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  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Day 4: Fracturing Gust
    I've been spirited away by my wife, so I'm reduced to mobile, at best, for the weekend. Top priorities to read upon my return are Tom and Rhand. KCC and Sir Chris haven't been read yet, and beeboy I need to take a hard second look.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Day 4: Fracturing Gust
    Quote from Fuwa »
    I would like an extension. (Sorry guys, but I haven't been able to catch up and I doubt I can before deadline)


    @ Mod - Fuwa also asked for an extension, per above.

    Which is good, because while I very much appreciate not being dead, lynching a player unclaimed isn't exactly great either.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Day 4: Fracturing Gust
    Quote from Killjoy »

    Az: I'd like an opinion. Rhand/Cantrip/Axel. Of the three that /barned dk's reasoning on me, I assume you think Axel is the most likely scum out of the three?


    Not Cantrip. Axel's tough to read but is flashing some mildly concerning plays, and my reread hasn't reached Rhand yet. On my initial run-through, I greatly disliked how much he was pushing this meta-based argument that he really ought to have known better than to push, but until I read him I don't know whether to just be disappointed or suspicious.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Day 4: Fracturing Gust
    Quote from Vaimes »
    Let me try that again:

    I remember when you read me correctly despite the entire scumteam + Sir Chris (lol) tunneling on me in the Hearthstone invitational. Now you're completely flopping on my alignment, which strikes me more as fake than rustiness.

    Choo choo.


    Always happy to help you edit out your scum tells ex post facto, Vaimes.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Day 4: Fracturing Gust
    Quote from Vaimes »
    I remember when you read me correctly despite the entire scumteam + Sir Chris (lol) tunneling on me in the Hearthstone invitational. Now you're completely flopping on my alignment, which honestly strikes me more as fake than rustiness.

    Choo choo.


    "Honestly"

    Not another emotionally manipulative post at all, here.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Day 4: Fracturing Gust
    Quote from Vaimes »
    Did I not explicitly state there's a difference between activity and presence?


    I think it's a bit ridiculous to argue they aren't highly inter-related, especially as this played out. I was clearly noting scum-reads throughout, as well as town-reads. What I wasn't doing, was converting those into dreadnought-style wall posts, or doing massive thread rereads, and until I can make time to engage in that level of activity, no, there won't be much "presence."

    Quote from Vaimes »
    Because that's 100% an MTGS scumtell, attacking me for attacking your activity when...I wasn't.

    Oh wait you voted me. 24 hours before deadline. Are you sure?


    Absolutely sure, but good point. Request Deadline Extension A. Day 1's the best time for that by far, and it'd be nice to have a real wagon instead of this dreck you and Shadow and tom have been spewing.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Day 4: Fracturing Gust
    Updated:

    Town:

    Grapefruit
    Dkingsland - numerous strong townie attitude posts.
    Killjoy – strong tonally
    Vez - genuine attempt to counter-claim, strong tone.
    Cantripmancer – post 38: consistently focused on logic-based tells, unfair seeming attacks.
    Sir chris – would have been super easy to let me die. Hopefully not pocketing me.
    KCC
    Rhand
    beeboy – certain type of self-awareness, wants freedom to lynch arbitrarily, unvote based on role reasons. More analysis necessary, says time for competing wagons – why?
    fuwa - self-deprecating frequently, fence sits on both sides of shadow and sir chris, no reasoning for sir chris vote. Inconsistent in characterizing her own attacks, seems to suggest her attacks subjective and might be valid only in her own eyes. Very light-hearted/carefree in tone, which is somewhat unusual for inexperienced scum .
    Axelrod – weak push vs KJ, weak jump off. 189. Weirdly states suspicions heightened at same time he extricates.

    Syrenz/LW - entertains two diametrically opposed ideas using strong language for each, wavers, then picks one. Not organic read.
    Tom
    Shadow – snipes reasonlessly at KJ, tries to pick on KJ for not counter-voting in his analysis post.
    Vaimes – too preoccupied with protecting his own self-image, non-committed and poor explanations for votes on Cantrip and I, good explanation for vote on Tom (buddy?), but won’t follow through, too-easy clear on shadow (buddy?), multiple extremely poor voting reasons for me (activity, lack of counter-wagon, cheap points, not reading posts fully), not fairly evaluating.

    Mafia
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Day 4: Fracturing Gust
    Quote from vaimes »

    I know you're really asking me if I rolled scum again.

