Haley is probably Chaotic Good, which makes her a hard sell as someone who'd be part of an organization which would kill Shinjo. Unless arim is seriously warping the characters' motivations from the canon story, Haley and Shinjo are extremely unlikely to be on opposite sides.
Not that I'm saying arim can't warp the characters' motivations all he wants, or that Haley doesn't have a decent chance of being a mod-provided false-claim, but Haley as a claim is a pretty darn good one, given the setup in the first couple posts.
Anyway, I'm not seeing any especially strong indicators one way or the other with ced vs Cyan. Let's move on.
Az, are you deliberately derailing every wagon you can see? You're doing it more subtly than zindabad is with the newb thing, but posts like your last one seem more designed to create uncertainty about who the town should go after than anything.
The case against zindabad is hardly the best case we've seen today, and the only real comments I've seen from you on it have been explaining why he doesn't seem especially townie rather than why he is especially scummy. Could you possibly see your way to actually justifying your vote, at the very least?
Whoever decided that putting forward and back buttons on the mouse was a good idea ought to be shot. That's the second time I've lost my post just by grabbing the mouse the wrong way. *sigh*
Anyway, the gist of it is this. This argument is going nowhere. It might be more important to decide the likeliest town member than the likeliest scum member today in any case, because we absolutely have to pre-determine who is going to hammer. I think Johm is the likeliest town member at the moment, and I want him to hammer. Thoughts?
Eh. Johm's play being markedly more focused outward, so to speak, then I've seen elsewhere, I'm going to go with town for the moment. And the other wagon is who? Tilde? There's not even a pretend case there yet. It's just a bunch of quasi-random votes that fell on the same person. Anyone who seriously calls that a wagon is probably scum trying to encourage an early mislynch.
Sure. Noob scum tend to present with lurking and fence-sitting. Above all, noob scum like to go with the flow. They don't think about gambits and the last thing they want to do is go out on a limb. They don't take risks and go along with safe positions.
Noob scum don't really know how to interact with their scumbuddies in a safe way, so they're most easily caught (in my opinion) once you have managed to get one of their team-mates. Also, noob scum tend to live in the now. They usually don't think about the "big picture" and are solely focused on getting one mislynch at a time. They think it's a good play to force a mislynch and save one of their buddies, even if it tips the hand of two or more of them, rather than let their buddy go quietly and remain hidden.
These are the criteria I look for.
Lurking is more typically a player tell than any kind of indicator of experience. As someone who plays in a lot of noobs and basics, I don't know how apparent it should be to you that players develop distinct habits in this respect, but it should at least be obvious to you that townies are at least as likely to lurk as scum, particularly as noobs.
Fence-sitting is bland language; you really need to justify the mindset of someone you say is fence-sitting before you can say that it's an indicator. Even in the case where you are looking at classic fence-sitting (and not just any case where someone comments on a situation without taking a side), unless it's a question akin to deciding between voting a scum or a townie, townies do it plenty, and so is a poor tell.
As far as Johm goes, give me an example of genuinely forceful language or unsafe positions. I'll agree that both are town tells to some extent, but Johm is a textbook example of someone who took a position he thought would be safe, and then had it backfire. The "suicide" comment is case in point. He didn't say it as part of an attempt to convince anyone; he said it as an attempt to look like he was strongly agreeing with what other people had already said.
I won't disagree with the rest of what you said, but I definitely see that the way he's interacted with other people indicates that he has has pre-developed opinions about many of them.
You need to think more about the difference between the way a townie behaves compared to a scum than just about the way a scum behaves, when you consider your tells.
If someone comes out and says "I'm Durkon Thundershield" or something like that without a BLOODY good reason I'd be tempted to rip up my character sheet on the spot.
Honestly, this is fishing even more than the "Sexy Shoeless God of War" bit was. Having seen your play before, I'm not going to claim that you even realize the carelessness of posts like these, let alone are scum because of it, but seriously, cut it out.
Also, the fact that Banjo is a completely different alignment from Roy's Archon is the genius of it all. It's all a cleverly done facade.
displaying zero interest in what the rest of the town thinks is go[o]d since when?
I didn't say it was good, I said it was a town tell. Mafia never do it.
As for Az's "mafia make lone wolf attacks sometime" statement, I'll respond that it's still posturing on their part. Which is hardly a bad thing. The point is you don't see mafia repeatedly switching from target to target like he sees scum everywhere. It displays a level of uncertainty that scum just don't suffer from.
It might be ironic, but in some cases, bad play is more likely to come from townies than from scum. In my opinion, a lot of good town tells are ones where you see a townie make a mistake scum don't have a reason to make.
I'm going on record as reading zindabad as hard town, to use Az's term for it. Unfocused scum move from wagon to wagon. Unfocused townies move from target to target. zin is clearly doing the latter: he displays zero interest in what the rest of the town thinks of his target at any given time.
I'm not a big fan of Zinda myself, but I'm definitely not a fan of this vote. Perhaps you could detail some of the other "horrendous things" you've been seeing from Zin and ease my mind a little.
But why didn't you originally address his response instead of just saying "Good point"?
If you mean DYH's response, it simply isn't where I'm focusing right now. I marked it out for reference later because I wasn't reading on my own computer. (Nor am I now).
...speaking of completely flawless english, that post should read
"frankly, I'm still trying to figure out where the exact point when you and zind stopped arguing semantics and started saying how scummy each other was."
I should probably sleep.
Oddly, the first iteration of this sentence was better grammar than your correction. This version isn't even a complete sentence.
Aside from that, I think it might actually be a good idea to get back to discussing the possibility of a gender/world claim. If only to make Johm get back into the thread and make it clearer that he needs some votes.
