Anyhbody have any guesses how people will shake the meta up to combat all the control decks now? probably going to see lots of Carnage Tyrants.
And what are your guys' take on mirror matches? What do you like to run?
Control mirrors are my fave. I prefer to switch into UW flash still leaving in approaches. Bring in Raff, Histories, and 2 Lyra. Play on their turn and force interaction. Between the pressure you should be able to get the kill or exhaust resources and get double approach.
I dont run Gideon, but hes also very strong in the mirror. I'll have to see how I can fit him. Maybe 3 history 2 gideon and cut something.
Thanks Meecht. So, if that's the whole argument in favour, to me it appears categorically inferior to Champion.
An unanswered champion won't win games against control. And at best it's a buffer against aggro. An unanswered history will win games against control forcing them to interact and tap out allowing you to do your thing main phase. The benefit is while it won't gain you life, it *can* be brought in against aggro.
It is most definitely *not* inferior to sunscourge. History is ridiculous. Play it and you'll see
I am not sure why people like History of Benalia. It's significantly better against aggro and control. Can anyone help me understand why HoB doesn't suck?
Once again, the bolded part is what I want to emphasize. Control mirrors usually side out some removal, not all. If a turn 3 history resolves...from my playtesting it will put that player at a significant advantage or just outright win. Not even exaggerating here. It's that strong. Against aggro ot isn't ridiculous however it is viable and will protect you and your walkers. I encourage you to sleeve it up and give it a go
Hey guys, this deck looks like a load of fun and I am considering buying into it. Before I do so, I wanna ask 2 questions.
I see three types of UW running around, Control, Approach and Flash (with Raff). What are the main differences between the versions, which one is the best deck in your opinion? I am concerned only having 4 Gearhulks as a win condition in straight control, seems like this deck has trouble closing out the game, I guess this is an advantage of Approach?
What is the reason for including a card like History of Benalia? Is it a special SB tech, because a 4 of seems a lot, almost like a transformational SB plan.
Thanks for helping me out!
UW flash has a surprise factor because it is relatively new and people are still learning to combat it. It does have its flaws but it is strong. I feel flash should be esper because flashing in deathtouch Gonti is strong as hell. But Flash is in its infancy. Flash IMO trumps straight control but I believe has a disadvantage to approach.
UW control is very consistent but is surely. In the mirrors whoever casts gearhulk first and gets theirs countered usually loses so its a lot of draw go bluff. Will probably come down to Ip mill. Has decent game against approach but struggles against flash pressure. Requires patience and a poker face to play because you want have all answers and will have to bluff.
Approach imo is the best of the three. Fairly consistent gameplan with an win button. Some decks just can't do anything against it as well as you can go approach into approach without fear, and you have SB options on what you want to do when legacy and duress come in. Options are great
TLDR:
None are the strongest per se but requires knowledge of meta and your local scene. For me lots of aggro so I'll play flash so I can insta speed some Lyra and whoop ass. If I was going to a big tourney I would do approach UW or esper without hesitation
How easy it is to Sideboard switch among these different UW Decks?
My SB is 4 hero of benalia, 3 Lyra, 3 negate, 3 forsake the worldly, 2 flash captain for historic (forget his name)
Against control I ignore Lyra but go 4 history 3 negate and 2 flash captain. Makes the deck more aggressive and an unanswered hero can win the game by itself.
Flash captain puts pressure and allows EOT Walker shenanigans. That's my plan at least
Hey guys, this deck looks like a load of fun and I am considering buying into it. Before I do so, I wanna ask 2 questions.
I see three types of UW running around, Control, Approach and Flash (with Raff). What are the main differences between the versions, which one is the best deck in your opinion? I am concerned only having 4 Gearhulks as a win condition in straight control, seems like this deck has trouble closing out the game, I guess this is an advantage of Approach?
What is the reason for including a card like History of Benalia? Is it a special SB tech, because a 4 of seems a lot, almost like a transformational SB plan.
Thanks for helping me out!
UW flash has a surprise factor because it is relatively new and people are still learning to combat it. It does have its flaws but it is strong. I feel flash should be esper because flashing in deathtouch Gonti is strong as hell. But Flash is in its infancy. Flash IMO trumps straight control but I believe has a disadvantage to approach.
UW control is very consistent but is surely. In the mirrors whoever casts gearhulk first and gets theirs countered usually loses so its a lot of draw go bluff. Will probably come down to Ip mill. Has decent game against approach but struggles against flash pressure. Requires patience and a poker face to play because you want have all answers and will have to bluff.
