One thing I wanted try against control is Whispering Madness, instead of Bloodgift Demon. It isn't a creature, but you get the card draw, fill the yard, and disrupt their hand. Even if you draw one extra off of it, you still get the other benefits.
Until they board sweep and you have no creatures in play and the counter is stuck in your hand. Then you will be like why?! You already have the Essence Harvest that needs a creature in play or its a dead card, then you need a creature in play for the Spell Rupture.
No not really. Not unless I haven't drawn into more then 3 land drops in a game and didn't have a shaman. Besides the multicolor cards there isn't any other double color mana cost besides Desecration Demon.
If you have access to some Pack Rat. Try it. Having a new creature every turn against a Naya or Gruul deck is good. If left will ingest the battlefield.
Had done rough games just now against WUR delver and a mid range.
Doesn't it bother that you don't have a lot of removal/control in your MB/SB?
Bloodgift Demon & Pack Rat, these picks I'm really sceptical about. The Demon got already discussed, but why the rats?? They look really weak with no synergy
I'm glad you asked
Guild Mage is like my pseudo drain life 5 and 6 and has been clutch for his reach that it can grant you. It is only a good utility creature that's why I run only 2. Paired with the multiple mill outlets it sometimes can do some work and provide those last couple of points of damage. He even works when the opponent sweeps the board, you can make them lose a couple points for losing his own creatures and the sorrel played itself, which is a stretch, but I have done it once to drain them 5 life in a turn.
I don't think 1 for 1 spot removal is good in these colors to many situational ones. I have Abrupt Decay at least to fend off pesky artifacts and enchantments that UB alone cannot handle. The only artifact that can alone shut the deck down and currently can't handle is Witchbane Orb because it artifact and over 3 cmc. Even Golgari Charm only deals with RiP, but that can also save you from a board sweep. A neat story: I'm playing against Junk tokens deck that had Parallel Lives, which I lost game one. Game two
I bring in the charm. Turn 5 I had 3 Pack Rat tokens, Deathrite Shaman, and Phantasm in play. He has PLives, Sorin plus emblem, 4 spirits,10 humans just cast along with Intangible Virtue. EoT I Abrupt Decay the IntVirtue and Charm for -1/-1 to nuke his while team. Next turn I seeing with three rats at 4/4 now, the Phantasm, and drain with Shaman for Lethal damage. It was epic.
This leads to my sideboard. Barter in Blood is the only extra removal I play because it is an effective 2 for 1, yet situational. It coil be a one sided Wrath and can remove Boros Reckoner safely. It beats a Restoration Angel and beats hexproof or protection ability. Yet again this doesn't beat a Witchbane Orb. I use this to slow down the super fast aggro decks.
Threat density is important. Especially, against a control deck. Keeping up with the card draw is also important. Bloodgift Demon helps you. You can not not play it because of removal. It provides an extra card to offset the removal and their own SphinxRev some. It also flutes and 5 power for Essence Harvest and blocks Restoration Angel all day. This comes in for the WoP6 against control.
Pack Rat is a good creature. You can't look at it as a two drop. You have to leave the mana open unless in a pinch. When in play it is card advantage. Return you get to draw a card see what it is...say it is a late game mind sculpt or an 8TH UNNECESSARY land? Make it a rat. At worst every turn you have a chance of making a Champion of the Parish. All for one card. So a Supreme Verdict is basically a 1 for 1. Any spot removal will have to destroy both, if you are tapped out. Effectively, making a 2 for 1 in your favor. I bring this in against control and tokens to replace Wight of Precinct Six, since they run few creatures. I bring this in against a midrange control build for the guildmages and a single WoP6 since they are more fragile or slow.
Yeah going with the Aggro aspect I'm not concerned with double mill triggers. Anything more then 15/15 is win more. Unless going in for a drain life, but I still think that should suffice between that shock land and combat damage.
Jarad and Fling are neat, but I will not splash a fourth color. I also will not ruin my board state for damage. I don't use Soul's Harvest. I feel Essence Harvest is the only cards in that deck that actually needs a creature in play to be useful(I don't mean a shaman, I mean a beefcake critter) and the only one that should be.