Why did you not directly answer the question that was posed?
I misread it. DYH's explanation is irrelevant in any case. When you get to the point where you're discussing the explanation of the response to the comment on the mindset of the target of the subject of the debate, you're already 4 stages too far removed from the topic at hand to believe that you can draw anything conclusive from it. This is exactly why the case on DYH is too poor to justify focusing on right now.
It seems there's no scenario you will accept where DYH really is scum, and Johnm really is town?
Sure there is. I think this is possible now. I just don't think the case against DYH is strong enough to make him lynchable today, and I think that Johm is much likelier to be scum than anything, and in the case that Johm is town, he is unlikely to have a role that the town wouldn't want to know about, or that is likely to have Johm behaving in a pro-town way.
Tell me what kinds of mistakes a newb can make that would mark him out as scum to you. Right now you have every newb in the game marked out as "obvtown" for no really apparent reason other than because they're newbs. If you expect people to take your opinion on newb tells seriously, you're going to have to quantify how you, personally, tell when a newb is scum, or else no one has (or should have) any reason to think that you're doing anything but stonewalling in a completely irrational way.
Not that I'm saying arim can't warp the characters' motivations all he wants, or that Haley doesn't have a decent chance of being a mod-provided false-claim, but Haley as a claim is a pretty darn good one, given the setup in the first couple posts.
Anyway, I'm not seeing any especially strong indicators one way or the other with ced vs Cyan. Let's move on.
The case against zindabad is hardly the best case we've seen today, and the only real comments I've seen from you on it have been explaining why he doesn't seem especially townie rather than why he is especially scummy. Could you possibly see your way to actually justifying your vote, at the very least?
Anyway, the gist of it is this. This argument is going nowhere. It might be more important to decide the likeliest town member than the likeliest scum member today in any case, because we absolutely have to pre-determine who is going to hammer. I think Johm is the likeliest town member at the moment, and I want him to hammer. Thoughts?
Eh. Johm's play being markedly more focused outward, so to speak, then I've seen elsewhere, I'm going to go with town for the moment. And the other wagon is who? Tilde? There's not even a pretend case there yet. It's just a bunch of quasi-random votes that fell on the same person. Anyone who seriously calls that a wagon is probably scum trying to encourage an early mislynch.
Lurking is more typically a player tell than any kind of indicator of experience. As someone who plays in a lot of noobs and basics, I don't know how apparent it should be to you that players develop distinct habits in this respect, but it should at least be obvious to you that townies are at least as likely to lurk as scum, particularly as noobs.
Fence-sitting is bland language; you really need to justify the mindset of someone you say is fence-sitting before you can say that it's an indicator. Even in the case where you are looking at classic fence-sitting (and not just any case where someone comments on a situation without taking a side), unless it's a question akin to deciding between voting a scum or a townie, townies do it plenty, and so is a poor tell.
As far as Johm goes, give me an example of genuinely forceful language or unsafe positions. I'll agree that both are town tells to some extent, but Johm is a textbook example of someone who took a position he thought would be safe, and then had it backfire. The "suicide" comment is case in point. He didn't say it as part of an attempt to convince anyone; he said it as an attempt to look like he was strongly agreeing with what other people had already said.
I won't disagree with the rest of what you said, but I definitely see that the way he's interacted with other people indicates that he has has pre-developed opinions about many of them.
You need to think more about the difference between the way a townie behaves compared to a scum than just about the way a scum behaves, when you consider your tells.
Honestly, this is fishing even more than the "Sexy Shoeless God of War" bit was. Having seen your play before, I'm not going to claim that you even realize the carelessness of posts like these, let alone are scum because of it, but seriously, cut it out.
Also, the fact that Banjo is a completely different alignment from Roy's Archon is the genius of it all. It's all a cleverly done facade.
I didn't say it was good, I said it was a town tell. Mafia never do it.
As for Az's "mafia make lone wolf attacks sometime" statement, I'll respond that it's still posturing on their part. Which is hardly a bad thing. The point is you don't see mafia repeatedly switching from target to target like he sees scum everywhere. It displays a level of uncertainty that scum just don't suffer from.
It might be ironic, but in some cases, bad play is more likely to come from townies than from scum. In my opinion, a lot of good town tells are ones where you see a townie make a mistake scum don't have a reason to make.
/agree
If you mean DYH's response, it simply isn't where I'm focusing right now. I marked it out for reference later because I wasn't reading on my own computer. (Nor am I now).
Oddly, the first iteration of this sentence was better grammar than your correction. This version isn't even a complete sentence.
Aside from that, I think it might actually be a good idea to get back to discussing the possibility of a gender/world claim. If only to make Johm get back into the thread and make it clearer that he needs some votes.
I misread it. DYH's explanation is irrelevant in any case. When you get to the point where you're discussing the explanation of the response to the comment on the mindset of the target of the subject of the debate, you're already 4 stages too far removed from the topic at hand to believe that you can draw anything conclusive from it. This is exactly why the case on DYH is too poor to justify focusing on right now.
Sure there is. I think this is possible now. I just don't think the case against DYH is strong enough to make him lynchable today, and I think that Johm is much likelier to be scum than anything, and in the case that Johm is town, he is unlikely to have a role that the town wouldn't want to know about, or that is likely to have Johm behaving in a pro-town way.
Tell me what kinds of mistakes a newb can make that would mark him out as scum to you. Right now you have every newb in the game marked out as "obvtown" for no really apparent reason other than because they're newbs. If you expect people to take your opinion on newb tells seriously, you're going to have to quantify how you, personally, tell when a newb is scum, or else no one has (or should have) any reason to think that you're doing anything but stonewalling in a completely irrational way.