Just FYI, I have tested everything from 20-25 lands. I find 24 with 4 Edges to be a good balance between hitting my color requirements and not being screwed/flooded. You definitely want to be aggressive with your Edges, so they rarely stick around to tap for much mana.
Obviously, Phyrexian mana changes things, but 20 just seems like too few. You still want to hit your land drops in the mid-game, since you can grind out advantage by casting more than one spell per turn. Also, with 24 lands, sorceries are less awkward.
I'm not saying I have it all figured out, but it's been pretty smooth for me.
I've played 22 lands, no edges in every pyromancer deck I've made so far but you make a persuasive argument. I'll probably run 24 lands, 3 edges this week.
I'd just like to say how great it is to have all these decisions again pre-NPH pyro ascension had very little card choice with Neurok Commando being the only significant difference between decks.
@Terrapin Guts: I remember you saying a while ago that you'd just bought a bunch of splinter twins. I'd been thinking about playing the combo but had totally forgot to actually buy the cards. I jumped on eBay way back when you first said that and bought 10 for $1 each too Thanks man
Commando seemed weak to me, too. Truth is, he's great. Would you rather Burst Lightning your opponent's dome in a race-like fashion, or burn their creatures? Usually you don't go for their life total until you have PA online so you are gaining value each turn. Now, when you burn a creature in a defensive state, you get to still do 2 damage to their life total, and replace the burn card with something fresh. You can't lose with 2 active Commandos, and 1 Commando is infuriating for any deck that doesn't run Gatekeepers or Squadron Hawks, and even Squadron Hawk decks aren't that well positioned, because we still have a card in hand after killing their hawk and dealing them 2.
This man speaks the truth. The question becomes, do you want to be attacking or defending? Both are valid strategies in a Pyromancer list. If you want to be attacking, play Commando. If you want to defend and sit behind counterspells, play Jace. Here's my PTQ list as a demonstration of the latter:
This is pre NPH obviously and although I'm playing standard at FNM this week I wouldn't play the list again. I did well with it at the time (I lost 1 of my games to mono-green and the other because of play errors) because the people weren't expecting it, it has a good MU against caw-blade, it punishes players running lots of fetchlands (the trick was not losing the first round and playing against more budget decks :P) and sideboarding was a hilarious mind game. However, this is the list I'll be running this week.
I'm going to agree that Blessing > Distortion Strike, and the blessing can also be played for colorless (which brings me to my next point)
I feel like there can be two very different versions of this deck: Blue-Red for Spell Pierce (no bushwackers) or straight R with creatures other than just the fiend and souleater (inc bushwackers/summons).
Personally, I like the UR version better. You are putting all your eggs in one basket but it looks more fun
I don't think im that confident, but i too am skeptical about how neurok commando can be good in t2... can someone explain in more depth other than "its card advantage duh"
I understand why people dislike the card at first glance, it doesn't look that good on paper. The reasoning behind playing it is that this deck (straight ascension, not splinter twin) wins by playing spells. You play spells, they go in the graveyard, you play more of the same spells, your spells are now doubled and you win by playing more of the same spells - this is the core idea of Pyromancer Ascension decks. Now, In most versions of the deck these 'spells' are either burn spells or counterspells, both of which try to keep the board clear of threats in the early game. Commando allows you to benefit from continuing this board clearance into the middle of the game, where usually you would have to start aiming your spells at your opponent's face if you don't want to run out of gas. I'm not sure how well I've explained this but the main idea behind playing Neuromancer is that he gives you cards for playing your other cards.
I should mention that I played Pyromancer Ascension in a PTQ recently (went 4-2) with a list that ran 3 mini Jaces, playsets of Trap and Snare maindeck and no maindecked Commandos. The card does not work by itself to generate CA like Jace does, but within the shell of burn heavy ascension list it functions in a similar way but with a higher risk and higher reward (I sided them in with the rest of my burn every time).
Mental Misstep I'm not entirely sold on but the idea is to be able to counter an early IoK (saving your fiend) or a combo-ending 1cmc removal spell like bolt/burst (or Dispatch? Who knows).
deaths shadow is terrible you should have more creatures that interact with the ooze
I think it's fine as a one-of. It can win the game with a tainted strike in the right situation. I'll give the deck some testing tomorrow and see if that situation ever actually comes up
There's some greedy stuff in here (*cough*Stoneforge) but I want to test how reliably they can be cast/podded into. I've also shifted a little more of the deck's focus towards the turn 3 Immolating Souleater + Tainted Strike combo. If other elements of the deck don't work out, I wouldn't mind adding a fourth of both.
