The answer here, considering what decks we are up against, has to be Grave Titan.
For those who complain about the cost, you must understand that in a standard jund build (26 lands no ramp), the average amount of lands you will have on your turn 6 is 5.2 if you are on the play, and 5.65 if you are on the draw. This means that yes, you will often have to wait a turn longer than your physical turn 6 to cast a grave titan, but he is a bomb, and if you are rushing to cast him as soon as it is physically possible, that is usually incorrect.
Against many decks you need to play around counter magic, etc, so finding the opportune time to drop a grave titan is key, which will not usually be the second you have enough mana.
For those who are comparing Grave Titan and Broodmate Dragon, the pros and cons in a vacuum are these:
Broodmate Dragon:
-flying
-2 4/4 bodies
Grave Titan
-10 powerover 3 bodies
-if unanswered for even a turn, the power increases by 4 a turn.
However, the power of these cards is also very dependent on what you are playing against. In terms of cmc they are the same, so there is no comparison. However, in terms of color requirements, the grave titan is much easier to cast. Double of one color is statistically easier to have out then all three. Also, against any deck running spreading seas, the opponent will be working hard to eliminate a single, or even 2 of your colors if they can. They will not care if you get double of one color, it makes no sense for them to try to hold you to just one of each color, so Grave Titan is theoretically easier to cast through spreading seas.
The other massive benefit Broodmate Dragon has is flying, but ask yourself, what does flying accomplish? Very rarely will you be in a situation where if you can get one attack step in the air over your opponents massive board position, you will win. More often, however, you will be using the removal your deck is known for, and your 6 drop will be the most impressive creature in play by far, meaning that yes they can chump block the titan, but the token generation ends the game quickly.
Now, flying may come in handy on the defensive end, but the problem is, what are the fliers that you are worried about? Back in the day of vampire decks as well as sphinx of jwar isle more commonly in control, a broodmate dragon was great to block bloodwitches or sphinxes. Now, the only flier that sees significant play is baneslayer angel, a card that the broodmate dragon cannot even block. Also, grave titan is much better against destructive force decks, while I can think of no important matchup where the broodmate dragon is clearly superior.
Then it comes down to removal, what they have, and what it leaves you. If the opponent has a sweeper, the effect is either the same, or Grave Titan comes out on top. Day of judgment kills both equally well, consume the meek leaves the grave titan by itself, and leaves one of the 4/4 dragons. Destructive force kills broodmate completely while leaving Grave Titan standing.
If they have spot removal, they have 1 turn to use it to keep these bombs even remotely balanced. One kill spell (path, terminate, etc.) leaves Grave titan with 2 2/2's, while leaving Broodmate Dragon with a 4/4 flier. In this one instance, I would agree that Broodmate Dragon is superior, If you know that your opponent has exactly one piece of removal to use.
However, if the opponent has 2 pieces of removal, or equivalent (bit blast into terminate, etc.) Grave titan leaves a 2/2 while Broodmate dragon ceases to exist.
Now it comes to the power provided by these creatures. If the opponent doesnt have a sweper, and doesnt have spot removal, as we've discussed, it comes down to broodmate swinging for 8, 8, 8 - While Grave Titan swings for 10, 14, 18.
I leave the decision up to you, but it is quite clear to me, that while there are benefits to running either of these creatures, in roughly 75% of situations and matchups it is better to have Grave Titan.
I'm confused, people are saying we don't have the tools to answer earlier threats/ramp into knights/sovereigns etc. (like bolt). What is stopping you from playing bolt? My list runs 2 mountains (also to avoid seas) and a full set of bolt, with just 2 path main. This is especially good for the mirror. 4 path might have worked when people weren't on the lookout for this deck, but given its recent popularity, bolt for enemy walkers looks a lot better than paths in general.
Yeah, I've been a bit reluctant to play coup as well. It seems like the walkers, at least ajani and gideon, jace to an extent, can handle creatures, not to mention all the spot removal (I play some bolts in addition to paths) and our walls.
I cut the coups, they are an unnecessary finisher, and run 3 day main, 1 sideboard. Recently I have even debated the need for 4 in any matchup considering how much stalling, creature generation, and spot removal we have at our disposal.