Approach imo is the best of the three. Fairly consistent gameplan with an win button. Some decks just can't do anything against it as well as you can go approach into approach without fear, and you have SB options on what you want to do when legacy and duress come in. Options are great
TLDR:
None are the strongest per se but requires knowledge of meta and your local scene. For me lots of aggro so I'll play flash so I can insta speed some Lyra and whoop ass. If I was going to a big tourney I would do approach UW or esper without hesitation
A couple of pages back I wrote something like "We'll have to test it, but I don't think Teferi will be all that good."
Yeah...that was about the wrongiest wrong I've ever wronged.
Maybe just a little...
@Hobbits73 - leaning towards straight UW but have been playing just control without Approach. 2-3 Teferi and 4 Gearhulks so far have been very strong. I know this is an Approach primer, so may have to sit down and write one up for just UWx Control.
I have to agree. Going forward I believe approach will have to go towards some form of grave hate in 2 to 3 scavenging grounds to combat opposing 4x gearhulks.
In addition I think history of benalia is an excellent sideboard option for this new draw go style control. UW is definitely the deck to beat and I believe UWx approach has the tools to combat it
*EDIT*
Upon further review, first place decklist running 61 cards. This "new control" is breaking all the norms.
I was also at Esper at first a week or so ago but now switched to UW. Sure you lose The Scarab God, Fatal Push and Vraska's Contempt but you'll get a more solid base in return. I've checked Chapin's list, tweaked it a little because I wasn't very happy with Evolving Wilds among other things.
This is where I'm at now, feels good. After game 1 it's possible to transition to a more creature based deck if required while still keeping your control options open. Any comments are welcome. Also trying out 1 Slaughter the Strong main as a cheaper sweeper for all the big boys out there.
I like your build, a lot more than the pro's build that's for sure. Having said that I feel that Teferi main deck is not a good choice, the reason is that against aggro decks which are any type of Red decks, or the new Knight decks as well as R/G dinos you will be dead before Teferi comes out and even if he is out the opp won't care much about him and just run you over with creatures. I would test him as a 1 of or at most 2 of in the maindeck.
Second I like that you included Slaughter the strong and I think this should be a 2 of in the deck at least, there will be a lot of big creatures coming out fast including turn 4 Carnage Tyrant and we need this card to deal with him. I know settle deals with him as does fumigate but it's good to have a 3 mana answer as well.
I'm not sold on blink of an eye, because I run T. Gearhulk main deck so I'd rather run commit instead and also the 1 Pull from tomorrow is too situational and will not work at all in most games, and if you can cast it for a lot it means you're winning anyway.
I would also go up to 4 on Essence scatter, it will be a creature heavy meta so this spell is golden.
As for the sideboard, I don't know what's up with the 1 spell pierce and 1 solemnity but they're not so good as just 1 of. I also think now that T. Gearhulk should be main-decked instead of sideboarded in, because what will you side them in against? Against aggro they are too slow, against control they don't really do much but there's more effective cards to side in the mirror match than gearhulks.
I will be posting my decklist next week, after Dominaria is out and I can get some cards to playtest.
With T. Gearhulk, by your statement, we shouldn't be running it at all (which I disagree with tbh)
If it's too slow maindeck and too slow and situational to side in, why not just run something else. I plan on dumping gearhulks for more spells as I will be running less instants and more enchantments like seal away.
I also feel forsake the worldly should be incorporated in the 75 somewhere. It is house to blow up opposing cast outs/bindings and is fairly decent vs vehicles.
I've been testing this as a 3 of recently and i want to say this card in the board is THE answer we've been looking for to combat those hyper fast delver decks and mirran crusader in U/W aggro.
I think wit the meta shifting towards White and Blue based aggro strategies i think it is time to start boarding the one card that used to hose the boogie man known as Deceiver Twin.
the can't be countered/can't be prevented clause is very relevent in shooting mirran crusaders, delvers and other creatures we have a hard time dealing with withouth worrying about leaks and negates.
what are your thoughts guys?
since no one pointed this out very clearly. it is a very good combo to use.
