Some thoughts I'm having here.
Gideon: Definitely a possiblity. Wouldn't run him as more than a 1 of.
Counterspells: I don't think there are many great counterspells in this format. Certainly nothing equivalent to Mana Leak (imo). As such I think a focus on removing things from the board is more relevant. Basic gameplan should be to purge the board with fire and supreme verdicts while building up your planeswalkers.
Purphoros: Hmm. I think he might fit in just through is interaction with elspeth. 6 damage to the dome a turn is a wincon in itself. Also with Planeswalkers you just have to stick one reckoner or dragon to turn him into a creature. Then his pump ability also puts in work.
Reckoner: Reckoner works very nice with Anger of the Gods, turning it into deal 3 to each creature and your opponent. I think he is good enough to fit in here. But maybe not. Also his mana cost makes him almost essential for turning on Purphosos.
Steam Augury: Just completely unsure how successful this card will turn out to be. It might be better off turning into Sphinx's Revelation 3 and something else.
Umm... that's about it. Any comments?
EDIT: Oh and one thing I think is so powerful about this superfriends deck is the card draw provided by chandra and jace. scrying along with card draw will prove excellent for controlling games.
Also You should run the full set of scry lands. Drop a plains as I did over a mountain for the reason you stated but scry is way too powerful an effect for a control deck to pass up. I also don't believe Omenspeaker to be good enough. Don't fool yourself this is no Wall of Omens or Wall of Blossoms however much they want you to believe so.
If I had one other comment to make It is that I think If it fits into any deck, Swan Song can belong here. With a potential eight wraths, Magma Jet, Ral Zarek and Jace I don't think the downside is so terrible.
I think the red god Is much better then the gauntlet. The same sort of effect except onv creatures instead of spells. Also I think you should run more control. And probably an aetherling. Also as much as I like the Phoenix she is better in Mono colored aggro or midrange. Superfriends is in general a control deck. So personally I think you should be splashing white for elspeth. Who alsoworks wonders with the red god.
so my thoughts on the decklist
- 3 chandras phoenix
-3 staticaster
-1 codex shredder
+2 Stormbreath dragon
+2 aetherling
+3 Elspeth
-2blast of genius +2 opportunity/sphinx revelation
-2 trading post -2 ratchet bomb +4 supreme verdict
-2 pyromancers gauntlet +2 purphosos god of the forge.
Not sure about the last one. My thoughts are he works very well with elspeth. Also between ral chandra and the dragons hitting devotion isnt impossible. I also think that adding a playset of boros reckoner is very feasible. When you anger of the gods you hit your opponent for 6 to the dome. And he makes getting phusphors online an inevitably instead of an unlikely event.
Chained to the rocks and detention sphere are possibilities as well.
I know this might not be the response your looking for but I think a return of American Superfriends is possible. I think control has a lot of options in these colors. I also think your decklist was subpar. So anyways these are my thoughts and contributions. I'd mock up a decklist but I'm at work.
... I didn't think about Burning Earth. Although with green and white we should be able to board in answers. I'm saddened Abrupt Decay doesn't answer it. makes me consider dropping it from the list entirely. Very good point to bring up, although to be fair most 3 color decks run 5-7 basics at most.
I also agree that it might be greedy. I'm basically thinking two things here with the splash.
1. The red god only costs 1 red, so not to hard to splash in.
2. Boros Reckoner can be paid with white or red so I feel like there shouldn't be any problems hitting the right colors to drop him.
I'm definitely going to try it though. Like you said it'll be fun at the very least
I've really been wondering if we could do a red splash. I'm considering seeing if the deck is playable just to bring in the red god enchantment. Purphoros pings when a creature enters the battlefield which combos really well with reanimator, and seems made to combo with ghost council. splashing red also makes Boros Reckoner playable. which makes transforming the god possible.
If we are splashing red I think Aurelia, the Warleader is an awesome finisher. Sling her in and you get two attack phases? that's basically doubling the usage on the whip. I think the list looks good but anyone have any opinions?
