I already said that. I also already said that you're criticizing me for my oonfidence, and then criticizing me when you don't like the answer. I don't think it's in good faith, I think you're just using that time-honored scum attack of manipulating the town into mislynches based on emotion instead of genuine tells.
Unless something I've posted has tilted you in some way that I don't understand, but primarily our interactions have been your claiming that me and the entire rest of the thread are insane for not agreeing with you on LW, and me and everyone else asking you to maybe not be quite so much of a one-string guitar where 90% of your posting focuses on either that one thing, or reads/arguments stemming out of that one thing.
Did Tammy reread first, still belongs in town-pile.
Feeling a bit exhausted and low on sleep/energy now, but going to try and soldier on through HR, Sloth, Cuth, wake/Bessie, Boom, Vaimes, and/or thread rereading further.
@Tammy-- And I can see why you'd arrive at that read. It's very tough to parse when someone is doing that intentionally/unintentionally without a conversation on how that's coming about.
I'm not especially convinced of Boom, although once some of the people who were pushing that wagon on him flip scum he probably moves further towards that, but Anak and KJ have both done an excellent job scum hunting and sharing their thoughts and reads in a way that makes it quite clear they're putting in their best and most sincere effort.
Since his fifth post, Anak has exhibited a level of subservience toward you not commonly seen outside of Aztec sacrifices and A Handmaid's Tale.
And he's NEVER posted his rationale why.
How in the hell can you argue this with a straight face?
Quickly, this is just an outright lie and you know it.
I have posted exactly why I think Az is a terrible yeet, how I think are chances are after doing so. And as Az went into detail on, exactly why I think highly of him as a player.
But where have either of you actually tried to read each other.
And Highroller is not lying there because there really hasn't been an actual attempt for a read from either of you. If there is I don't remember seeing it. You guys are just basically depending on the good old days to say that you're not good yeets, and hey a day one bropass is cool. But you guys are not really reading each other.
Like when you asked about my read on Az, you didn't try to point out where I was wrong on my view of superficial or lack of genuine scumhunting. You deflected to ask if anyone was doing genuine scumhunting. Did you ever point out where and why I was wrong? I may have missed some posts, but I thought if my view was wrong, you'd point out why.
When you don't do that and you just talk about valuing them as a player rather than actually reading them, you're not doing the game a favor.
You think our chances to win are terrible if Az is gone, well what do you think of his poe? What do you think of his reads? What do you think of the game state?
If you're not willing to actually read people because of good old days, then Tubba's right and this place is just a popularity contest. But it's not mafia.
Anak has explained that elsewhere. His read on me was the same read I had on boomfrog. Am I certain of the alignment? No. Am I certain I don't like the case or the timing? yes.
I haven't really shown my work on Anak due to lack of time, but I mentioned ISO'ing him during my reread, and wrote a few sentences on that maintaining him in my town-clear pile.
Well I am sorry for being *****y. I don't have a problem with self-assured. I like self-assured. Some of my favorite mafia players are the most arrogant players I've ever played with. They've been my favorite players even as they're telling me my reads are wrong.
The communication style I'm having a problem with, and feels malicious and not town, is when it feels like it's veering into straw man territory. Constantly calling people's scum read on you something that it isn't, is frustrating. It makes sense if you're scum because that's what scum do, but if you're town it's frustrating. You've been doing it with me and you just did it with Highroller's read on you.
You and Anak deciding not to actually read each other and decide that COBRA KAI NEVER DIES is fine, but if you can't understand why it's scummy and frustrating to deal with then *shrug*. Like you literally just tried to make up a reason to scum read me because I suspect Anak. If you're town, that's um well it loses games and I think you know that.
No, that's purely unintentional, as you're one of the few players I haven't reread or noted to any degree, due to that comment that your scum play is beyond obvious, and you haven't seemed like obv-scum at all to me this game.
I'm a bit of an absent-minded professor type, where my head is so cluttered with esoteric information that I have hard time remembering even the simplest things, unless they're written down. Like, to the point that I worry about getting alzheimers when I'm older, because I shouldn't be forgetting basic things as often as I do.