Turn 1 birds/avacyn pilgrim turn 2 mortarpod turn 3 garruk- blow mortarpod against your garruk, garruk flips, put a 1-1 deathtouch to defend your garruk. It works well since it is easy to have 3 blockers at this point, a birds the deathtouch and a pilgrim. turn 4 you have a creature lock situation, every turn you kill something with mortarpod + that 1-1 deathtouch for only 2 mana .
no one pointed this out because it doesn't work
rules clearly state that damage done by sources YOU control (burn spells, permanants like other walkers, effects like mortarpod, etc.) cannot be redirected to a planeswalker you control unlike what your opponents could do. And in the same situation you couldn't fight the germ because it's power is 0.
i learned this the hard way at states when i ran 3 gut shot mainboard to combat aggro decks while simultaneously allowing me to flip garruk for free upon cast.
I learned the hard way round 2 from a judge it doesnt work that way LOL
Yeah, Hydra for the win.. Ok maybe not. I'm probably the biggest Primordial Hydra supporter on this forum so take anything I say about it with a grain of salt. I don't think Hydra is the right replacement for Overrun. You don't want to replace overrun with a threat, but probably a pump. We do get pumps from our lands but Township doesn't give evasion. That is why Overrun should really only be replaced with Angelic Destinies, or Swords, or if you are crazy like me True Conviction. Basically you want the ability to punch damage. (Which is why I took this theory to an extreme and run Kessig instead of Township in a similar deck.. still fine tuning the mana).Not to mention you are playing a ton of ramp for a reason 6 5-6 drops is standard with these curves so I don't thinking putting in a bunch of 2's makes sense here. If you want 2's you should slim throughout, not just take it off the top.
The true art of Primordial Hydra is threat density. It lets you not have to cut your top end. You curve it like a 3 and be prepared to play it at that (unless against a burn deck, where it's a 6, so you probably should board it out/down, although unanswered they can't beat it). The beauty here is you can keep your overruns, and 5 drops yet run additional threats that when cast later are almost Titan worthy. Primordial Hydra to me is a Mikaeus or Blade Splicer replacement. In Tokens I see the advantage of both of those. So it leads to a different deck (one that wants Primal Hunter, and Wolf Run more than Township, Elspeth and Relentless). Not one that necessarily wants to play Primeval Titans, but definitely a different deck. One that takes Juza's concept and goes all in on good stuff and lightens the Token sub theme even more. That's what my deck is.
The problem with Hydra is unless you embrace it completely it will never be good enough. In the same way people lament about Hero of Bladehold just dying. We all know Hero is worth playing, and that it does die. Playing Hydra is like stacking your deck full of Heros. Except perhaps it's an even riskier proposition since you might not really get the advantage til about 2 turns after playing. Sometimes they just die and die and die and die. But the opponent never gets a free breath. On the positive for decks with less removal it can be even scarier. What's bigger than Dungrove Elder? What when left alone a few turns isn't scared of Wurmcoil (remember you can use instant speed removal after blocks to prevent damage and trample through). It's the only threat that actually works past all Wolf Run versions.
Any it's a curve issue and I don't think Tokens is the right home unless you are willing to embrace it even farther. But I'd be stoked to see more people play the card that has won me so many matches. It isn't amazing but it is definitely underrated. I understand the costing because if they made it any stronger it would be very playable card. If it was a 1/1 to start it would be perfect. Instead of a X= 3 being the sweet spot, X=2 would be. Untapping with a 5/5 for 4 is exactly where you want to be on power curve for a midrange deck. If that was the case I'd recommend the card a lot more but I probably wouldn't need to.
i just want to say i may try the hydra route but i cut overruns for true convictions and i havent looked back since...i mean absoultely NOTHING short of being countered (same problem with overrun) or poison decks can outrace the power of double strike + lifelink. i mean i tried wormcoil engine and i always hated seeing it die before value was gained. true conviction does the same for me that worm did and it makes every card in my deck threatening.
it also allows you to race wolfrun (without inks of course) and allows cards like beast within to no longer matter. true conviction + 1 activation of township= you better have an alt win con cuz u aint winning with non infect damage
I play 4 skinshifters, and I am kinda....uhhhhh on them. reasons I like them
-they are a 2 drop
-opponents really dont like to see them (atleast it seems that way)
-mid/late game they get really good (when you have the mana to activate aswell as play spells)
-they block nexus'
-i play 2 SoWAP main, so the trample dmg is really nice
cons
-like people said, sometimes it is hard to decide whether to leave the mana open, or cast the 3 drop in your hand
-1/1 when you have other stuff to play
I think I will keep them in the deck - but might cut them to a 3 of.
It is really the hero that I am reallllly "meh" on. She just dies so fast - the target on her head is toooo big, especially cause she has no evasion.