I think that this deck is going to need to shift a bit more red to answer other decks, especially the mirror match. Think about how useful chandra is in the mirror, she comes down and pings opponents walkers twice, holding back any progress their walkers were making. This will cause ajani vengeant to be unable to lightning helix in many situations, or force jace into +2 rather than brainstorm, etc. Then she unleashes her ultimate, which either wins you the game, or destroys 98% of creatures and can kill a walker, or get them in bolt range.
That's right, this deck should definitely be playing bolt too. 4 path to exile was alright when the deck was introduced and people were unaware of it, now there will be the mirror to deal with (bolt>path against walkers), and bolt still handles a huge chunk of creatures.
This deck needs to find room for more red in it, to play against itself.
Okay well these ideas aren't necessarily new, just a return to some cards that have been dropped by the wayside. In much of my playtesting and FNM experience, I find that once either open the vaults/time sieve or jacerator get online and humming, around turn 4 or 5, there is next to nothing we can do other than hope they make a mistake or miscalculated how to "combo off."
Post ROE, I switched the jund charms in my sideboard to consume the meek (jund charm is a red source and a black source against white weenie, also fails once they drop honor of the pure). I figured it would be a more consistent sweeper, and it was, but not ever a complete blowout against most midrange decks where it only wipes a handful of creatures.
I have noticed a little recurrence of both time sieve and jacerator, and I am thinking that graveyard hate is going to be of a premium, considering we have it in the form of a utility card as it is, I am thinking of jund charm again.
Jund charm in response to open the vaults basically means you win the game.
Jund charm in response to the triggered ability of an eldrazi god as jacerator discards it at end of turn stops the reshuffle and puts them in danger of milling themself.
In this same way, I am thinking of running a single eldrazi sideboard in order to reshuffle against all forms of mill myself. I would use Ulamog, because in the off chance that you get to cast him really late game against jacerator after reshuffling, he blows up a jace/mine/font, and is impervious to day of judgment.
Not to mention, jund charm also hoses standard dredge if you run into any.
Just something to think about, I want to hear what others think about the subject.
yeah, that's what I mean. Level up has no flavour in it. It's OK they work together with D&D, but how this got through without adding flavour.... It's a mystery for me.
At least planeswalkers have loyalty counters. How bigger the loyalty, how better the spells they can play. That's flavour.
Level up sounds like I'm playing an RPG. This isn't a computergame! (ok, it's played as a computer game too, but you know what I mean)
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hmmm... yeah the abilities seem to match up with there being 2 planeswalkers. New sarkahn and whoever that dude in the blueish armor and the clear sky background is. My guess is a multicolor planeswalker, either UW or GW. Third instance of planeswalker must be either some sort of dedicated planeswalker removal/hindrance (seems narrow, but maybe if it was efficient enough to cast), or a card that references the card types, or permanent types.
I'm not saying they will or should, just that having the ability to fix your mana off of PtE is nice. Yes, the mountain can pose problems for playing turn 3 kicked gatekeeper, but that is only with the mountain in first 9 or 10 cards (about 16% of the time) with a gatekeeper also in the first 9 or 10 (about 60% chance. (the chance of both happening in the same game in the first 3 turns is about 9%, and of those games, you would have to have drawn EXACTLY 3 lands, any more would give you your 3 black sources automatically.
With 23-24 lands, there should be 2 lands every 5 cards, so 4 in the first 10 cards, the probability of getting less, but exactly 3, not 2 or less, makes it even more prohibitive. By my reasoning, actually having an opening hand that limits you from kicking gatekeeper turn 3 because of the mountain (not because of too few lands) is close to 2%. I think that this situation once every 50 or so games is not too big a price to pay for the added regularity of being able to play all of your red spells. Also, if you get such a hand, you can mulligan... The chances of a repeat hand are extremely slim.
The singleton mountain is very important. Very helpful to be able to grab red to fix your mana off of a PtE. I am very confused as to why people are complaining about the 1 of mountain for casting nocturnus consistently turn 4.
Nocturnus is 1BBB, and there is only 1 land in the deck that does not provide black. Therefore, you will ALWAYS be able to cast Nocturnus turn 4 if you hit 4 lands, no matter which lands they are (the exception being a ciptapped land on t4).
So wouldn't it make more sense to limit the instances of ciptapped lands like terramorphic expanse, and just run the singleton mountain along with 4 dragonskull and 4 lavaclaw?
