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@dbs: i wish i had died early. It's not that i am not dependable, it's just i have a hard time actually focusing on what people say. I'm a little slow on the uptake, but i usually figurr out at least one scum. I just have trouble conveying why or convincing people why.
I was right about d_v for most od the game. Figured out vezok too late and had a hell of a tunnel on tom.
That being said, this game was stressful and confusing to me, but i tried. I really did.
I actually really appreciated all the effort you put into figuring this out. That was really evident, and in a group full of people who were ready to give up, you were right in there, fighting it out. That was awesome.
So don't pay any attention to DBS' bit about you needing to be lynched because people wouldn't listen to you. I violently disagree with that both in practice and in theory.
That said, DBS had some really good points about what happened to her, here. THere was a point in time for both Iso and I, a while ago, where we would put pressure on people for the sake of seeing how they'd respond to it, on an emotional level. And in the goodness of time, we each reached a point in our development as players where we agreed that trying to stress people out crossed a line, and shouldn't be done going forward.
I really want us to be welcoming community and a good place for people to come and make a mafia home. And if DBS is feeling that that's not what happened in this game, if we were actually making a big issue out of her being from somewhere else instead of welcoming, that's something we've really got to keep an eye on going forward. We've always been a community that welcomed people from all over the place to come here, and play, and make a home here. Being good to one another > being a good mafia player. Let's keep true to our roots on that.
Sorry if my attitude came off as holier than thou. It was more like, "man, I'm actually really rooting for you guys, but can't actually step up and do what needs to be done myself, so all I can do is be the annoying canary in the coal mine." Much prefer to be actively scrapping and not armchairing it up, but it seemed like the town kinda lost the will to live pretty quick, here.
Vex, you do realize there is a difference between the azrael intentionally trying to avoid being a threat, and the azrael who makes everyone's eyes bleed from hours and hours worth of PBPAs? Of course my reads on scum were aimless, but it hardly took mich effort to see the town's wagons were both lazy and off target, and I said as much repeatedly.
You're right, this doesn't feel like much of an Az victory. It seldom does, for survivors. It requires np effort, no skill, and there is little real play or counterplay involved in whether youbwin or lose. Neutrals can be fantastic, and I have enjoyed many iterations. But not survivors. After axel complained about receiving his survivor role in sin city, I've avoided them ever since.
DBS and dota were both terrible wagons. Nobue was an obvious doe eyed newbie, and dots didn't so anythi bff worth lynching. If the worst you can remeber against DBS was the claim, that should tell you something as well. We agree on AE. And while I pushed the the town towards Terry also, nobody, especially me, did any real homework on it.
This was not your win. You should have been lynched day 1 instantly after the claim. I have no idea why people on this site don't know to do that.
After you claimed it was obvious you weren't going to help town as that would make you a target for scum. This was more about the town ******* up than you playing well. You probably would have won if you only posted a post with "ah" every three days.
I have some more thoughts about the game, but I want to wait for Iso to finish the game.
No way. The problem with survivors (well, yet another problem) is that they make games inherently more swingy. If the town is ahead, it is another slot YOU can regard as an innocent child for the POE. If the town is behind, you have to wonder whether or not they will turn on. But even if you do lynch them immediately, you have not gained any ground. You eliminated a possible scum vote, but you also eliminated two bodies standing in the way of their win con, so either way the scum are a day ahead of the game.
They shouldn't be included ever because they are simply not fun both for the recipient and other players, but your best way of handling them is exactly what the town did. The town's mistakes were in those awful, awful wagons on obvious townies for poor reasons, without analysis.
I was only one of those things, Vez. Neutral waste of space. And I'm afraid to say I hink I plaued my win condition of indolent complacency completely by the book, to a triumphal, anticlimactic finish..
Claim was exactly described. I don't see how it was remotely feasible.
There may have been games where I am naturally suspicious of you for style issues alone. But on a superficial, 50% effort level analysis, the amount of damage you did to the town this game was exemplary.
In other news, can we ban survivors? They just are such an awkward role with no clear purpose for doing analysis or being deceitful.
So, here's my plan. I think today, I'm going to keep voting Tom. Tom is scum. He's clearly scum, because not only DV watched him kill, but because he hasn't been rush-lynched to death yet by the three mafia for the win.
After today, I'm probably going to vote in line with the team that impresses me most with their arguments/play. I think that's about as fair as I can make it. Mafia has out-played the town heavily so far, and I respect that, but it just feels dirty to give the town the summary coup de grace. Obviously I could throw the game right now, but it just doesn't seem like a fun way to go, unless the town is requesting that I put them out of their misery and give the nod to the scum for superior play.