    I am town, and I'd say I'm more relaxed than having fun.


    Don't trust this, at all. Suspicious mind.

    Quote from vaimes »

    I've looked at KJ's posts and am uninterested in this wagon.

    My pet scumteam is Cantrip/Ax/???/???.


    Not going after KJ is good.

    Pet scum team why me and cantrip?

    Quote from vaimes »

    Also I haven't been town in forever and my usual scumplay is to not care about a single thing being posted in the thread.

    Go easy on me. dot dot dot


    Hello, fellow medium-sized creatures!

    Quote from vaimes »

    Oh you're so scum.


    [Directed at cantrip]

    I don't get that at all from Cantrips post. Or towards cantrip, in general, really.

    Quote from vaimes »

    Deflective humor suggests a guilty mindset.


    Considered applying that to your own posts this game? Like for real.

    Quote from vaimes »

    Okay. Hi, then.

    I don't blame you for taking "Vaimes lurked and lost" away from that game, but I'm not that easy to read anymore. Do you have anything you want to ask me that might actually shed some light on my alignment for you/anyone?


    The preoccupation with controlling how others read you is real.

    Quote from vaimes »

    tom is also scum.

    Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.


    A little less talk, a little more action please. I know you want credit for attacking your buddy, but I'd really prefer if you want for the hard-town cred from actually trying to get him murdered, instead of aiming for cheap comment cred.

    Quote from vaimes »

    No but really, the way he’s sort of mindlessly pushing scumreads pings scum to me. I know tom isn’t afraid to get his hands dirty as scum, but it always always always feels forced, in a “I need results **** the process” kind of way.

    Word vomit sorry.


    You're right here.

    Quote from vaimes »

    Combination of him being somewhat low hanging fruit and people I don’t like pushing on him + wagon speed.

    Safe to say that regardless of KJ’s alignment, there is most definitely mafia pushing there. I think it’s Cantrip and/or tom. I think if tom is scum, KJ looks better for it since tom isn’t afraid to openly defend sinking teammates.


    But not shadow, per KJ's analysis? Vaimes/Tom/Shadow team? Gutsy for all three to poke at me, but...

    Quote from vaimes »

    Cantrip, that particular “deflecting” post really doesn’t matter. It’s not the cornerstone of why I think you’re scum. I just didn’t like it in the context of you responding to something of mine.


    Yeah, you still haven't explained what the supposed cornerstone of that read is.

    Quote from vaimes »

    I’m like 98% sure tom is scum.

    But I kinda want to test to see if he’s chainsaw defending Cantrip.

    Outstanding questions later tonight.


    If you're 98% sure, maybe try killing him.

    Quote from vaimes »

    My wrath.


    Feels more like periodic unexplained mudslinging than wrath.

    Quote from vaimes »

    Ooh.

    Unvote, vote tom

    tom/Chris wagons are perfect.


    Quote from vaimes »

    I haven't actually read anything, skimmed and saw that Chris did something that involves inside info on beeboy or whatever. No read on him since he's been too busy to make a lot of noise, so I support the pressure.

    Don't have a beeboy read, I'm straight sheeping LW until I feel like doing work.


    ...

    Read those two posts in order. This is consistent how? It's perfect that Chris is being wagoned, but you haven't even read why he's being wagoned??

    Quote from vaimes »

    I don't understand the shadow scumreads or votes. He's been scum a lot recently, and I feel like there's a difference this time around that means he's town. More earnest solving and less doing things for show.

    Plus I think if he were scum again he'd be more of a drag. dot dot dot


    Continued shadow defense.

    Quote from vaimes »

    Unvote, vote Azrael

    Quick question to people voting shadow: are you high, mafia, or both?


    Disagree, therefore mafia. Solid reasoning, that.

    Quote from vaimes »

    Name one thing that makes Azrael a villager, without rereading.


    Can't name a single thing that makes you townie, and I'm 3/4 through my reread on you. Found plenty that indicates otherwise.

    Quote from vaimes »

    He was weak and slanky last game.

    He's happy and actually cares about the game.

    He's town.


    He's happy, therefore town??

    Quote from vaimes »

    I think the way he almost seems to be trying not to make waves and fly under the radar is scummy. I think as town he’d be more prolific.

    Which is absolutely not a “wah Az isn’t active enough for my liking,” he just doesn’t have any presence as a town player here.


    I guarantee you that I didn't invent a pair of (adorable) kids or IRL obligations solely to have an excuse to be less active in this game. Activity cases are some of the weakest, most non-alignment indicative cases you can possibly make. But sure, go for the D1 analyst lynch based on that alone.

