're massively downplaying the effect that Karakas would have on the format. The card can be run in any deck, and single-handedly shuts down a large number of commanders from even being viable. Your "run more answers" argument doesn't make sense either, because The number of viable cards that destroy lands is relatively low for this format, while the number of answers to a troublesome general (which is the counter-argument you brought up) are much more numerous, and are generally not as narrow.
Like i said, I am not for the banning of T&N (though I wouldn't be sad to see it go either). I tend to play mostly on MTGO and from my own experience when someone casts a T&N it is to always to get Kiki + Pestermite, Michaeus + Triskelion, or Avenger + Craterhoof etc. to end the game. I honestly can't think of a single time it hasn't been cast against me to win the game that turn. I think the fact it requires 9 mana and relies on creatures is enough to keep it off the banlist, but I have to be honest that I don't find the card to be fun/interesting to play with or against.
I am not necessarily for the banning of T&N, but your argument makes no sense imo. There are a lot of cards on the banlist that can be used for fair plays, if someone decided they wanted to use them sub-optimally, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be banned. Tinker, Panoptic Mirror, Painter's Servant etc. can all be fair cards if you really want them to be, but that doesn't mean that most people won't use them to win the game/do something really unfair.
I do not tend to play against many aggro decks and question whether cards like Marton Stromgald and Preyseizer Dragon will be useful wincons since they rely on having a decent board to begin with, don't have haste, have no self-protection, and no effect from dying.
Thanks in advance for the help, I'm really looking forward to getting this deck sleeved up.
I always wanted to make a more competitive version of Darien and eventually designed this iteration, which revolves around his token generation and abusing it. Originally, I tried a very heavy soldier tribal version, but it wasn’t able to compete if the game went long or the board was wiped multiple times. I would really appreciate some feedback on whether my list looks like a valid approach and what I could do to improve it.
Decklist:
1 Ajani’s Pridemate
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Auriok Champion
1 Benalish Commander
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Burnished Hart
1 Captain of the Watch
1 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Cloudgoat Ranger
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Field Marshal
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Intrepid Hero
1 Knight-Captain of Eos
1 Loxodon Gatekeeper
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
1 Mirror Entity
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Soul Warden
1 Soul’s Attendant
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sun Titan
1 Suture Priest
1 Twilight Shepherd
1 World Queller
1 Endless Horizons
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Marshal’s Anthem
1 Martyr’s Bond
1 Oblivion ring
1 Spear of Heliod
Artifacts (12)
1 Coat of Arms
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Jinxed Idol
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Marble Diamond
1 Skullclamp
1 Smokestack
1 Sol Ring
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Whispersilk Cloak
Sorceries (7)
1 Alliance of Arms
1 Conqueror’s Pledge
1 Gift of Estates
1 Hour of Reckoning
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Martial Coup
1 Wrath of God
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblation
1 Path to Exile
1 Return to Dust
1 Swords to Plowshares
Planeswalkers (3)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Elspeth Tirel
1 Elspeth, Sun’s Champion
Lands (38)
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Brass
1 Daru Encampment
1 Emeria, The Sky Ruin
1 Forbidding Watchtower
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Strip Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Tectonic Edge
25 Plains
Generally, the deck tries to flood the board with tokens and win through keeping the board free with wraths and sac effects. Wasteland is a natural inclusion to this deck and will be added when I can pick one up.
Also, I'm not sure if its the new site, but some of the card links are not working correctly even though they appear in the database and are spelled correctly. Anyone know what causes this?
Thanks for the help!
Not really a fair comparison.
Goyf is only 2 mana, splashable, and will likely kill faster than the demon.
I'm not saying the demon is bad by any means, but goyf is in a different league.
I haven't tested your Fae build yet, but I definitely will. It looks like a neat idea, since everything has flash or is an instant.
I only have 2 concerns, you only have 2 think twice for cheap card draw, how do you draw out of mana screw? I know you have a low curve for a control deck but it seems like if you need to get to 4 mana asap and missing a drop/land D would hurt pretty bad against aggro.
Also, how is the mana base? I noticed you're running 4 Mutavault? (obvious great synergy with the faeries) Seems like it could present some problems in a 3 color deck, especially with cryptic.
I don't know about you but I can probably count on 1 hand the number of games I've curved out perfectly (also hitting land drops) into turn 1 Bolt, turn 2 Terminate, turn 3 counter, turn 4 stop Elspth/BBE. This is not an even remotely realistic expectation for winning against zoo.
The reason that no one is listening is because those of us who have thoroughly tested Grixis already know it can't reliably stand up to both Aggro and Combo.
Resolving a Cruel Ultimatum is great if you live that long but keep in mind that Naya Zoo often runs Boom/Bust. Combine that with the lack of good card draw Modern and your chances of hitting 7 mana on turn 7 are not likely.
I can believe that this list has a decent game against Zoo since you have a ton of creature hate.
Seems like you would absolutely get destroyed by combo, you have so many dead cards especially against Splinter Twin.
The other widely played format with Modern's design sensibility is Legacy. Control does indeed thrive there but it has access to a host of cards that we do not. On the other hand, Modern Zoo and Legacy Zoo are essentially the same deck.
It's not simply a matter of just running more removal, even running 4 wrath MB doesn't suddenly make the matchup great. Control has a major lack of good card draw at the moment
Please keep in mind though, I am in no way saying that control in unplayable right now. I just wouldn't play control if I was going to a modern tournament tomorrow.
I actually agree with a lot of the points you make, but I wanted to address the one issue I highlighted.
It's true that control was around way before these banned cards, but magic was a very different game years ago. Creatures have been undergoing powercreep for a long time now, which is why more powerful control cards had to be printed.
I remember the first time someone went BBE -> Woolly Thoctar I almost couldn't believe you could get 8/6 power toughness of creatures for only 4 mana. A 5/4 for 3 mana used to be unheard of or would have had a large drawback.
Currently, control does not have access to their more powerful spells while Zoo has access to the most efficient creatures available and was barely touched by the bannings.
I'm not trying to jump the gun here and say control is unplayable, but I've been testing all manner of control lists against zoo ranging from U/w, Esper, and Grixis to NLU and the matchup just seems unfavorable.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptpar11/fm15
Here's the list so far, sideboard is still under construction
4 Thrumming Bird
4 Phylactery Lich
Artifacts - 25
3 Voltaic Key
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Mox Opal
4 Contagion Clasp
4 Throne of Geth
3 Lux Cannon
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Black Sun's Zenith
Planeswalkers - 4
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Manabase - 20
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
8 Swamp
4 Island
3 Memoricide
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Phyrexian Crusader
5 ?
I was thinking about fitting in a land destruction package of Tec Edge and Spreading Seas between the main and side,
Any thoughts/suggesitons for this list? Seems like it has potential, especially since Aggro will probably get hated out pretty well with MBS
Scars of Mirrodin gave this deck some much needed additions which makes the deck much more viable imho.
Here's the list I've been playing with my testgroup
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Bramblewood Paragon
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
3 Chameleon Colossus
3 Nath of the Gilt-Leaf
Spells - 9
4 Thoughtseize
2 Profane Command
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
Manabase - 23
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
4 Mutavault
4 Twilight Mire
6 Forest
5 Swamp
4 Great Sable Stag
2 Cloudthresher
4 Doom Blade
2 Memoricide
3 Primal Command
I've fairly impressed with the deck so far since it packs a lot of Faerie and Jund hate.
My sideboard is tuned for my meta, and Primal Command could easily be replaced.
How is Joraga Warcaller working out for you? I'm really interested in seeing this deck succeed so keep us updated on how your testing is going.