PtE is in more decks than I care to name right now, and letting my opponent fix my mana is great.
BR vamps for me. I do not agree with people calling the manabase shaky. In comparison to jund, etc. the BR mana base is amazingly streamlined. Every land taps for black (at least in my build) so gatekeepers are never a problem, etc. There are anough red sources in there that I get one roughly every 6 cards, and the deck only needs a single red to play all of the splashed spells.
Blightning way easier to cast, way more effective than Mind Sludge(usually only have 3 cards by turn 5 when you cast sludge, I gladly take 3 damage and 2 cmc lower over 1 extra card)
Terminate destroys mono black spot removal.
Lightning bolt gives a great answer to great sable stag, white knight, devout lightcaster, etc.
I generally find that the deck runs more smoothly when I don't need to worry about having 4 mana for removal or 5 for discard.
(Btw, went 3-0-1 at most recent FNM, 2nd place out of 23 with BR Vamps)
I have been playing red splash vampires since ZDK, but I have noticed that once was not even a blip on our radar, kor firewalker can be a bit annoying just sitting there and gaining life. I agree that the removal gets an upgrade whether you are playing bolt, terminate, blast, slave of bolas, but none of it can hit the firewalker you just might see against UW control, so urge to feed certainly has a place.
Nope. Each one will see the other 4 entering same time. Which means all 5 will trigger 5 times each. In this case 5 vamps triggering 5 times each doing 5 dmg per trigger
You get 25 dmg per trigger * 5 triggers
If you don't believe me try it on magic online
You are incorrect. I think you are confusing the Bloodwitch trigger with allies. The Bloodwitch only triggers when it comes into play itself, not any time a vampire comes into play. They each trigger individually (5 triggers), and see all 5 in play upon resolution, making it 25 total.
This isn't a two horse race, people. There is plenty of draw out there that can be considered. I use a combination of courier's capsule and treasure hunt myself, but have certainly considered divination and mysteries.
Jace alone is the best draw engine in this deck, and once he is out and you are able to stabilize and use him for card advantage, the game should be looking in your favor. That being said, I value my draw on its efficiency and its ability to get me to jace, sweepers, etc.
because of efficiency, I have had a hard time justifying MotD because of 5 cmc. In terms of ability to get me to the cards I need (90% of the time these are nonland), I find that divination and courier's capsule, while they sometimes yield 0, or 1 nonland, can just as often get 2, where TH will undoubtedly always give 1.
I do not consider Jace as library manipulation when judging TH, because with jace out, using brainstorm ability, TH is largely irrelevant compared to that draw power. HD on the other hand IS great library manipulation, but there are only 4 of them. Without an HD to improve TH, I compare TH to a consistent draw 2.
The truth is (there is no way around this), without library manipulation in hand, a TH will sorcery speed cycle the majority of the time (nonland on top most likely, by percentage in the deck).
34/60 (depending on whats been drawn) it will be 1 card. If a land is on top, then 34/59 of those will yield just the 2 cards (-1 card for the land on top, still changes with what is in hand/been played). Multiply and find the probabilities, you will see that a blind TH will cycle 56.7% of the time, get 2 cards 24.97% of the time, and get 3 or more 18.3% of the time.
Therefore, without an HD in hand waiting, TH is:
Worse than Courier's capsule/Divination: 56.7% of the time,
The same: 25% of the time,
and Better only 18.3% of the time.
I don't know about you, but this analysis combined with revealing the cards, and only getting 1 nonland after all make me very hesitant to run 4 TH as my only draw engine into my threats sweeps and counters.
I find that any time I would cast TH and leave mana open to counter, I would rather play CC, and be able to crack it if there is nothing to counter. That is not to say I run 0 TH, I run 2 currently, as they can be very useful if depths reveals lands and no fetch is present, but I do not rely on them exclusively.
Yeah, I run sejiri refuge as well. Took out an arid mesa and a plains for two of them (same total number of white sources, more blue). I had to do this because I run more counters than the average build, also took out a chalice like you did, found that a bit more card draw (courier's capsule) performed better.
For those who complain about the cost, you must understand that in a standard jund build (26 lands no ramp), the average amount of lands you will have on your turn 6 is 5.2 if you are on the play, and 5.65 if you are on the draw. This means that yes, you will often have to wait a turn longer than your physical turn 6 to cast a grave titan, but he is a bomb, and if you are rushing to cast him as soon as it is physically possible, that is usually incorrect.