    Quote from vaimes »

    Is there anything in Az’s wallpost about who he thinks is scum? Especially among those pushing him? Which slot does he want to run up and/or kill? He knows he’s a major wagon heading into deadline, right? Who cares about defending the Grape read at this point, it’s been a billion years.


    You know, some people don't believe in deflection as defense. They believe in actually addressing the points against them, before they just try to throw someone else under the bus instead.

    Quote from vaimes »

    Betcha Az is gonna try and persuade y'all to let him wait til EoD for his ability to auto-trigger, instead of doing it while the sun's up. Otherwise I don't know why he bothered mentioning it, the overwhelmingly obvious course of action here as a villager under fire is to prove your ability as soon as you can. Especially if it's just gonna happen automatically after the lunch.


    Anyone who thinks about this for half a second...

    Quote from vaimes »

    Azrael is painting his whole wagon as scummy and not calling out anyone in particular.

    My vote will not be moving.


    1) Failing to call out other people out mid-defense is hardly scummy.
    2) You just plain missed where I called out multiple people in that wall, but rushed to make a negative, dismissive post against me anyways. Definitely fairly judging this wagon, definitely no agenda here.

    vote Vaimes. You wanted me to counter-wagon, right?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Day 4: Fracturing Gust
    Quote from Vaimes »
    "it provides scum with the exact info to kill me"

    My guy, you are about to be lunched. Even if you survive AND are town, it's insane to think that scum would ever kill you.


    If I'm town, the scum want to kill me. One way or another, sooner or later. That's just life. I don't see many end-games.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Day 4: Fracturing Gust
    Quote from Axelrod »
    Well, seems to me it's highly optimistic of you to be thinking that you are going to be around long enough for it to matter if the scum know how to "play around" it or not. Which moots the point of keeping it secret and incidentally prevents some people (me) from deciding whether or not they believe it, and/or whether it's town.


    Anyone ever excused me of not being cocky? And it's good play, regardless.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Day 4: Fracturing Gust
    Full thread reread is bogging down - going to re-activate super specific spot reads to cover at least the major holes, and fill in more detail later.


    Quote from beeboy »

    Hypothetically if Az flips scum is being quickly ok with a claim from a player who I know will likely die and flip scum given people are already criticizing the claim at the time of my post really the easy and intuitive thing to do as scum?

    Isn't Az being town a worse look for me?


    There's a certain type of self-awareness here.

    Quote from beeboy »

    DK probably? My wagon wasn't pure and I fully intend to do something about it.
    Fuwa and Az as far as people not voting me are concerned.


    Hmm. Meh.

    Quote from beeboy »

    I am falling for the Az claim btw.
    To some capacity it justifies people feeling he is underwelming given his role wants to live to late game


    Would prefer is this were behaviorally based, but it's an imperfect world.

    Quote from beeboy »

    @Wisp If I wanted to play in an environment where I wasn't allowed to lynch players for arbitrary reasons I'd still be playing on mafiascum. I don't mean to disregard what you want but I don't feel like I am crossing any lines here.

    Like I've said why I think Shadow is scum, I get he has a high post count but whenever I used to top post I never felt like I had a right to not be lynched for it.
    I think Tom is lurking out his wagon and also have my reasons to think he is scum. :/

    I am not just going to chain lynch all the high profile players for the memes to try and get a deep wolf and not adjust if I am wrong.


    *cocks head sideways* Interesting first sentence, there.

    Quote from beeboy »

    I am starting to actually town read Chris here.
    Initially i didn't like the WK of me because I got kind of scared it was an attempt to buddy me which scum will do when a player gets shoved into a corner, either they don't think the player will be lynched or they want to stay off the wagon. But at this point am convinced that Chris does believe that I am town here. And I do like how he is leveraging his other interactions and reads using his read on me rather then just hard defending me.


    Hm. Nevermind.

    Quote from beeboy »


    Ok so I don't expect anyone to sheep me on this but honestly I am just tone reading Wisp right now and honestly if I had to bet the game on my current read I wouldn't. So if I die right now I don't want anyone to think I have some enlightened read on Wisp that is worth sheeping. He could be engaging with me more but that hurts my heart more then its alignment indicative.

    But I am very confident in my ability to have a good macro read on Wisp, so it's more as long as I am alive I want to give him the freedom to play freely in order to get that read faster. Watching him get frustrated and pushed down will make it easier for him to hide and defend himself as scum while making him less transparent as scum.

