Too many of the combo decks can be disrupted by Jitte.
But the combo decks use creatures, and after one swing a Jitte can kill a Kikki Jikki and a pestermite. An exarch after two swings. Costs zero mana, meaning they can still have traditional kill spells for backup. Against storm, one swing is four life, which weakens storm. Two swings is 8 life, which basically ends storm's chances.
T1 Shaman holding T2 jitte swinging on T3 is pretty good. (or T2 lingering souls of T1 shaman equp'd and swinging with T3 Jitte) What I'm saying here is Swinging with a Jitte on turn 3 is pretty back-breaking.
Yeah. Jitte just isn't a safe unban the more I think about it.
People say that it wouldn't help Jund, But that aint true if you take the time to think about it.
Jund has more ways MD to win Jitte wars than any other deck.
Well, I won't go into detail on your personal debate, but on the quoted point: a deck maindecking 4 Torpor Orbs and stuff like Dust Elemental is NOT able to be tweaked for a GP or PT, so it's definitely not right to play a deck like that OR hate a deck like that for the sake of testing for a GP.
That being said I don't think you only should play Tier 1 decks. If you can dominate your local meta with mono blue aggro or mono green control then by all means do so (exaggerated a bit).
Well, if you check my sig you will see alot of non-teir1 decks.
How do you know its not able to be tweaked? Maybe the guy biulding it is trying to innovate? If he wins with it more power to him. Who are we to question his choices?
Every individual is allowed to make thier own choices regarding what and how they play. They are accountable for their own choices in the form of a win/loss record but they don't owe anyone else anything. So long as they do not harrass or insult or harm thier opponent its all good. Also..
Maybe he just has fun playing it and whats wrong with that?
Its not like I play magic ONLY to win money for the sake of amassing more cards to win more tournies (but even if I did that doesn't make me bad or put me in "the wrong spirit).
Maybe I went off a little too hard. but let this be clear: There is nothing worse than when someone tries to shove what they believe to be the "spirit" of MTG down everyone's throats and questions their reasons and style of play.
This is interesting, we started with similar budgets and you saved up for the teir deck while I always went a-brewing.
I can't wait for the Hoop Dreams-style documentary based around us and our performance at a grand prix or something.
Haha, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but whateves. You seem cool. Im not even that concerned about going to big tournies. I just care about being able to play good decks to have a decent chance at winning. I like the tight play elements of the game and thats really difficult to get at without high teir decks.
I brew sometimes, but you rarely here about it here cause it rarely works.
Im not gonna say anythign about any one card, but there is something else that must be mentioned...
Banning and unbanning could shift entire national metas. And there are alot of people that can not afford, money-wise, to shift with the meta. If there is one thing that can kill a format it is a meta that shifts too quickly kicking too many people with once viable decks out of the format when they can not afford another deck.
Its not a problem I will ever face (see my sig), but I know alot of people who would.
I won't name names, but one of the most famous members of this message board did that as well. Actually, the same exact card in weekly Modern tournaments. Torpor Orb is a fantastic SB card that works effectively against Faeries, Splinter-Twin, Pod, and many other decks. However, I think it's a rude call. Weekly tournaments are casual areas where people gather and play to test new ideas, new decks, and tweak lists for bigger tournaments (PTQ's, GP's, etc.) I understand the forementioned user was doing it for the sake of winning to get store credit as he couldn't afford certain cards, but anyone who really does this is just playing in bad spirit.
It goes in cycles. Storm was really good for a while, then everyone packed hate against now. That's died now, and now Storm is really good again. Same with artifact hate and Affinity/Robots. Artifact hate is around but not as strong. Same goes for a lot of stuff. For being a new format, there's been a lot of trends in sideboards.
Torpor Orb is one of the best hate cards in Modern. At top of my head, it affects significant cards in decks like: Splinter-Twin, Soul Sisters, Pod, Faeries, etc.
Well **** you too douchebag...
I started this game in college while living off scholarships with a tight budget. I could spend maybe 15$ a month on magic and that was it. I saved my money and biult teir1 UW-Control during Zen-Ala standard with Jace's and everything. I used the tournament winnings to continue playing magic. Because if I didn't, then I wouldn't be able to play magic at all, period.
(long story short I got into EDH and dropped standard due to rotation killing my money, then dropped my vast EDH collection to get into modern)
So excuse me if fairly winning tournaments while ignoring your imaginary rules (like playing "in the right spirit") is the only way I can afford to stay in the game. some of us don't have $100's of dollars sitting around to drop on cardboard. Be glad you do.