The other odd addition in my deck is mentor of the meek. I find it gives me a LOT of gas. There are soo many 1-2 drops on my deck (remember, I run skinshifter)
how have you liked it?
i started a thread for discussion but i feel it's a little cold. i havent tested many games yet with him enoughto know if he warrants inclusion. seems like the consensus is that his mana cost is too conflicting with the rest of the deck to warrant inclusion but i feel he may actually be worth a shot. I do run the ramp package so having a turn 2 meek is pretty saucy but i was wondering from someone who has done more extensive testing..
where does mentor shine?
have you ever wished it was something else?
what value does it bring in your deck?
if you could clarify some of that it would possibly assist me in also better testing the card as i am definately going to try it out next FNM. thaank you so much in advance
With the abundance of creatures in the deck with a power of 2 or less in the deck, what are people's thoughts on mentor of the meek? with garruk it turns into a card draw engine for 1, and with some other cards like doomed traveler and shrine of loyal legions you can get alotof value from it. also it can turn midnight haunting into an instant speed think twice...twice....when you compare mana cost (2W+2=5 just like think twices mana)
im thinking of trying 4 mainboard mainly because in testing a turn two Mentor is just juicy for the rest of the deck.
I thnk it may be time to maindeck a set of despise. with all the red, planeswalkers, and. Affront decks despise hits alot of targetswhile setting us up for turn 2 leak. as much as i miss inquisition and duress i think I'm goingto bite the bullet and run despise
Only reason I considered it is it also gives card advantage and it gives you board presence without actually staying on the board so it's only vulnerable when it just came into play and during your opponent's next turn, after that you have 5 1/1 flyers and thopter safely in your hand.
i understand that but the card advantage TA provides is dependent on it surviving your turn AND your opponents turn, it fails the dismember test, and provides no inherent board presence or ETB effect which our deck wants to have when paying 6 mana.
yes wormcoil doesnt provide ETB effects either however it is very hard to get rid of (no throat, dismember, or morbid brimstone volley), has *lifelink* which is HUGE, and even if it DOES die leaves behind 2 babies for revenge.
sphinx also provides no ETB but, the disadvantages associated with it and the thopter is that if your opponent doesnt remove it BEFORE the start of their turn it provides huge CA, passes dismember test, and has evasion
i understand how this thread is for ideas, which is why i pop in now and again to throw some out there as well, but thopter assembly is just not good for this deck unfortunately. Sorry if my previous post sounded blunt
3 maybe.. 4 of most definitely not
Control mirrors are my fave. I prefer to switch into UW flash still leaving in approaches. Bring in Raff, Histories, and 2 Lyra. Play on their turn and force interaction. Between the pressure you should be able to get the kill or exhaust resources and get double approach.
I dont run Gideon, but hes also very strong in the mirror. I'll have to see how I can fit him. Maybe 3 history 2 gideon and cut something.
An unanswered champion won't win games against control. And at best it's a buffer against aggro. An unanswered history will win games against control forcing them to interact and tap out allowing you to do your thing main phase. The benefit is while it won't gain you life, it *can* be brought in against aggro.
It is most definitely *not* inferior to sunscourge. History is ridiculous. Play it and you'll see
Once again, the bolded part is what I want to emphasize. Control mirrors usually side out some removal, not all. If a turn 3 history resolves...from my playtesting it will put that player at a significant advantage or just outright win. Not even exaggerating here. It's that strong. Against aggro ot isn't ridiculous however it is viable and will protect you and your walkers. I encourage you to sleeve it up and give it a go
My SB is 4 hero of benalia, 3 Lyra, 3 negate, 3 forsake the worldly, 2 flash captain for historic (forget his name)
Against control I ignore Lyra but go 4 history 3 negate and 2 flash captain. Makes the deck more aggressive and an unanswered hero can win the game by itself.
Flash captain puts pressure and allows EOT Walker shenanigans. That's my plan at least
UW flash has a surprise factor because it is relatively new and people are still learning to combat it. It does have its flaws but it is strong. I feel flash should be esper because flashing in deathtouch Gonti is strong as hell. But Flash is in its infancy. Flash IMO trumps straight control but I believe has a disadvantage to approach.
UW control is very consistent but is surely. In the mirrors whoever casts gearhulk first and gets theirs countered usually loses so its a lot of draw go bluff. Will probably come down to Ip mill. Has decent game against approach but struggles against flash pressure. Requires patience and a poker face to play because you want have all answers and will have to bluff.