EDIT: I also meant to mention he pumps which is very nice as well. Here is my question, should I cut some of the removal to make room for more creatures? I was thinking of running the gatekeeper just to help stabilize mana but... I am really unsure. Also being able to fit in more toolbox creatures or various things. Might be able to fit in Ghor-Clan rampager. You can discard him for his effect and be able to bring him back.
So I tried to make a deck that is as simple and straightforward as possible.
Creatures
When you play Reanimator the big question is what to play because you have so many late game, game changing options. With a ton of great options I went with this sleek look I have here.
Elvish Mystic, Sylvan Carytid: Mana ramp, pretty essential when you run green.
Pharika's Mender: People have already pointed this one out, but it is the only recursion we have for getting the whip back. It does all right on it's own, and using it to bring creatures to your hand isn't the worst play.
Desecration Demon, Shadowborn Demon: I am running these to help keep the board clear more than anything else. They are backup to Obz(the real finisher) and allow you to race very well. Desecration Demon in particular is a favorite of mine, it is playable as a 5 mana enchantment that reads at the beginning of your upkeep Target player sacrifices a creature.
Obzedat, Ghost Council: He works very well with the whip. Everyone knows that, and that is why i'm running him as my only finisher.
Engine:
There are a couple choices when it comes to card draw, but I think CtG's and Grisly Salvage are pretty much the best options.
Whip of Erebos: The recursion engine. Works great to bring back Shadowborn, and of course combos extraordinarily well with the Ghost Council.
Grisly Salvage: Helps you landfix early or mana ramp. Digging 5 deep helps you find all kinds of goodies and cards in the graveyard aren't that bad in this deck.
Commune with the Gods: Gets you your whip which is very nice. Throws more cards to the graveyard.
Planeswalker: There are a couple of options here between Elspeth, Vraska and Liliana.
Vraska the Unseen: The removal is why I chose her. She is a very removal based card.
Spells: I'm basically running nothing but kill spells. I think I'll sideboard discard for control matchups, I don't see them being neccesary in the main. This is the part of my deck with the most flex room though. If there is enough creature form creature removal the spells might not even be neccesary.
I wouldn't run the hammer at all. Muster the Legion brings tokens in with haste, and that isn't comparable to a +1/+1 bonus in the least. And the Spear has spot removal. I really like the idea though. I think it has potential. Boros tokens with Elspeth and the Red god as finishers.
Yea like honestly you guys are still arguing about it as though there is any other answer than its bad. This comboing with Ashen Rider is twice as bad asVenser, the Sojourner and Spine of Ish Sah, And that never saw play either. Bad card is bad. It's inefficient and it's abilities lend to it sitting there doing a bunch of nothing.
Idk I was really excited when I saw that Centaur. I could just think "Wow". Target it with giant growth? 9/9 until end of turn. Opponents can't lightning bolt it, And it plays so well with cards like Artful Dodge or Distortion Strike Unblockable swing six. T2 Unblockable swing nine. No one else seems to think it's even playable in standard which makes me a sad person It isn't like there are a lack of good cards to activate heroic in this case. Any combat tricks work. Selesnya Charm and Simic Charm are both great.
It also seems to be a great finisher for gr aggro. Can you imagine your opponents face when you shock your own creature to push damage through?
But idk maybe it isn't as good as I think. I'm torn on this card.
This card is really bad haha. It takes three turns before you are able to exile anything, and once you can exile things you either get a momentary blink effect or you or an opponent get to draw cards.
Best case scenario for the beautiful ladies: T1: Enter the field and wait around doing nothing. T2: Tap her to put a fate counter on herself and then do nothing. T3 Exile this bad card and draw two good ones hopefully. Although if your running her it's doubtful you have anything good in your deck.
This card comes with one caveat and that is that maybe wizards prints more cards that interact with fate counters. Something I think would have been really cool is if hero cards entered the battle with fate counters on them. Then when they die to removal you just tap your fates and draw cards off of them. THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN AWESOME!
Lets be very honest here, In a vacuum this card is probably one of the worst rares printed in the new set. 4 mana 3/3 in two colors, has no ETB effect, No triggered effect, and 3 tap effects. It takes 3 turns to do anything relevant and even then most of the stuff it does is useless. (Force an opponent to exile his creature! AWESOME! They draw 2! AWESOME! Right? Right guys? Guys?)