    So like I know this is a weird answer but I am pretty content calling him town and am happy with what I am doing. And if Wisp does start wolfing arbitrary macro read timers won't apply, but I do like his tone and I do have a plan so exaggerating my read is something I am fine doing.


    Little odd to share exactly what his intentions are publicly in this way, like an instruction manual on what not to do.

    Quote from beeboy »

    vote: Tom

    It's time for competing wagons.


    I don't disagree - but can you explain that reasoning?

    Cutting short here, but not willing to clear beeboy, more analysis on this slot necessary I think.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Day 4: Fracturing Gust
    Quote from Axelrod »
    I would add: What kind of "retaliation" is this? Does this ability remain in effect indefinitely until you are targeted? Oh, and what did you mean when you were high-fiving with Chris last night about giving incomplete or inaccurate information?


    It is both a roleblock and a role cop. Regarding #2, I think you guys have all the information necessary to actually evaluate the claim, and getting that much further into the details only provides the opportunity to either 1) engage in pointless and unproductive modgaming 2) provides the scum with exactly the info they need to kill me. So no, and I don't care for the fact that Rhand was interested in that level of detail on how to play around that ability, either.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Day 4: Fracturing Gust
    Quote from Cantripmancer »
    Az, please answer Rhand's questions about your claim while you're here tonight.


    Repost? Doing work here.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Day 4: Fracturing Gust
    Quote from Killjoy »
    Ok so time to explain my reads.

    (First, Unvote)

    dk and KCC came into the game all excited (which isn't necessarily a tell) but also they were kind of... the opposite of self aware a bit as well. Scum usually aren't so carefree in general, so those entrances were ones that made me say "ok, these folks might be town" and as such I gave them both townleans.

    Additionally now, I like the clapback from dk in 106. He didn't just accept my townread lying down. He stopped and analyzed it and said "wait, I haven't done anything townie yet! Where is this coming from?" Scum might prefer not to put themselves out there and draw attention to the townread on themselves which they would know to be wrong (and therefore could collapse under scrutiny).

    Tom made post 148 which is annoying to me because it's not analytical at all. It's just like "heres why scum makes that post" withoutany actual thought. It didn't actually come from me, btw. It was Voxx, post 77 of his mentor thread with Proph. " It's very, very rare that 5 town will be on a lynch in a row, especially on town." The reason I said it in the first place is it's something I look for when wagons reach 5 or 6.

    Now, lets analyze the wagon on me.

    Killjoy (6): dkingsland967, Rhand, Cantripmancer, Axelrod, tomsloger, shadowlancerx

    dking's vote is fine as discussed above. Rhand, Cantrip, and Axel are literally all just /barning that, and tom and shadow gave no reason. Well, technically Rhand /barns dk, Cantrip /barns Rhand, and Axel just restates dk's reason.

    I originally said there was likely 1-2 in these 6. (I say 1-2 instead of just 1 due to the speed of the wagon.) With dking's out, there's 1-2 in Rhand, Cantripmancer, Axelrod, tomsloger, shadowlancerx. I don't think there's >1 scum in Rhand, Cantripmancer, Axelrod as they are basically just barning each other and I don't think scum typically interact like that. Well... ballsier scum might? I don't beleive they are ballsier scum though.

    That leaves tom and shadow. There COULD be both scum here, as tom and shadow are both proficient and ballsy scum players who go against typcial scum tropes. But assuming that also goes against Occum's Razor since assuming that tom and shadow are both powerwolfing at this stage is not super likely. If there IS exactly 1 scum in there, tom is more likely due to 148 because it's could easily be malicious, whereras shadow hasn't done anything like that to me.

    Now on to other things.

    Vaimes: Yes, that was what I was asking. I recall you saying in scumchat in Hill House that that was like the 4th consecutive scumgame for you and you seemed to hate it. Good catch. :p

    Rhand: Talk to me about this game. What else do you have opinions on?

    Shadow: I'd really like a reason for your vote. You say 'unexpressed opinion'. What is that opinion?

    I'm not gonna bother asking tom since there's a very likely chance he just won't answer and that'll tilt me again.


    I feel like the logic in this case is held together by gossamer strands - and I normally hate this kind of "but there must be X scum on my wagon!" as a premise argument, but if you're going to go there, this is a good iteration of it. I like the portions of it where you're differentiating which types of scum votes are or are not likely to occur together on the wagon, and I do agree that Tom/Shadow were the worst two votes, there.