Any questions or comments about any card choices on main deck or sideboard cards are welcome.
I just added the Rogue's Passage tonight, which was another Drownyard before. Many games I found my self casting Consuming Abberation on turn 4 or turn 5 and the ground is clogged up, even when a turn 6 WoP6 comes into play. The Rogue's Passage will come in handy because I needed a way to also get through Boros Reckoner without dealing myself 38 damage. I didn't feel like wasting a card slot for a single Artful Dodge to get two uses from it when Rogue's Passage can get me many uses if your needed. I haven't seen the lone land yet in a game, but I will let you how it fairs.
I also removed Urban Evolution. It diluted the threat density. I'm going for the lifegain will make me last another turn to draw me a card approach for now.
@Blitz Glimpse and Mind sculpt in the same standard would be funny. I said before the deck needed some way of prolonging into the middle of the game, especially against aggro. That's why I like green splash for the life gain and Deathrite Shaman also provides reach and is a mana dork at heart. Green splash also enables a way of dealing with artifacts and enchantments like Rest in Peace or Witchbane Orb.
I will save this to post my current list to update my older post when i get home.
Well I just played against an Esper control deck that had some mill cards like Grisly Spectacle, Psychic Strike Thought Scour and Aberration. It also ran Alms Beast Priest of Penance Verdict and Sphinx of Revelation. It was pretty strong. I won 2-1, but his deck was very synergistic. I also saw Ultimate Price Mind Crush multiple Charm Snapcaster Mage and Gideon.
Game 1 I had him down to 4 life and 6 cards in library., until he verdict and i went into top deck mode for three turns 2 land and essence harvest against his Alms Beast and Abberation. I won game 2 because of the reach from Shaman and Essence Harvest with a Desecration Demon in play, which i never would have drawn if not for Urban Evolution. I win game 3 because of Bloodgift Demon and Pack Rat from the sideboard.
The night went like this:
Game 2
B/R Vampires 2-1
First game I milled him to 5 creatures in his GY, and played 2 WoP6. he died on turn 6
I lost game two to a poor choice on my part (forgot to flashback Dream twist on turn 3, so couldnt drop phantasms and got no more mill cards. lesson learned, don't forget to flashback)
Dominated Game 3 with a 28/28 essence harvest aberration. Sheltering Word saved the Aberations life thanks to Deathrite Shaman mana fixing for it
Game 2
BW Orzhov extort 2-0
First game I started with a perfect hand (Dream twist, 2 Phantasms, Mind Sculpt, 2 Watery Grave 1 Breeding pool. And drew into a Essence Harvest and THought Scour) . He died on turn 4 (T1, dream, T2, double phantasm, T3 sculpt swing for 10, T4 Thought Scour, Essence harvest for 5 and swing for 10)
Second game he stalled out on land and died to a desecration Demon
Game 3
Boros - 2-1
First Game got stalled up with creatures, managed to mill him out completely
Second game I had a good hand minus land colours, 2 scour, 2 sculpt, 1 phantasm, Swamp, Tomb; figured I'd draw into a :symu:...but didn't I shouldn't have kept it
Third game stalled out a bit, he all in'd had me to 5 health, I had a sheltering word but no green mana. I had a 23/23 Aberration. Which I swung with, thinking he had no defenders (all in last turn) forgetting the two dice on the table were 1/1 tokens. Lost me the game. He chumped me and managed to do just enough damage to kill me next turn. The kicker? my next card was a Essence Harvest. Lesson learned? use real tokens or cards as tokens, not dice.