ATTENTION: For every single standard player in this thread saying they don't understand how this is good (or comparing it to Bellows Lizard for christ's sake) don't seem to understand how this game is played. Maybe stop voicing your opinion for a second and try and think of why people WOULD play this.
This card is for aggro decks. In an aggro deck the playability of a card is determined by it's mana cost and it's P/T. Aggro doesn't want cards over 4 mana. And they don't want cards under 1 Power. (In most cases for both of those statements) A 2/1 or 2/2 For 1 is NECESSARY for aggro decks to even see play. In fact it is these cards that entire aggro decks are built around. And life loss is inevitable for RDW's. Once you decide to play aggro you better strap on your seatbelt and make sure your Man card is up to date because the race is on. And if you want to come out victorious you better make sure that your opponent is constantly getting smacked in the dome every turn.
So to compare this to other 2P 1Mana cards that saw standard play.
As you can see here the theme isn't so much have 2 power, it's can you get at least 2 power? Goblin Guide has a substanial drawback of course, And Steppe Lynx forces you to take more damage through running fetch lands, which in turn allows you to do more damage so thats gravy. Kird Ape and Wild Nactal's downsides involve.... Destabilized mana bases? But as usual the Good outweighs the bad. That's why any serious Red deck wins will run this card. because it isn't great, It's just great at bringing pain. To all involved.
You won't play it over Negate in standard and won't play it over Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm in legacy
I really hate hour much love everyone seems to go Negate. My entire magic career Negate had been a borderline unplayable card. And people like the difference between a 1cc and a 2cc is allt the difference in the world. And people will side This in against spell Pierce
As I already mentioned I actually quite like this card and see it as primarily filling a role as a protection counter for combo decks (mainly in older formats since they have more/better combo decks). However I think that you are severely underestimating the drawback of giving an opponent a 2/2 flying creature. Particularly in standard but also to some extent in modern and legacy a 2/2 flying creature is a legitimate threat and unlike a 1/1 flying token or 2/2 flight-less token it is something that is actually equivalent to or better than costing an extra card (opponent draws or you discard) as a drawback.
As for it's place in standard, this is in no way a "god hoser", yes, it is better to give an opponent the token than to let them have a God in play but the simple fact is that the Gods all cost 3+ mana and with the importance of costing only 1cc being lower in standard it can't compete with Negate for usefulness as a sideboard counterspell. Negate for only 1 more mana (still very solid at 2cc) has no drawbacks and can also hit relevant Artifact and/or Planeswalker spells.
Hmm maybe the difference here is you are seeing it as a sideboard card where I'm seeing it as main deck worthy. That could be very dumb of me but time will tell after we see what decks shake out post rotation. And tbh I am nota fan of Negate in almost any format. I like being able to cast 2 drops on turn 3 and 3 drops on turn 4 etc. Leaving 2 mana up gimps me too often. But tbh I think this card has alot of potential. Another thing isi don't think it would have been printed as is outside of theros. Just a rather strange combination of choices with enchantments Instants and Sorceries.
This card is okay. Situational but okay. The only thing (and I usually don't complain about rarity) is that it is rare. It's power is dramatically below the rare slot. To me this is a common or uncommon for sure. I know, it's useless in draft which is probably why they put it at rare slot so it wouldn't clog up packs in drafts but I'm going to hate opening this up, because power-wise, it's so much weaker in a vacuum than even the trash rares would be. Dissolve would fit better in this rare slot than Swan Song would imho.
Excited to see this in foil though.
How is this useless in Draft? I'd anything the opposite is true and they printed it at rare so someone can't draft 4 and hose bestow. This isa bomb rare against bestow
As I already mentioned I actually quite like this card and see it as primarily filling a role as a protection counter for combo decks (mainly in older formats since they have more/better combo decks). However I think that you are severely underestimating the drawback of giving an opponent a 2/2 flying creature. Particularly in standard but also to some extent in modern and legacy a 2/2 flying creature is a legitimate threat and unlike a 1/1 flying token or 2/2 flight-less token it is something that is actually equivalent to or better than costing an extra card (opponent draws or you discard) as a drawback.