Also... How can you properly tweak and prepare for large tournys like GPs if you aren't playing against people who have a very real incentive to win at your LGS?
NOTE: I don't know who you are specifically referencing in your post and its probably not me caus I'm pretty sure I don't go to your store, but I operate the same way. I gotta win to keep playing.
Dude, SteB. We all agree that Bocephus overeacts and generally doesn't know what he is talking about or cares much for facts. Blah blah blah. But you're going a bit overboard here man.
Jitte gets out of hand fast. The issue with Jitte is that you don't have to deal damage to your opponent to gain counters, you simply have to deal damage. The -1/-1 ability alone kills a majority of Moderns best creatures after a single swing. The only saving grace for Jitte is that it costs 2 to play and an additional 2 to equip so, realistically, it's not going to be online until turn 3 in a turn 4 format. Also, Jitte can be dealt with fairly easily either by creature, artifact or permanent removal. The problem is that once it's online it literally wipes out the other player, it's just a horribly unfun card to be on the other side of once it gets going and I feel that's the angle WotC will be looking at Jitte from. The point I'm trying to make is that Jitte may well be safe to unban, but there are a lot more cards significantly less powerful on the banned list that should, and would, come off the banned list before Jitte does.
Thank you, you said everything that needed to be said and more.
Everyone agrees that Jitte is a non-meta destroying card. The problem is that its probably the single most obnoxiouse card to play around in magic history. The one problem is that you used the word "unfun". Its not unfun. Its on a whole new level of incred-i-bad.
Aaand I'm so done with this thread. There isn't relevant discussion/explanation here, it is just a menagerie of people telling other people they are wrong. Rather than explaining why they are wrong, or how they could be wrong, nothing profound or interesting.GGnoRE
Really?
4+ is your answer BTW... but you don't need removal though.
Jund uses discard+removal
D+T keeps them off the 4 lands needed to combo
Delver and UW Resto have plenty of counterspells
Naya Pod can tutor up answers and pre-empt part of thier combo.
Affinity races them and has removal
Thats alot of decks with a sufficient number of ways to attack splintertwin
That isn't relevant to your questions?
Is this not relevent?
If they have Dispel, then they have to wait a turn and hope you have only one removal spell. In addition, they have to weigh the risk of "going for it" and having it stopped and risk not being able to combo off for a great number of turns if they don't have backup pieces OR they wait to combo off in order to have protection OR to bait you out on your removal while weighing the pros and cons of letting you advance your gameplan while they wait to combo out.
at turns 2 and three if you play a spell, they can tap you down and play splintertwin care free. logically speaking, in order to play against them you can't cast spells of your own deck because you have to be responsive or you lose instantly.
Also, sure, you can path/dismember them, or they can wait a turn and dispel it. But the amount of effort to win is completely off balance, consider that all they need to do is resolve 2 spells to win. That sure outclasses everything else doesn't it? I resolve any 2 spells in another deck I'm not guaranteed victory. The amount of effort is less, and the outcome is higher, how is this not a clear concept?
And lots of REAL decks lose to this, what a fair removal/responsive suite for playing against this deck?
4 spells? 5-7 spells?
Also, dont bold-text me bro
They have answers to your answers? You mean they don't just auto-lose the instant you disrupt them? How dare they!
Combo decks have answers to your answers. Fact of life. Sometimes they don't have em and they lose. Sometimes they do and you lose. Such is magic, get over it.
And you seem to have failed to answer the question I asked earlier...
If twin is such a problem deck, then why hasn't it been winning more?
About the "how many do I need to run" thing... I refer you to this...
Combo is very easy to answer, it just takes some thinking, which people don't want to do anymore. When people think of answers they think of "PTE your duder, herpa derpa" or they think "awsome, combo. If I land one answer i deserve to win".
4+ is your answer BTW... but you don't need removal though.
Jund uses discard+removal
D+T keeps them off the 4 lands needed to combo
Delver and UW Resto have plenty of counterspells
Naya Pod can tutor up answers and pre-empt part of thier combo.
Affinity races them and has removal
Thats alot of decks with a sufficient number of ways to attack splintertwin
Did no one pick up the post about Aether Vial being a Troll Post? Hes just being obnoxious.