Game 4
GW token life gain 2-1
First game I lost due to not having played this style of deck and him having 5 tokens and pulling Akroma's Memorial
the second game went better with a SB in of my negates and appetite for brains, I managed to stop all his populating cards, hammering him to death with my Phantasms
Third game he got mana starved, I managed to have two 5/5 phantasms by turn 5. Hit for 10 unblockable on turn 5, then flashback on both phantasm's for 10 more the following turn
Deck changes:
-1 Swamp
-1 island
+1 Overgrown Tomb
+1 Breeding Pool
-3 Paranoid Delusions
+2 Abrupt Decay (MD)
+1 Island
+2 Golgari Charm (SB)
The Charm I am adding because there are a lot of 4cmc enchants coming into my Meta, and a few bored wipe spells. Adding a 22'nd land for next time I play as one or to games I had only JUST enough land, or would sit on 4 land with no 5th for the Aberration
Yeah I think getting to that 5th land drop is really important. I think you are creature light though. Removing Paranoid Delusions was good. Sucks running an Abberation into a Boros Reckoner sucks, so Abrupt Decay will help. I think 9 Mill spells might be good. I'm running 8 (thought scour, mind sculpt), but I feel I want another one. I may change to 4 Dream Twist and 1 Mind Sculpt. 3 Essence Harvest seems where its at. Having too many cards relying on having a decent sized creature in play can make for too many dead cards. Abrupt Decay mainboard is essential. You need some sort of wide range removal. The card I have had trouble with most recently is Witch bane orb. Not being able to target them shuts down half of our deck.
well for me urban evolution is a no because at 3UB on turn 5 we should be laying down our main win con critter rather than ramping into something else. if this was a ramp deck and we could do that trick on say turn 2 - 3 reliably, then you maybe onto something. as this isn't and our main win con is the same casting cost, i just don't see the usefulness.
bloodgift demon is a 3BB that gives our opponent card advantage. yes it takes off a life, but that's going to be nothing compared to a bant deck that could go turn 2 centaur healer, turn 4 thragtusk and turn 7 sphinx's revelation for 10. i just simply do not like giving our opponent more cards to answer our questions.
i'm also not a huge fan of duskmantle seer. now i can totally see the usefulness of the card, i just feel that this deck can't afford for us to be carefree with our life total.
I think you are reading the cards wrong. You are also not getting what i am trying to replace.
I feel the Desecration Demon is the weakest creature in the deck. I also feel it needs a way to refill your hand after say you filled their graveyard and dropped two or three that's and go into top deck mode.
Urban Evolution cost 3UG. The additional land is a bonus, but i look at it as Draw three cards. Getting an extra land in play is just a bonus. Besides Duskmantle guildmage likes when you have 7 land in play. Consuming Aberration likes when you have cards in hand to play.
Bloodgift Demon does NOT provide card advantage to your opponent. It provides you with 2 cards a turn. It can fly like the other demon. Essence Harvest likes it too.
I'm open to considering Duskmantle Seer, but he is the one that provides an extra card a turn to both the opponent. The odds of our own deck flipping anything more than 3cmc would be so low anyways, but if he puts the opponent on a faster clock then it might be worth it. Shaman and Essence Harvest can help offset the life loss.
I don't understand what you mean about Urban Evolution and Bloodgift Demon.
The upside with Seer all but 3 cards cost 4 or more. The downside is your opponent gets a free card to, but that can be an good thing. Negates the life gain from Thragtusk or Sphinx Rev. Dealing 3-8 damage with the Seer ability and attack on top of that is pretty decent.
Liliana may even work pretty good to fill the yard.
This is more Midrange Mill, but didn't feel it needed its own thread, since we share many of the same cards.
The first couple turns you are setting the graveyard up to play high quality beaters or set up your reach utility creatures.
I'm indifferent with Desecration Demon. It doesn't fit. It feels.
I feel out needs more cantrips. Like a hand refill like SphRev. I want to try Urban Evolution...but it might weaken the creature density to much. Demon is good with Essence Harvest.
I hate Mind Sculpt. It does nothing on its own, but it fuels the yard cheap and early. I even Mulligan to find one, as out makes practically every spell after it, that much better.
Pack Rat comes in against the decks with few creatures for WoP6. This also might be a Quirion Dryad, just to try it out.
Some cards that may replace Desecration Demon in testing:
I think its a decent combo for RUG control or midrange. It forces the opponent to waste removal on a creature that has no offensive presence our risk listing their dudes. This leaves room for your offensive creatures to swing another turn. Its definitely good utility. Obviously hexproof is a problem like GoST, but you can always ping the angel and chump him. The best part is it can two for one tokens.
I do feel it is important to take down a Witchbane Orb.
3 Golgari Charm
3 Negate
2 Abrupt Decay
Those I feel are the core.