As for it's place in standard, this is in no way a "god hoser", yes, it is better to give an opponent the token than to let them have a God in play but the simple fact is that the Gods all cost 3+ mana and with the importance of costing only 1cc being lower in standard it can't compete with Negate for usefulness as a sideboard counterspell. Negate for only 1 more mana (still very solid at 2cc) has no drawbacks and can also hit relevant Artifact and/or Planeswalker spells.
I am in no way underestimating this card. in my opinion you are all overestimating it. It's no worse than pongify which gave a 3/3 and still saw play. I think they are both representative of control and how it is played. What is the difference between this card and browbeat? you have the control and you make situational choices each and every game that you play. The 2/2 flyer is only going to hit the board when you deem it appropriate. And this card has tech oozing off of it. Someone was speaking earlier about how using this to counter your counter is a terrible idea because you lose two cards for little gain. That is of course false again. Because this card could be read two ways. As the counter spell or as a 1 mana flash flying 2/2. Granted that is unlikely to happen in standard now but imagine if this was printed while cawblade was around. A theoretical situation. You oblivion ring naming a creature they sac in response. You can let it go and your o ring hits the field all useless or you seize the opportunity counter it get your flyer blade up and start swinging. Fringe case at best but I know every magic player has at least one experience in a night of gaming where someone sacs in response or counters or hexproofs or does something else stupid to counter your play. In a deck that needs evasive bodies the double play might be enough. In a case like this it fills the same role as a man land.
I rambled for a bit there but my basic point is any card that gives you options is never bad.
So the decklist I think is reasonably competitive (without having seen the metagame evolve yet) would be something like this.
2 Aetherling
1 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Boros Reckoner
Planeswalkers 10
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Ral Zarek
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge
Spells 18
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Chained to the Rocks
3 Magma Jet
2 Detention Sphere
2 Steam Augury
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Steam Vents
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mountains
3 Islands
2 Plains
Some thoughts I'm having here.
Gideon: Definitely a possiblity. Wouldn't run him as more than a 1 of.
Counterspells: I don't think there are many great counterspells in this format. Certainly nothing equivalent to Mana Leak (imo). As such I think a focus on removing things from the board is more relevant. Basic gameplan should be to purge the board with fire and supreme verdicts while building up your planeswalkers.
Purphoros: Hmm. I think he might fit in just through is interaction with elspeth. 6 damage to the dome a turn is a wincon in itself. Also with Planeswalkers you just have to stick one reckoner or dragon to turn him into a creature. Then his pump ability also puts in work.
Reckoner: Reckoner works very nice with Anger of the Gods, turning it into deal 3 to each creature and your opponent. I think he is good enough to fit in here. But maybe not. Also his mana cost makes him almost essential for turning on Purphosos.
Steam Augury: Just completely unsure how successful this card will turn out to be. It might be better off turning into Sphinx's Revelation 3 and something else.
Umm... that's about it. Any comments?
EDIT: Oh and one thing I think is so powerful about this superfriends deck is the card draw provided by chandra and jace. scrying along with card draw will prove excellent for controlling games.
Also You should run the full set of scry lands. Drop a plains as I did over a mountain for the reason you stated but scry is way too powerful an effect for a control deck to pass up. I also don't believe Omenspeaker to be good enough. Don't fool yourself this is no Wall of Omens or Wall of Blossoms however much they want you to believe so.
If I had one other comment to make It is that I think If it fits into any deck, Swan Song can belong here. With a potential eight wraths, Magma Jet, Ral Zarek and Jace I don't think the downside is so terrible.
so my thoughts on the decklist
- 3 chandras phoenix
-3 staticaster
-1 codex shredder
+2 Stormbreath dragon
+2 aetherling
+3 Elspeth
-2blast of genius +2 opportunity/sphinx revelation
-2 trading post -2 ratchet bomb +4 supreme verdict
-2 pyromancers gauntlet +2 purphosos god of the forge.