Its really hard to take people seriously when they advise others not to use insults and then insult another poster right after giving such advice.
Not very subtle, and again no need to insult people here.
Twin doesnt care about your removal. It main boards anti-removal. It plays its combo pieces on Your turn.
and there is a difference between "Good" and "Broke"
Since when did Twin not care about removal?
Twin aint broken or even too good.
Remember MTGO Daily Events before they only posted one a day? If you look at them you will notice that Twin doesn't even show up that much. It was really good for awhile then it slowed down. It made a 4-0 appereance once a day (at best, if even that) while Jund, Tron, Affinity, SoulSisters/Proc, and UWR Delver were making 4-0's much more often. If its so terrible broken then how did all these other decks happen to beat it out for the 4-0 spot?
what do you want to hear then?
You are complaining about a 5 mana card and a 4 mana card, in a format where it happens that you are dead by turn 4.
What deck do you have in mind that can't deal with those two things?
Or are you just bocephus alternativ account?
Newsflash, if your deck has problems with those cards there are 2421612 worse problems you should worry about first, or to put it straight, your deck is to bad for the format.
Good cards appear in tournament decks
That changes EVERYTHING *hops out of the chair and jumps out of the window*
Exactly!!! Thank god someone else gets it...
There are many things which are debataeble in modern. They include...
-The ban of bitterblossom
-Whether to play Remand or Mana Leak in UWR Delver
-Will burn ever become a teir1 deck?
Those are all great examples. The following is an example of non-debateable FACTS about modern.
- Twin is a fair deck.
The fact that some people don't get them makes me wish you could ban people for being idiots. I mean, we all derp everyonce in awhile with meta predictions or just plain mis-reading cards but ****...
Saying Twin isn't a fair deck is like saying 2+2 doesn't equal 4. And you shouldn't be surprised when people rightfully judge you to be a ****ing idiot when you say stuff like that.
Many decent decks have mainboard answers to it in the form of removal.
As for Jitte, mehh, its good, and it crushes burn, most aggro for that matter, but mostly burn....sounds good to me(:
The combo hate is the result of people being lazy.
Combo is very wasy to answer, it just takes some thinking, which people don't want to do anymore. When people think of answers they think of "PTE your duder, herpa derpa" or they think "awsome, combo. if I land one answer i deserve to win".
Jitte isn't too powerful, it probably isn't meta warping. But its one of the most obnoxious cards in the history of the game, right up there with...
Teferi's Puzzlebox
Chains of Mephistopholes
Stasis
Counterbalance
Shaharazad (bonus points for anyone who knows where this character comes from)
I'm mostly a combo player so it won't effect me, but I have been involved in Jitte wars back when I played D+T in legacy. They were damn annoying to no end. Its one of the most miserable cards to play around.
People say that it wouldn't help Jund, But that aint true if you take the time to think about it.
Jund has more ways MD to win Jitte wars than any other deck.
How do you know its not able to be tweaked? Maybe the guy biulding it is trying to innovate? If he wins with it more power to him. Who are we to question his choices?
Every individual is allowed to make thier own choices regarding what and how they play. They are accountable for their own choices in the form of a win/loss record but they don't owe anyone else anything. So long as they do not harrass or insult or harm thier opponent its all good. Also..
Maybe he just has fun playing it and whats wrong with that?
Its not like I play magic ONLY to win money for the sake of amassing more cards to win more tournies (but even if I did that doesn't make me bad or put me in "the wrong spirit).
Maybe I went off a little too hard. but let this be clear: There is nothing worse than when someone tries to shove what they believe to be the "spirit" of MTG down everyone's throats and questions their reasons and style of play.
Haha, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but whateves. You seem cool. Im not even that concerned about going to big tournies. I just care about being able to play good decks to have a decent chance at winning. I like the tight play elements of the game and thats really difficult to get at without high teir decks.
I brew sometimes, but you rarely here about it here cause it rarely works.
Banning and unbanning could shift entire national metas. And there are alot of people that can not afford, money-wise, to shift with the meta. If there is one thing that can kill a format it is a meta that shifts too quickly kicking too many people with once viable decks out of the format when they can not afford another deck.
Its not a problem I will ever face (see my sig), but I know alot of people who would.
I started this game in college while living off scholarships with a tight budget. I could spend maybe 15$ a month on magic and that was it. I saved my money and biult teir1 UW-Control during Zen-Ala standard with Jace's and everything. I used the tournament winnings to continue playing magic. Because if I didn't, then I wouldn't be able to play magic at all, period.