I'm a big fan of Necrotic Ooze combos and I love the look of the new Birthing Pod so I thought I'd try and put something together with the two of them.
The main focus of the deck is to deal 10 poison counters very quickly in a variety of ways:
- With Vector Asp and Immolating Souleater in the graveyard you can swing for lethal with Necrotic Ooze.
- Birthing Pod allows you to chain between Vector Asp, the Souleater and the Ooze (activating the pod for Deciever Exarch allows you to untap the pod and skip straight to Necrotic Ooze)
- Tainted Strike can serve as a replacement for Vector Asp
- Fauna Shaman finds the pieces you need and even puts them in the graveyard for you.
- The token from Nest Invader can be sacrificed to the pod to search for Vector Asp/Death's Shadow/Hex Parasite.
- Inkmoth Nexus can also be 'podded' into one of the above. It can also finish off an opponent if required.
- Death's Shadow can be used as a pseudo Ooze in situations where you have low life and a Tainted Strike in hand.
- Bloodghast can be recurred for 'podding' into Ooze.
- Postmortem Lunge can be used to combo off in one turn (useful with Fauna Shaman in particular).
- Hex Parasite can also be used to lower your life total for the Death's Shadow + Tainted Strike combo. If an opponent has a planeswalker out it can also be used to kill it/hit hard with tainted strike (Necrotic Ooze can use its ability too).
- Some decks just lose to a resolved Phyrexian Crusader.
Phew. That's about it I think. The list is in no way set in stone, I only just put it together. What are your thoughts?
Opinions? Additions? How many of each? I've never built a sideboard before. This is my first T2 deck since Mirage.
Necropede is probably the best artifact infect creature available. I suggest taking out any of your other creatures for it, signal pest being the best choice.
I've been thinking about running a build using Grand Architect to play more dudes and pump them +1/+1. Ichor Wellspring seems like it would fit in quite nicely in such a build. I'll see if I can put together a list. Are there any other blue utility creatures that would be useful (and that don't have too much power so they don't go to waste in combat)?
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Preordain
4 Treasure Hunt
4 Explore
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burst Lightning
4 Staggershock
Lands (25)
4 Mountain
4 Island
1 Forest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Copperline Gorge
2 Halimar Depths
2 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Deciever Exarch
3 Splinter Twin
4 Lotus Cobra
2 Inferno Titan
2 Spell Pierce
I've played 22 lands, no edges in every pyromancer deck I've made so far but you make a persuasive argument. I'll probably run 24 lands, 3 edges this week.
@Terrapin Guts: I remember you saying a while ago that you'd just bought a bunch of splinter twins. I'd been thinking about playing the combo but had totally forgot to actually buy the cards. I jumped on eBay way back when you first said that and bought 10 for $1 each too Thanks man
This man speaks the truth. The question becomes, do you want to be attacking or defending? Both are valid strategies in a Pyromancer list. If you want to be attacking, play Commando. If you want to defend and sit behind counterspells, play Jace. Here's my PTQ list as a demonstration of the latter:
4 Spell Pierce
4 Mana Leak
4 See Beyond
4 Trapmaker's Snare
2 Jace Beleren
4 Archive Trap
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Pyromancer Ascension
Land
1 Halimar Depths
9 Island
8 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarns
2 Neurok COmmando
1 Corrupted Conscience
1 Ravenous Trap
3 Kiln Fiend
4 Pyroclasm
4 Staggershock
This is pre NPH obviously and although I'm playing standard at FNM this week I wouldn't play the list again. I did well with it at the time (I lost 1 of my games to mono-green and the other because of play errors) because the people weren't expecting it, it has a good MU against caw-blade, it punishes players running lots of fetchlands (the trick was not losing the first round and playing against more budget decks :P) and sideboarding was a hilarious mind game. However, this is the list I'll be running this week.
4 Spell Pierce
4 See Beyond
3 Neurok Commando
4 Burst Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Staggershock
4 Pyromancer Ascension
5 Island
6 Mountain
3 Halimar Depths
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Mana Leak
1 Trapmaker's Snare
2 Archive Trap
4 Arc Trail
4 Kiln Fiend
Sadly, this list is for the awkward tournaments between now and release. I want to play with Gitaxian Probe soo bad
I feel like there can be two very different versions of this deck: Blue-Red for Spell Pierce (no bushwackers) or straight R with creatures other than just the fiend and souleater (inc bushwackers/summons).