Not sure about the last one. My thoughts are he works very well with elspeth. Also between ral chandra and the dragons hitting devotion isnt impossible. I also think that adding a playset of boros reckoner is very feasible. When you anger of the gods you hit your opponent for 6 to the dome. And he makes getting phusphors online an inevitably instead of an unlikely event.
Chained to the rocks and detention sphere are possibilities as well.
I know this might not be the response your looking for but I think a return of American Superfriends is possible. I think control has a lot of options in these colors. I also think your decklist was subpar. So anyways these are my thoughts and contributions. I'd mock up a decklist but I'm at work.
I also agree that it might be greedy. I'm basically thinking two things here with the splash.
1. The red god only costs 1 red, so not to hard to splash in.
2. Boros Reckoner can be paid with white or red so I feel like there shouldn't be any problems hitting the right colors to drop him.
I'm definitely going to try it though. Like you said it'll be fun at the very least
So here is another list I'm thinking of.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Cartodid
3 Desecration Demon
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Pharika's Mender
1 Shadowborn Demon
3 Boros Reckoner
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
3 Whip of Erebos
2 Phusporos, God of the Forge
Sorcery 4
4 Commune with the Gods
Instant 9
4 Grisly Salvage
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Abrupt Decay
Land 22
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Silence
4 Stomping Grounds
3 Temple Garden
3 Godless Shrine
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple of Abandon
If we are splashing red I think Aurelia, the Warleader is an awesome finisher. Sling her in and you get two attack phases? that's basically doubling the usage on the whip. I think the list looks good but anyone have any opinions?
EDIT: I also meant to mention he pumps which is very nice as well. Here is my question, should I cut some of the removal to make room for more creatures? I was thinking of running the gatekeeper just to help stabilize mana but... I am really unsure. Also being able to fit in more toolbox creatures or various things. Might be able to fit in Ghor-Clan rampager. You can discard him for his effect and be able to bring him back.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Carytid
4 Desecration Demon
3 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Pharika's Mender
2 Shadowborn Demon
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Commune with the Gods
4 Whip of Erebos
Planeswalker
2 Vraska, The Unseen
Removal 7
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Temple Garden
4 Godless Shrine
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Silence
5 Forest
1 Swamp
So I tried to make a deck that is as simple and straightforward as possible.
Creatures
When you play Reanimator the big question is what to play because you have so many late game, game changing options. With a ton of great options I went with this sleek look I have here.
Elvish Mystic, Sylvan Carytid: Mana ramp, pretty essential when you run green.
Pharika's Mender: People have already pointed this one out, but it is the only recursion we have for getting the whip back. It does all right on it's own, and using it to bring creatures to your hand isn't the worst play.
Desecration Demon, Shadowborn Demon: I am running these to help keep the board clear more than anything else. They are backup to Obz(the real finisher) and allow you to race very well. Desecration Demon in particular is a favorite of mine, it is playable as a 5 mana enchantment that reads at the beginning of your upkeep Target player sacrifices a creature.
Obzedat, Ghost Council: He works very well with the whip. Everyone knows that, and that is why i'm running him as my only finisher.
Engine:
There are a couple choices when it comes to card draw, but I think CtG's and Grisly Salvage are pretty much the best options.
Whip of Erebos: The recursion engine. Works great to bring back Shadowborn, and of course combos extraordinarily well with the Ghost Council.
Grisly Salvage: Helps you landfix early or mana ramp. Digging 5 deep helps you find all kinds of goodies and cards in the graveyard aren't that bad in this deck.
Commune with the Gods: Gets you your whip which is very nice. Throws more cards to the graveyard.
Planeswalker:
There are a couple of options here between Elspeth, Vraska and Liliana.
Vraska the Unseen: The removal is why I chose her. She is a very removal based card.
Spells:
I'm basically running nothing but kill spells. I think I'll sideboard discard for control matchups, I don't see them being neccesary in the main. This is the part of my deck with the most flex room though. If there is enough creature form creature removal the spells might not even be neccesary.
Hero's Downfall: Kills planeswalkers. Kills creatures.
Abrupt Decay: Lots of targets, Helps slow down aggro.