If you have access to some Pack Rat. Try it. Having a new creature every turn against a Naya or Gruul deck is good. If left will ingest the battlefield.
Had done rough games just now against WUR delver and a mid range.
I'm glad you asked
Guild Mage is like my pseudo drain life 5 and 6 and has been clutch for his reach that it can grant you. It is only a good utility creature that's why I run only 2. Paired with the multiple mill outlets it sometimes can do some work and provide those last couple of points of damage. He even works when the opponent sweeps the board, you can make them lose a couple points for losing his own creatures and the sorrel played itself, which is a stretch, but I have done it once to drain them 5 life in a turn.
I don't think 1 for 1 spot removal is good in these colors to many situational ones. I have Abrupt Decay at least to fend off pesky artifacts and enchantments that UB alone cannot handle. The only artifact that can alone shut the deck down and currently can't handle is Witchbane Orb because it artifact and over 3 cmc. Even Golgari Charm only deals with RiP, but that can also save you from a board sweep. A neat story: I'm playing against Junk tokens deck that had Parallel Lives, which I lost game one. Game two
I bring in the charm. Turn 5 I had 3 Pack Rat tokens, Deathrite Shaman, and Phantasm in play. He has PLives, Sorin plus emblem, 4 spirits,10 humans just cast along with Intangible Virtue. EoT I Abrupt Decay the IntVirtue and Charm for -1/-1 to nuke his while team. Next turn I seeing with three rats at 4/4 now, the Phantasm, and drain with Shaman for Lethal damage. It was epic.
This leads to my sideboard. Barter in Blood is the only extra removal I play because it is an effective 2 for 1, yet situational. It coil be a one sided Wrath and can remove Boros Reckoner safely. It beats a Restoration Angel and beats hexproof or protection ability. Yet again this doesn't beat a Witchbane Orb. I use this to slow down the super fast aggro decks.
Threat density is important. Especially, against a control deck. Keeping up with the card draw is also important. Bloodgift Demon helps you. You can not not play it because of removal. It provides an extra card to offset the removal and their own SphinxRev some. It also flutes and 5 power for Essence Harvest and blocks Restoration Angel all day. This comes in for the WoP6 against control.
Pack Rat is a good creature. You can't look at it as a two drop. You have to leave the mana open unless in a pinch. When in play it is card advantage. Return you get to draw a card see what it is...say it is a late game mind sculpt or an 8TH UNNECESSARY land? Make it a rat. At worst every turn you have a chance of making a Champion of the Parish. All for one card. So a Supreme Verdict is basically a 1 for 1. Any spot removal will have to destroy both, if you are tapped out. Effectively, making a 2 for 1 in your favor. I bring this in against control and tokens to replace Wight of Precinct Six, since they run few creatures. I bring this in against a midrange control build for the guildmages and a single WoP6 since they are more fragile or slow.
4 Wight of Precinct Six
4 Jace's Phantasm
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Thragtusk
2 Desecration Demon
2 Duskmantle Guildmage
2 Consuming Abberation
Spells:
4 Thought Scour
4 Mind Sculpt
1 Dream Twist
4 Essence Harvest
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Breeding Pool
3 Overgrown Tomb
2 Hinterland Harbor
2 Woodland Cemetary
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Rogue's Passage
3 Bloodgift Demon
3 Pack Rat
3 Golgari Charm
3 Negate
3 Barter In Blood
Some stats if they make sense to you-
Mana sources:
15 blue u
14 black b
11 green g
CMC:
1 = 13 (8 Creatures 5 Non-creature; 4 B/G 9 U)
2 = 12 & 9Sb (6 creature 6 Non; 4 U 4 B 2 each U/B & B/G)
3 = 4 (4 Non; 4 B)
4 = 2 & 3Sb (2 Creatures; 2 BB)
5 = 5 & 3Sb (5 Creatures; 3 G 2 U/B)
Any questions or comments about any card choices on main deck or sideboard cards are welcome.