    Quote from shadowlancerx »
    Actually that is a good point, @KJ: why no vote in that post?

    Unvote cause I’m not quite ready to force a claim.


    That's a terrible point. Not everyone under attack is obligated to immediately counter-wagon.

    Quote from Killjoy »

    3. Azrael - lean scum: his Grape read is way too deep
    Have you never played with, or actually SEEN Az play before?


    THANK YOU

    Quote from Grapefruit21 »

    His vote is in the sweet spot of opportunistic, overexplained, and easy.

    As for KJ kind of everything but especially this page. He seems curious and like he's looking for answers. I loved the way he narrowed his list to take dk off in the next post after his 1-2 in x. His questions this page have generally been pointed in ways that look hunty. And he's showing zero panic despite being at roughly 7 votes 72 hours in. Yes it's early but with the history of recent wagons his chances of dying today are astronomical barring a massive turnaround and he's entirely nonplussed and continuing to solve and interact. Not a single sign of anti spew.


    Another really solid grape post.

    Quote from tomsloger »
    Kj/grape team with the valiant attempt?

    Wouldnt be with the vezok/beeboy grouping though


    This is super lazy, and I don't grok it, at all.

    Quote from Vaimes »
    No but really, the way he’s sort of mindlessly pushing scumreads pings scum to me. I know tom isn’t afraid to get his hands dirty as scum, but it always always always feels forced, in a “I need results **** the process” kind of way.

    Word vomit sorry.


    Excellent and spot-on bus. Jam

    Quote from Axelrod »
    Unvote

    So, the thing is, KJ, the wagon on you wasn't "bad." It was just weak, which is kind of a different thing. There wasn't much to it because there simply wasn't much that had happened in the game yet. It virtually had to be weak. I knew that when I voted, but I decided you gotta start somewhere.

    I feel like you could/ought to have dismissed it with a waive of your hand and a roll of the eye (and at least some kind of superficial explanation for why you felt dking's RVS posts were Townie), but then you went and dug the hole deeper by not responding and instead promising a "full" response later (which is just always a Red Flag for me, especially when it would literally have taken two seconds), and then coming back with this huge dissection of your wagon which amounted to a virtually useless statistical analysis.

    The entire point of running someone up quickly, especially with some weak reasoning - at least in my opinion - is to see what they will do. Secondarily to see how other people react to it. My feeling is generally scum will feel the pressure of it more than Town and be more likely to panic in someway. So taking a million hours off to compose your thoughts before replying is a scummy move. And that "analysis" of your wagon is another one.

    Only reason I'm unvoting here is I feel the need to do some homework, in as much as I seem to recall being convinced you were scum before when you weren't and it was possibly for something like this, where your play pattern just didn't mesh with what I consider to be logical/normal behavior. I don't remember what game that was but it had to be one of the last two we played, so I'm going to do that.

    So, I had no problem with [unexpressed thought], and even thought it was elegant, in as much as I didn't want anyone coming in and pointing out how weak the wagon was before KJ said something about it. But now he's said something, so why is your thought remaining unexpressed?

    :p

    I'll show you "overexplained"


    This post is a bit overwrought. Seems like a really awkward dance of trying to express continued or even heightened suspicion on KJ (who never should have been a wagon to begin with), and extricating himself at the exact same time.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Modern Mafia - Day 4: Fracturing Gust
    Quote from shadowlancerx »

    @KJ: Fuwa is female FYI.

    I knew it!

    Quote from Rhand »

    This feels like Az knows Grape is town. Or he has Einstein IQ.
    No one reads a post like this, thinks all of that and then simply says “I think Grape is town”.


    Yeah, still hate the incredible false dichotomy in this post.

    Quote from KittyCupCake »

    I feel like I'm missing something here. But I can wait to see where to this is going.


    So much for that. (Patience on the syrenz/lw prod)

    Quote from tomsloger »
    vote kj


    Yuck.

    Quote from shadowlancerx »
    [unexpressed thought]
    Vote Killjoy


    Double yuck.

    Quote from dkingsland967 »

    Yuck, these posts are suuuuuuuper self-aware, especially when considering Vaimes just lost a game as scum where lurking was a primary reason why he got lynched.


    This is true.

    Quote from Killjoy »
    This wagon on me is beautiful and fill of content.


    Rofl
    Posted in: Mafia
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