It also seems to be a great finisher for gr aggro. Can you imagine your opponents face when you shock your own creature to push damage through?
But idk maybe it isn't as good as I think. I'm torn on this card.
Best case scenario for the beautiful ladies: T1: Enter the field and wait around doing nothing. T2: Tap her to put a fate counter on herself and then do nothing. T3 Exile this bad card and draw two good ones hopefully. Although if your running her it's doubtful you have anything good in your deck.
This card comes with one caveat and that is that maybe wizards prints more cards that interact with fate counters. Something I think would have been really cool is if hero cards entered the battle with fate counters on them. Then when they die to removal you just tap your fates and draw cards off of them. THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN AWESOME!
Lets be very honest here, In a vacuum this card is probably one of the worst rares printed in the new set. 4 mana 3/3 in two colors, has no ETB effect, No triggered effect, and 3 tap effects. It takes 3 turns to do anything relevant and even then most of the stuff it does is useless. (Force an opponent to exile his creature! AWESOME! They draw 2! AWESOME! Right? Right guys? Guys?)
This card is for aggro decks. In an aggro deck the playability of a card is determined by it's mana cost and it's P/T. Aggro doesn't want cards over 4 mana. And they don't want cards under 1 Power. (In most cases for both of those statements) A 2/1 or 2/2 For 1 is NECESSARY for aggro decks to even see play. In fact it is these cards that entire aggro decks are built around. And life loss is inevitable for RDW's. Once you decide to play aggro you better strap on your seatbelt and make sure your Man card is up to date because the race is on. And if you want to come out victorious you better make sure that your opponent is constantly getting smacked in the dome every turn.
So to compare this to other 2P 1Mana cards that saw standard play.
As you can see here the theme isn't so much have 2 power, it's can you get at least 2 power? Goblin Guide has a substanial drawback of course, And Steppe Lynx forces you to take more damage through running fetch lands, which in turn allows you to do more damage so thats gravy. Kird Ape and Wild Nactal's downsides involve.... Destabilized mana bases? But as usual the Good outweighs the bad. That's why any serious Red deck wins will run this card. because it isn't great, It's just great at bringing pain. To all involved.
I really hate hour much love everyone seems to go Negate. My entire magic career Negate had been a borderline unplayable card. And people like the difference between a 1cc and a 2cc is allt the difference in the world. And people will side This in against spell Pierce
Hmm maybe the difference here is you are seeing it as a sideboard card where I'm seeing it as main deck worthy. That could be very dumb of me but time will tell after we see what decks shake out post rotation. And tbh I am nota fan of Negate in almost any format. I like being able to cast 2 drops on turn 3 and 3 drops on turn 4 etc. Leaving 2 mana up gimps me too often. But tbh I think this card has alot of potential. Another thing isi don't think it would have been printed as is outside of theros. Just a rather strange combination of choices with enchantments Instants and Sorceries.
How is this useless in Draft? I'd anything the opposite is true and they printed it at rare so someone can't draft 4 and hose bestow. This isa bomb rare against bestow
I am in no way underestimating this card. in my opinion you are all overestimating it. It's no worse than pongify which gave a 3/3 and still saw play. I think they are both representative of control and how it is played. What is the difference between this card and browbeat? you have the control and you make situational choices each and every game that you play. The 2/2 flyer is only going to hit the board when you deem it appropriate. And this card has tech oozing off of it. Someone was speaking earlier about how using this to counter your counter is a terrible idea because you lose two cards for little gain. That is of course false again. Because this card could be read two ways. As the counter spell or as a 1 mana flash flying 2/2. Granted that is unlikely to happen in standard now but imagine if this was printed while cawblade was around. A theoretical situation. You oblivion ring naming a creature they sac in response. You can let it go and your o ring hits the field all useless or you seize the opportunity counter it get your flyer blade up and start swinging. Fringe case at best but I know every magic player has at least one experience in a night of gaming where someone sacs in response or counters or hexproofs or does something else stupid to counter your play. In a deck that needs evasive bodies the double play might be enough. In a case like this it fills the same role as a man land.
I rambled for a bit there but my basic point is any card that gives you options is never bad.