Approach imo is the best of the three. Fairly consistent gameplan with an win button. Some decks just can't do anything against it as well as you can go approach into approach without fear, and you have SB options on what you want to do when legacy and duress come in. Options are great
TLDR:
None are the strongest per se but requires knowledge of meta and your local scene. For me lots of aggro so I'll play flash so I can insta speed some Lyra and whoop ass. If I was going to a big tourney I would do approach UW or esper without hesitation
I have to agree. Going forward I believe approach will have to go towards some form of grave hate in 2 to 3 scavenging grounds to combat opposing 4x gearhulks.
In addition I think history of benalia is an excellent sideboard option for this new draw go style control. UW is definitely the deck to beat and I believe UWx approach has the tools to combat it
*EDIT*
Upon further review, first place decklist running 61 cards. This "new control" is breaking all the norms.
With T. Gearhulk, by your statement, we shouldn't be running it at all (which I disagree with tbh)
If it's too slow maindeck and too slow and situational to side in, why not just run something else. I plan on dumping gearhulks for more spells as I will be running less instants and more enchantments like seal away.
I also feel forsake the worldly should be incorporated in the 75 somewhere. It is house to blow up opposing cast outs/bindings and is fairly decent vs vehicles.
And cycle is good too
umm can we please get a confirmation on this please!
if so and this IS how it works, umm yeah!! i think it's time to brew a combo deck
I've been testing this as a 3 of recently and i want to say this card in the board is THE answer we've been looking for to combat those hyper fast delver decks and mirran crusader in U/W aggro.
I think wit the meta shifting towards White and Blue based aggro strategies i think it is time to start boarding the one card that used to hose the boogie man known as Deceiver Twin.
the can't be countered/can't be prevented clause is very relevent in shooting mirran crusaders, delvers and other creatures we have a hard time dealing with withouth worrying about leaks and negates.
what are your thoughts guys?
no one pointed this out because it doesn't work
rules clearly state that damage done by sources YOU control (burn spells, permanants like other walkers, effects like mortarpod, etc.) cannot be redirected to a planeswalker you control unlike what your opponents could do. And in the same situation you couldn't fight the germ because it's power is 0.
i learned this the hard way at states when i ran 3 gut shot mainboard to combat aggro decks while simultaneously allowing me to flip garruk for free upon cast.
I learned the hard way round 2 from a judge it doesnt work that way LOL
i just want to say i may try the hydra route but i cut overruns for true convictions and i havent looked back since...i mean absoultely NOTHING short of being countered (same problem with overrun) or poison decks can outrace the power of double strike + lifelink. i mean i tried wormcoil engine and i always hated seeing it die before value was gained. true conviction does the same for me that worm did and it makes every card in my deck threatening.
it also allows you to race wolfrun (without inks of course) and allows cards like beast within to no longer matter. true conviction + 1 activation of township= you better have an alt win con cuz u aint winning with non infect damage
how have you liked it?
i started a thread for discussion but i feel it's a little cold. i havent tested many games yet with him enoughto know if he warrants inclusion. seems like the consensus is that his mana cost is too conflicting with the rest of the deck to warrant inclusion but i feel he may actually be worth a shot. I do run the ramp package so having a turn 2 meek is pretty saucy but i was wondering from someone who has done more extensive testing..
where does mentor shine?
have you ever wished it was something else?
what value does it bring in your deck?
if you could clarify some of that it would possibly assist me in also better testing the card as i am definately going to try it out next FNM. thaank you so much in advance
im thinking of trying 4 mainboard mainly because in testing a turn two Mentor is just juicy for the rest of the deck.
i understand that but the card advantage TA provides is dependent on it surviving your turn AND your opponents turn, it fails the dismember test, and provides no inherent board presence or ETB effect which our deck wants to have when paying 6 mana.
yes wormcoil doesnt provide ETB effects either however it is very hard to get rid of (no throat, dismember, or morbid brimstone volley), has *lifelink* which is HUGE, and even if it DOES die leaves behind 2 babies for revenge.
sphinx also provides no ETB but, the disadvantages associated with it and the thopter is that if your opponent doesnt remove it BEFORE the start of their turn it provides huge CA, passes dismember test, and has evasion
i understand how this thread is for ideas, which is why i pop in now and again to throw some out there as well, but thopter assembly is just not good for this deck unfortunately. Sorry if my previous post sounded blunt