Against many decks you need to play around counter magic, etc, so finding the opportune time to drop a grave titan is key, which will not usually be the second you have enough mana.
For those who are comparing Grave Titan and Broodmate Dragon, the pros and cons in a vacuum are these:
Broodmate Dragon:
-flying
-2 4/4 bodies
Grave Titan
-10 powerover 3 bodies
-if unanswered for even a turn, the power increases by 4 a turn.
However, the power of these cards is also very dependent on what you are playing against. In terms of cmc they are the same, so there is no comparison. However, in terms of color requirements, the grave titan is much easier to cast. Double of one color is statistically easier to have out then all three. Also, against any deck running spreading seas, the opponent will be working hard to eliminate a single, or even 2 of your colors if they can. They will not care if you get double of one color, it makes no sense for them to try to hold you to just one of each color, so Grave Titan is theoretically easier to cast through spreading seas.
The other massive benefit Broodmate Dragon has is flying, but ask yourself, what does flying accomplish? Very rarely will you be in a situation where if you can get one attack step in the air over your opponents massive board position, you will win. More often, however, you will be using the removal your deck is known for, and your 6 drop will be the most impressive creature in play by far, meaning that yes they can chump block the titan, but the token generation ends the game quickly.
Now, flying may come in handy on the defensive end, but the problem is, what are the fliers that you are worried about? Back in the day of vampire decks as well as sphinx of jwar isle more commonly in control, a broodmate dragon was great to block bloodwitches or sphinxes. Now, the only flier that sees significant play is baneslayer angel, a card that the broodmate dragon cannot even block. Also, grave titan is much better against destructive force decks, while I can think of no important matchup where the broodmate dragon is clearly superior.
Then it comes down to removal, what they have, and what it leaves you. If the opponent has a sweeper, the effect is either the same, or Grave Titan comes out on top. Day of judgment kills both equally well, consume the meek leaves the grave titan by itself, and leaves one of the 4/4 dragons. Destructive force kills broodmate completely while leaving Grave Titan standing.
If they have spot removal, they have 1 turn to use it to keep these bombs even remotely balanced. One kill spell (path, terminate, etc.) leaves Grave titan with 2 2/2's, while leaving Broodmate Dragon with a 4/4 flier. In this one instance, I would agree that Broodmate Dragon is superior, If you know that your opponent has exactly one piece of removal to use.
However, if the opponent has 2 pieces of removal, or equivalent (bit blast into terminate, etc.) Grave titan leaves a 2/2 while Broodmate dragon ceases to exist.
Now it comes to the power provided by these creatures. If the opponent doesnt have a sweper, and doesnt have spot removal, as we've discussed, it comes down to broodmate swinging for 8, 8, 8 - While Grave Titan swings for 10, 14, 18.
I leave the decision up to you, but it is quite clear to me, that while there are benefits to running either of these creatures, in roughly 75% of situations and matchups it is better to have Grave Titan.
I cut the coups, they are an unnecessary finisher, and run 3 day main, 1 sideboard. Recently I have even debated the need for 4 in any matchup considering how much stalling, creature generation, and spot removal we have at our disposal.
That's right, this deck should definitely be playing bolt too. 4 path to exile was alright when the deck was introduced and people were unaware of it, now there will be the mirror to deal with (bolt>path against walkers), and bolt still handles a huge chunk of creatures.
This deck needs to find room for more red in it, to play against itself.
Post ROE, I switched the jund charms in my sideboard to consume the meek (jund charm is a red source and a black source against white weenie, also fails once they drop honor of the pure). I figured it would be a more consistent sweeper, and it was, but not ever a complete blowout against most midrange decks where it only wipes a handful of creatures.
I have noticed a little recurrence of both time sieve and jacerator, and I am thinking that graveyard hate is going to be of a premium, considering we have it in the form of a utility card as it is, I am thinking of jund charm again.
Jund charm in response to open the vaults basically means you win the game.
Jund charm in response to the triggered ability of an eldrazi god as jacerator discards it at end of turn stops the reshuffle and puts them in danger of milling themself.