Probably, that means I need to ramp up my notes in a different way than the excel sheet as formatted, maybe go back to a souped-up word doc, with hyperlinks - something more robust.
So if I don't have a great factual handle on certain events in this game, but still seeming to be blusteringly certain on a few reads - that's part of that weird contradiction as well. I have high confidence reading players based off the things I've seen, but I also don't have the same shared communal knowledge as everyone else may, and particularly about your history as I haven't felt it's been needful till now.
If you are somehow town Azrael you are absolute ass at communication. The way you put everyone down and try to intimidate and then oh no melodramatic I'm s great you have to let me live forever don't you know I"m amazing is so old and tired and not convincing.
It's bleh.
Tammy, I've been trying just about everything I can think of to be civil with you. I've apologized. I've acknowledged where your points are correct or fair. I've piled disclaimer upon disclaimer on my posts. I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt.
But you seem to think that posts where my only intent is to disagree with you (or others), is me trying to be intimidating or putting you down. You have an extremely warped read of who I am as a person, as much as I came out and called me a misogynist, which is very much a conversation that very much belongs in the post-game.
I do not think I am the besterest player EVAR, and have said multiple times that I'm over the hill, in decline, and not where I used to be. At the same time, you and other are criticizing me for being inexplicably self-assured, and the only valid and true explanation for that is that at one point I had reason to be self-assured. I don't really know if I still do - you kind of have to prove that anew with every game, and with every new and unique circumstance. I can understand how you could easily misread those comments. But in terms of my having a communication issue - part of that is that my communications are susceptible to being mistaken intent, and part of that is that you're choosing those misinterpretations over different, more charitable interpretations.
I would kindly appreciate if you leave further negative comments about my communication style until the post-game, as the mod has already asked the thread to refrain from personal attacks, and it's making this even more of a stressful and unpleasant experience.
I do not have any private chat with Azreal and have not said anything about Bessie being awesome scum. Actually she tends to hate being scum and only plays out scum games as an obligation to her team. Scum Bessie never comes out swinging against Tammy without checking with her scummates first, she's very cautious as scum.
@Tammy - HR's doing his best to say that this site's version of the standard bro-pass, which quite often extended past day 3, not day 1, is somehow an anomaly for Anak in order to make him the next chain in the mislynch. So it bears replying to.
I can't defend the fervency of Anak's read, without providing the necessary background. Which feeds quite nicely into HR trying to get me lynched based on unlikeability instead of, you know, actual logic and scumminess. But pay no attention to that from him, he's totally town guys.
Please bear in mind tomorrow that the scum already knows the result of today's most likely mislynch, and are already setting up Anak to take the fall for tomorrow, instead of, you know, the people actually responsible for mislynching me.
I should have read up on Tammy too, instead of just taking that comment that she was terribly obv-scum as gosepl. *grimace* Greatly dislike this coordinated smear campaign on Anak, as if posting 3-4x that he thought it was a bad day to lynch me wasn't fervent enough on the one hand for Tammy, but was also enough for her to try to tie him to me. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Well, there's still a bit of night left to try to revise/review again, see what else is in the record.
To elaborate on Anak, Anak knows that players such as Iso and Axelrod and Rafaelk and myself and others were a resource as town, that sometimes we could turn some pretty bad situations around. That in most situations, the scum-catching value we brought to the table increased the town's chances enough that it was seldom wise to take us out too early. I often made the same argument about other effective analysts, such as Axel and Iso, myself.
Either we're scum and get taken out in the late game, or we're sltown and so valuable either the scum will take us out early, or we take out enough of the scum for it to hurt them badly. That was the logic, and it worked well. I didn't often live past day three or four, in those days, as town.
It got to the point I leaned more towards replacing into a game halfway through so that I could have more analysis material to work with and catch them out. But the next evolution in that process was to see if we couldn't just win the game on day one or two and find all the scum in one intense burst of research, instead of trying to grab them one at a time sequentially. Otherwise, chances were we'd never get the chance to get them all, as the NKs on us were too consistent and our impact was too limited.