(long story short I got into EDH and dropped standard due to rotation killing my money, then dropped my vast EDH collection to get into modern)
So excuse me if fairly winning tournaments while ignoring your imaginary rules (like playing "in the right spirit") is the only way I can afford to stay in the game. some of us don't have $100's of dollars sitting around to drop on cardboard. Be glad you do.
Also... How can you properly tweak and prepare for large tournys like GPs if you aren't playing against people who have a very real incentive to win at your LGS?
NOTE: I don't know who you are specifically referencing in your post and its probably not me caus I'm pretty sure I don't go to your store, but I operate the same way. I gotta win to keep playing.
Infraction issued for flaming. -Tom
Everyone agrees that Jitte is a non-meta destroying card. The problem is that its probably the single most obnoxiouse card to play around in magic history. The one problem is that you used the word "unfun". Its not unfun. Its on a whole new level of incred-i-bad.
Really?
That isn't relevant to your questions?
Is this not relevent?
Combo decks have answers to your answers. Fact of life. Sometimes they don't have em and they lose. Sometimes they do and you lose. Such is magic, get over it.
And you seem to have failed to answer the question I asked earlier...
If twin is such a problem deck, then why hasn't it been winning more?
About the "how many do I need to run" thing... I refer you to this...
4+ is your answer BTW... but you don't need removal though.
Jund uses discard+removal
D+T keeps them off the 4 lands needed to combo
Delver and UW Resto have plenty of counterspells
Naya Pod can tutor up answers and pre-empt part of thier combo.
Affinity races them and has removal
Thats alot of decks with a sufficient number of ways to attack splintertwin
Its really hard to take people seriously when they advise others not to use insults and then insult another poster right after giving such advice.
Twin aint broken or even too good.
Remember MTGO Daily Events before they only posted one a day? If you look at them you will notice that Twin doesn't even show up that much. It was really good for awhile then it slowed down. It made a 4-0 appereance once a day (at best, if even that) while Jund, Tron, Affinity, SoulSisters/Proc, and UWR Delver were making 4-0's much more often. If its so terrible broken then how did all these other decks happen to beat it out for the 4-0 spot?
There are many things which are debataeble in modern. They include...
-The ban of bitterblossom
-Whether to play Remand or Mana Leak in UWR Delver
-Will burn ever become a teir1 deck?
Those are all great examples. The following is an example of non-debateable FACTS about modern.
- Twin is a fair deck.
The fact that some people don't get them makes me wish you could ban people for being idiots. I mean, we all derp everyonce in awhile with meta predictions or just plain mis-reading cards but ****...
Saying Twin isn't a fair deck is like saying 2+2 doesn't equal 4. And you shouldn't be surprised when people rightfully judge you to be a ****ing idiot when you say stuff like that.
Many decent decks have mainboard answers to it in the form of removal.
Combo is very wasy to answer, it just takes some thinking, which people don't want to do anymore. When people think of answers they think of "PTE your duder, herpa derpa" or they think "awsome, combo. if I land one answer i deserve to win".
Jitte isn't too powerful, it probably isn't meta warping. But its one of the most obnoxious cards in the history of the game, right up there with...
Teferi's Puzzlebox
Chains of Mephistopholes
Stasis
Counterbalance
Shaharazad (bonus points for anyone who knows where this character comes from)
I'm mostly a combo player so it won't effect me, but I have been involved in Jitte wars back when I played D+T in legacy. They were damn annoying to no end. Its one of the most miserable cards to play around.
Oh how I love LE... And how sad I am that its not a t1 deck.
Pod is one of the most fun decks to play I have found. It gives you so many options.
But if you had to choose just 1 and only 1 which would you choose?
Whats your favorite deck to play against? (affinity, cause its so easy to hate out)
So far...
to play with
Doran: 1
GR Tron: 1
RUG Delver: 2
Living End: 1
Goblins: 1
Storm: 3
Melira Pod: 1
Naya/4c Pod: 4
Gifts Rock: 1
Scapeshift: 2
Zoo: 1
Jund: 3
Hive Mind: 1
Mono Black Control: 1
U/x Control: 1
Bant: 1
Troll Worship Bant: 1
Trading Post: 1
Teachings: 1
to play against
Affinity: 4
Jund: 2
Second Sunrise: 1