*scratches head* I suppose the other self-interested reason I could have for nailing a townie here is if the mafia get freaked out that I'm prolonging the game to achieve an alt-win con though. Which would be bad. I don't really want to die on behalf of this town.
Hrmm. Awkward. Well, this is a head scratcher. If I was just a plain vanilla survivor I think could just derp around in the middle for a while, but I'm a little scared of the paranoia nightkill. Ugh.
Well, I guess if I lose, at least it will be in service of making the game more interesting. If the town does want to forfeit, lmk, I can help end it, but otherwise, I'll listen to feedback and park my vote where it is for the time being.
Why does scum AE pretend to be confused about this? His confusion wasn't going to get a to be lynched. There is no motivation for him to do that. The town explanation that he was just clueless and making weird assumptions fits so much better.
I actually really appreciated all the effort you put into figuring this out. That was really evident, and in a group full of people who were ready to give up, you were right in there, fighting it out. That was awesome.
So don't pay any attention to DBS' bit about you needing to be lynched because people wouldn't listen to you. I violently disagree with that both in practice and in theory.
That said, DBS had some really good points about what happened to her, here. THere was a point in time for both Iso and I, a while ago, where we would put pressure on people for the sake of seeing how they'd respond to it, on an emotional level. And in the goodness of time, we each reached a point in our development as players where we agreed that trying to stress people out crossed a line, and shouldn't be done going forward.
I really want us to be welcoming community and a good place for people to come and make a mafia home. And if DBS is feeling that that's not what happened in this game, if we were actually making a big issue out of her being from somewhere else instead of welcoming, that's something we've really got to keep an eye on going forward. We've always been a community that welcomed people from all over the place to come here, and play, and make a home here. Being good to one another > being a good mafia player. Let's keep true to our roots on that.
You're right, this doesn't feel like much of an Az victory. It seldom does, for survivors. It requires np effort, no skill, and there is little real play or counterplay involved in whether youbwin or lose. Neutrals can be fantastic, and I have enjoyed many iterations. But not survivors. After axel complained about receiving his survivor role in sin city, I've avoided them ever since.
DBS and dota were both terrible wagons. Nobue was an obvious doe eyed newbie, and dots didn't so anythi bff worth lynching. If the worst you can remeber against DBS was the claim, that should tell you something as well. We agree on AE. And while I pushed the the town towards Terry also, nobody, especially me, did any real homework on it.
No way. The problem with survivors (well, yet another problem) is that they make games inherently more swingy. If the town is ahead, it is another slot YOU can regard as an innocent child for the POE. If the town is behind, you have to wonder whether or not they will turn on. But even if you do lynch them immediately, you have not gained any ground. You eliminated a possible scum vote, but you also eliminated two bodies standing in the way of their win con, so either way the scum are a day ahead of the game.
They shouldn't be included ever because they are simply not fun both for the recipient and other players, but your best way of handling them is exactly what the town did. The town's mistakes were in those awful, awful wagons on obvious townies for poor reasons, without analysis.
Claim was exactly described. I don't see how it was remotely feasible.
In other news, can we ban survivors? They just are such an awkward role with no clear purpose for doing analysis or being deceitful.
*shrug* Not my battle if I'm wrong I guess.
So, here's my plan. I think today, I'm going to keep voting Tom. Tom is scum. He's clearly scum, because not only DV watched him kill, but because he hasn't been rush-lynched to death yet by the three mafia for the win.
After today, I'm probably going to vote in line with the team that impresses me most with their arguments/play. I think that's about as fair as I can make it. Mafia has out-played the town heavily so far, and I respect that, but it just feels dirty to give the town the summary coup de grace. Obviously I could throw the game right now, but it just doesn't seem like a fun way to go, unless the town is requesting that I put them out of their misery and give the nod to the scum for superior play.
*scratches head* I suppose the other self-interested reason I could have for nailing a townie here is if the mafia get freaked out that I'm prolonging the game to achieve an alt-win con though. Which would be bad. I don't really want to die on behalf of this town.
Hrmm. Awkward. Well, this is a head scratcher. If I was just a plain vanilla survivor I think could just derp around in the middle for a while, but I'm a little scared of the paranoia nightkill. Ugh.
Well, I guess if I lose, at least it will be in service of making the game more interesting. If the town does want to forfeit, lmk, I can help end it, but otherwise, I'll listen to feedback and park my vote where it is for the time being.