I very much doubt I'm still at that level given that I have about 10 to 20 percent of the time I did back then, which causes me to skim, to gloss over details, to not take as thorough notes, leading to grist for HR's potshots. And the playerbase changing hurts a lot, too. But as I said about Iso, Iso at even ten percent of his powers was still quite a considerable weapon. Experience helps, pattern recognition helps.
Anak is doing nothing more than arguing for a strategy he witnessed that helped quite a few towns achieve success. It's nothing odd or unusual - it was the conventional wisdom. If you misread him for that, it's another mistake.
Since his fifth post, Anak has exhibited a level of subservience toward you not commonly seen outside of Aztec sacrifices and A Handmaid's Tale.
And he's NEVER posted his rationale why.
How in the hell can you argue this with a straight face?
Subservience? No. Criticism of the case against me and its timing? Yes.
But as for his reasoning and the fervency of his views, that never surprised me at all. Anak and I are from a different age, we've seen each other in action, and nothing in how he regards me is much different from how most players of that era who saw me at my best regarded me.
But apparently now it's so obvious that he's mafia that his posts belong in an article about how exactly to scumfirm yourself. Okay.
The one I quoted, yes. On first read, I just skimmed over it as laziness on his part and concentrated on the fact he claimed to not have even read the setup post. On second read, I paid attention to the exact wording, the rest of his posting history, and with half the posters from that early in the thread eliminated, the posts from each of the survivors stuck out quite a bit more than the contributions our noisier, deceased brethren.
Hey, Azrael, quick question: how are you so convinced Anak, BoomFrog, and KJ aren't mafia?
I'm not especially convinced of Boom, although once some of the people who were pushing that wagon on him flip scum he probably moves further towards that, but Anak and KJ have both done an excellent job scum hunting and sharing their thoughts and reads in a way that makes it quite clear they're putting in their best and most sincere effort.
The contrast with others' half hearted or in insincere efforts is quite striking.
I already said that. I also already said that you're criticizing me for my oonfidence, and then criticizing me when you don't like the answer. I don't think it's in good faith, I think you're just using that time-honored scum attack of manipulating the town into mislynches based on emotion instead of genuine tells.
Unless something I've posted has tilted you in some way that I don't understand, but primarily our interactions have been your claiming that me and the entire rest of the thread are insane for not agreeing with you on LW, and me and everyone else asking you to maybe not be quite so much of a one-string guitar where 90% of your posting focuses on either that one thing, or reads/arguments stemming out of that one thing.
Feeling a bit exhausted and low on sleep/energy now, but going to try and soldier on through HR, Sloth, Cuth, wake/Bessie, Boom, Vaimes, and/or thread rereading further.
Anak has explained that elsewhere. His read on me was the same read I had on boomfrog. Am I certain of the alignment? No. Am I certain I don't like the case or the timing? yes.
I haven't really shown my work on Anak due to lack of time, but I mentioned ISO'ing him during my reread, and wrote a few sentences on that maintaining him in my town-clear pile.
No, that's purely unintentional, as you're one of the few players I haven't reread or noted to any degree, due to that comment that your scum play is beyond obvious, and you haven't seemed like obv-scum at all to me this game.
I'm a bit of an absent-minded professor type, where my head is so cluttered with esoteric information that I have hard time remembering even the simplest things, unless they're written down. Like, to the point that I worry about getting alzheimers when I'm older, because I shouldn't be forgetting basic things as often as I do.
Probably, that means I need to ramp up my notes in a different way than the excel sheet as formatted, maybe go back to a souped-up word doc, with hyperlinks - something more robust.
So if I don't have a great factual handle on certain events in this game, but still seeming to be blusteringly certain on a few reads - that's part of that weird contradiction as well. I have high confidence reading players based off the things I've seen, but I also don't have the same shared communal knowledge as everyone else may, and particularly about your history as I haven't felt it's been needful till now.
Sorry, that was snippy. It was earlier today, likely within the last 1-2 pages. The time I have left, I'd like to use on rereading/analysis.