In this same way, I am thinking of running a single eldrazi sideboard in order to reshuffle against all forms of mill myself. I would use Ulamog, because in the off chance that you get to cast him really late game against jacerator after reshuffling, he blows up a jace/mine/font, and is impervious to day of judgment.
Not to mention, jund charm also hoses standard dredge if you run into any.
Just something to think about, I want to hear what others think about the subject.
At least planeswalkers have loyalty counters. How bigger the loyalty, how better the spells they can play. That's flavour.
Level up sounds like I'm playing an RPG. This isn't a computergame! (ok, it's played as a computer game too, but you know what I mean)
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Are you here to complain about magic? then please stop playing magic.
- Pwned by his own sig...
With 23-24 lands, there should be 2 lands every 5 cards, so 4 in the first 10 cards, the probability of getting less, but exactly 3, not 2 or less, makes it even more prohibitive. By my reasoning, actually having an opening hand that limits you from kicking gatekeeper turn 3 because of the mountain (not because of too few lands) is close to 2%. I think that this situation once every 50 or so games is not too big a price to pay for the added regularity of being able to play all of your red spells. Also, if you get such a hand, you can mulligan... The chances of a repeat hand are extremely slim.
Nocturnus is 1BBB, and there is only 1 land in the deck that does not provide black. Therefore, you will ALWAYS be able to cast Nocturnus turn 4 if you hit 4 lands, no matter which lands they are (the exception being a ciptapped land on t4).
So wouldn't it make more sense to limit the instances of ciptapped lands like terramorphic expanse, and just run the singleton mountain along with 4 dragonskull and 4 lavaclaw?
PtE is in more decks than I care to name right now, and letting my opponent fix my mana is great.
Blightning way easier to cast, way more effective than Mind Sludge(usually only have 3 cards by turn 5 when you cast sludge, I gladly take 3 damage and 2 cmc lower over 1 extra card)
Terminate destroys mono black spot removal.
Lightning bolt gives a great answer to great sable stag, white knight, devout lightcaster, etc.
I generally find that the deck runs more smoothly when I don't need to worry about having 4 mana for removal or 5 for discard.
(Btw, went 3-0-1 at most recent FNM, 2nd place out of 23 with BR Vamps)
You are incorrect. I think you are confusing the Bloodwitch trigger with allies. The Bloodwitch only triggers when it comes into play itself, not any time a vampire comes into play. They each trigger individually (5 triggers), and see all 5 in play upon resolution, making it 25 total.
Jace alone is the best draw engine in this deck, and once he is out and you are able to stabilize and use him for card advantage, the game should be looking in your favor. That being said, I value my draw on its efficiency and its ability to get me to jace, sweepers, etc.
because of efficiency, I have had a hard time justifying MotD because of 5 cmc. In terms of ability to get me to the cards I need (90% of the time these are nonland), I find that divination and courier's capsule, while they sometimes yield 0, or 1 nonland, can just as often get 2, where TH will undoubtedly always give 1.
I do not consider Jace as library manipulation when judging TH, because with jace out, using brainstorm ability, TH is largely irrelevant compared to that draw power. HD on the other hand IS great library manipulation, but there are only 4 of them. Without an HD to improve TH, I compare TH to a consistent draw 2.
The truth is (there is no way around this), without library manipulation in hand, a TH will sorcery speed cycle the majority of the time (nonland on top most likely, by percentage in the deck).
34/60 (depending on whats been drawn) it will be 1 card. If a land is on top, then 34/59 of those will yield just the 2 cards (-1 card for the land on top, still changes with what is in hand/been played). Multiply and find the probabilities, you will see that a blind TH will cycle 56.7% of the time, get 2 cards 24.97% of the time, and get 3 or more 18.3% of the time.
Therefore, without an HD in hand waiting, TH is:
Worse than Courier's capsule/Divination: 56.7% of the time,
The same: 25% of the time,
and Better only 18.3% of the time.
I don't know about you, but this analysis combined with revealing the cards, and only getting 1 nonland after all make me very hesitant to run 4 TH as my only draw engine into my threats sweeps and counters.
I find that any time I would cast TH and leave mana open to counter, I would rather play CC, and be able to crack it if there is nothing to counter. That is not to say I run 0 TH, I run 2 currently, as they can be very useful if depths reveals lands and no fetch is present, but I do not rely on them exclusively.