I just added the Rogue's Passage tonight, which was another Drownyard before. Many games I found my self casting Consuming Abberation on turn 4 or turn 5 and the ground is clogged up, even when a turn 6 WoP6 comes into play. The Rogue's Passage will come in handy because I needed a way to also get through Boros Reckoner without dealing myself 38 damage. I didn't feel like wasting a card slot for a single Artful Dodge to get two uses from it when Rogue's Passage can get me many uses if your needed. I haven't seen the lone land yet in a game, but I will let you how it fairs.
I also removed Urban Evolution. It diluted the threat density. I'm going for the lifegain will make me last another turn to draw me a card approach for now.
I will save this to post my current list to update my older post when i get home.
Game 1 I had him down to 4 life and 6 cards in library., until he verdict and i went into top deck mode for three turns 2 land and essence harvest against his Alms Beast and Abberation. I won game 2 because of the reach from Shaman and Essence Harvest with a Desecration Demon in play, which i never would have drawn if not for Urban Evolution. I win game 3 because of Bloodgift Demon and Pack Rat from the sideboard.
Yeah I think getting to that 5th land drop is really important. I think you are creature light though. Removing Paranoid Delusions was good. Sucks running an Abberation into a Boros Reckoner sucks, so Abrupt Decay will help. I think 9 Mill spells might be good. I'm running 8 (thought scour, mind sculpt), but I feel I want another one. I may change to 4 Dream Twist and 1 Mind Sculpt. 3 Essence Harvest seems where its at. Having too many cards relying on having a decent sized creature in play can make for too many dead cards. Abrupt Decay mainboard is essential. You need some sort of wide range removal. The card I have had trouble with most recently is Witch bane orb. Not being able to target them shuts down half of our deck.
I think you are reading the cards wrong. You are also not getting what i am trying to replace.
I feel the Desecration Demon is the weakest creature in the deck. I also feel it needs a way to refill your hand after say you filled their graveyard and dropped two or three that's and go into top deck mode.
Urban Evolution cost 3UG. The additional land is a bonus, but i look at it as Draw three cards. Getting an extra land in play is just a bonus. Besides Duskmantle guildmage likes when you have 7 land in play. Consuming Aberration likes when you have cards in hand to play.
Bloodgift Demon does NOT provide card advantage to your opponent. It provides you with 2 cards a turn. It can fly like the other demon. Essence Harvest likes it too.
I'm open to considering Duskmantle Seer, but he is the one that provides an extra card a turn to both the opponent. The odds of our own deck flipping anything more than 3cmc would be so low anyways, but if he puts the opponent on a faster clock then it might be worth it. Shaman and Essence Harvest can help offset the life loss.
I don't understand what you mean about Urban Evolution and Bloodgift Demon.
The upside with Seer all but 3 cards cost 4 or more. The downside is your opponent gets a free card to, but that can be an good thing. Negates the life gain from Thragtusk or Sphinx Rev. Dealing 3-8 damage with the Seer ability and attack on top of that is pretty decent.
Liliana may even work pretty good to fill the yard.
4 Wight of Precinct Six
4 Jace's Phantom
4 Duskmantle Guildmage
2 Consuming Aberration
2 Desecration Demon
4 Thought Scour
4 Mind Sculpt
4 Essence Harvest
2 Mizzium Skin
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Breading Pool
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Hinterland Harbor
2 Woodland Cemetary
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Nephalia Drownyard
4 Pack Rat
3 Negate
3 Golgari Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Mizzium Skin
2 Barter in Blood
This is more Midrange Mill, but didn't feel it needed its own thread, since we share many of the same cards.
The first couple turns you are setting the graveyard up to play high quality beaters or set up your reach utility creatures.
I'm indifferent with Desecration Demon. It doesn't fit. It feels.
I feel out needs more cantrips. Like a hand refill like SphRev. I want to try Urban Evolution...but it might weaken the creature density to much. Demon is good with Essence Harvest.
I hate Mind Sculpt. It does nothing on its own, but it fuels the yard cheap and early. I even Mulligan to find one, as out makes practically every spell after it, that much better.
Pack Rat comes in against the decks with few creatures for WoP6. This also might be a Quirion Dryad, just to try it out.
Some cards that may replace Desecration Demon in testing:
1.1 changes - side board changes.
Each have their pros and cons. Any thoughts on these cards or the deck?