Tammy, I've been trying just about everything I can think of to be civil with you. I've apologized. I've acknowledged where your points are correct or fair. I've piled disclaimer upon disclaimer on my posts. I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt.
But you seem to think that posts where my only intent is to disagree with you (or others), is me trying to be intimidating or putting you down. You have an extremely warped read of who I am as a person, as much as I came out and called me a misogynist, which is very much a conversation that very much belongs in the post-game.
I do not think I am the besterest player EVAR, and have said multiple times that I'm over the hill, in decline, and not where I used to be. At the same time, you and other are criticizing me for being inexplicably self-assured, and the only valid and true explanation for that is that at one point I had reason to be self-assured. I don't really know if I still do - you kind of have to prove that anew with every game, and with every new and unique circumstance. I can understand how you could easily misread those comments. But in terms of my having a communication issue - part of that is that my communications are susceptible to being mistaken intent, and part of that is that you're choosing those misinterpretations over different, more charitable interpretations.
I would kindly appreciate if you leave further negative comments about my communication style until the post-game, as the mod has already asked the thread to refrain from personal attacks, and it's making this even more of a stressful and unpleasant experience.
You missed that too?
This game is collectively blind. All of us.
I can't defend the fervency of Anak's read, without providing the necessary background. Which feeds quite nicely into HR trying to get me lynched based on unlikeability instead of, you know, actual logic and scumminess. But pay no attention to that from him, he's totally town guys.
Please bear in mind tomorrow that the scum already knows the result of today's most likely mislynch, and are already setting up Anak to take the fall for tomorrow, instead of, you know, the people actually responsible for mislynching me.
I should have read up on Tammy too, instead of just taking that comment that she was terribly obv-scum as gosepl. *grimace* Greatly dislike this coordinated smear campaign on Anak, as if posting 3-4x that he thought it was a bad day to lynch me wasn't fervent enough on the one hand for Tammy, but was also enough for her to try to tie him to me. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Well, there's still a bit of night left to try to revise/review again, see what else is in the record.
Either we're scum and get taken out in the late game, or we're sltown and so valuable either the scum will take us out early, or we take out enough of the scum for it to hurt them badly. That was the logic, and it worked well. I didn't often live past day three or four, in those days, as town.
It got to the point I leaned more towards replacing into a game halfway through so that I could have more analysis material to work with and catch them out. But the next evolution in that process was to see if we couldn't just win the game on day one or two and find all the scum in one intense burst of research, instead of trying to grab them one at a time sequentially. Otherwise, chances were we'd never get the chance to get them all, as the NKs on us were too consistent and our impact was too limited.
I very much doubt I'm still at that level given that I have about 10 to 20 percent of the time I did back then, which causes me to skim, to gloss over details, to not take as thorough notes, leading to grist for HR's potshots. And the playerbase changing hurts a lot, too. But as I said about Iso, Iso at even ten percent of his powers was still quite a considerable weapon. Experience helps, pattern recognition helps.
Anak is doing nothing more than arguing for a strategy he witnessed that helped quite a few towns achieve success. It's nothing odd or unusual - it was the conventional wisdom. If you misread him for that, it's another mistake.
Subservience? No. Criticism of the case against me and its timing? Yes.
But as for his reasoning and the fervency of his views, that never surprised me at all. Anak and I are from a different age, we've seen each other in action, and nothing in how he regards me is much different from how most players of that era who saw me at my best regarded me.
The one I quoted, yes. On first read, I just skimmed over it as laziness on his part and concentrated on the fact he claimed to not have even read the setup post. On second read, I paid attention to the exact wording, the rest of his posting history, and with half the posters from that early in the thread eliminated, the posts from each of the survivors stuck out quite a bit more than the contributions our noisier, deceased brethren.
I'm not especially convinced of Boom, although once some of the people who were pushing that wagon on him flip scum he probably moves further towards that, but Anak and KJ have both done an excellent job scum hunting and sharing their thoughts and reads in a way that makes it quite clear they're putting in their best and most sincere effort.
The contrast with others' half hearted or in insincere efforts is quite striking.