Personally, I like the UR version better. You are putting all your eggs in one basket but it looks more fun
I understand why people dislike the card at first glance, it doesn't look that good on paper. The reasoning behind playing it is that this deck (straight ascension, not splinter twin) wins by playing spells. You play spells, they go in the graveyard, you play more of the same spells, your spells are now doubled and you win by playing more of the same spells - this is the core idea of Pyromancer Ascension decks. Now, In most versions of the deck these 'spells' are either burn spells or counterspells, both of which try to keep the board clear of threats in the early game. Commando allows you to benefit from continuing this board clearance into the middle of the game, where usually you would have to start aiming your spells at your opponent's face if you don't want to run out of gas. I'm not sure how well I've explained this but the main idea behind playing Neuromancer is that he gives you cards for playing your other cards.
I should mention that I played Pyromancer Ascension in a PTQ recently (went 4-2) with a list that ran 3 mini Jaces, playsets of Trap and Snare maindeck and no maindecked Commandos. The card does not work by itself to generate CA like Jace does, but within the shell of burn heavy ascension list it functions in a similar way but with a higher risk and higher reward (I sided them in with the rest of my burn every time).
My god, so good! Here's my changes:
4 Kiln Fiend
3 Goblin Bushwacker
2 Devastating Summons
4 Assault Strobe
2 Fling
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Forked Bolt
3 Gut Shot
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Apostle's Blessing
18 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Goblin Bushwacker
2 Devastating Summons
2 Fling
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Forked Bolt
3 Gut Shot
3 Mental Misstep
Lands (22)
16 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Smoldering Spires
Mental Misstep I'm not entirely sold on but the idea is to be able to counter an early IoK (saving your fiend) or a combo-ending 1cmc removal spell like bolt/burst (or Dispatch? Who knows).
It's not that you 'can't', just that the deck doesn't want to have to run cards that do.
I think it's fine as a one-of. It can win the game with a tainted strike in the right situation. I'll give the deck some testing tomorrow and see if that situation ever actually comes up
Here's the list I'm working with:
4 Birds of Paradise (G)
1 Death's Shadow (B)
1 Hex Parasite (1)
1 Vector Asp (1)
3 Immolating Souleater (2)
1 Nest Invader (1G)
4 Lotus Cobra (1G)
4 Fauna Shaman (1G)
1 Stoneforge Mystic (1W)
1 Bloodghast (BB)
1 Trespassing Souleater (3)
1 Deciever Exarch (2U)
1 Phyrexian Crusader (1BB)
1 Viridian Corrupter (1GG)
3 Necrotic Ooze (2BB)
3 Birthing Pod
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Postmortem Lunge
3 Tainted Strike
Lands
4 Forest
8 Swamp
1 Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Inkmoth Nexus
There's some greedy stuff in here (*cough*Stoneforge) but I want to test how reliably they can be cast/podded into. I've also shifted a little more of the deck's focus towards the turn 3 Immolating Souleater + Tainted Strike combo. If other elements of the deck don't work out, I wouldn't mind adding a fourth of both.
4 Birds of Paradise (G)
1 Death's Shadow (B)
1 Hex Parasite (1)
3 Vector Asp (1)
1 Immolating Souleater (2)
1 Myr Superion (2)
1 Nest Invader (1G)
4 Lotus Cobra (1G)
4 Fauna Shaman (1G)
1 Bloodchast (BB)
2 Deciever Exarch (2U)
1 Phyrexian Crusader (1BB)
4 Necrotic Ooze (2BB)
4 Birthing Pod
2 Postmortem Lunge
3 Tainted Strike
Lands
9 Forest
8 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Inkmoth Nexus
The main focus of the deck is to deal 10 poison counters very quickly in a variety of ways:
- With Vector Asp and Immolating Souleater in the graveyard you can swing for lethal with Necrotic Ooze.
- Birthing Pod allows you to chain between Vector Asp, the Souleater and the Ooze (activating the pod for Deciever Exarch allows you to untap the pod and skip straight to Necrotic Ooze)
- Tainted Strike can serve as a replacement for Vector Asp
- Fauna Shaman finds the pieces you need and even puts them in the graveyard for you.
- The token from Nest Invader can be sacrificed to the pod to search for Vector Asp/Death's Shadow/Hex Parasite.
- Inkmoth Nexus can also be 'podded' into one of the above. It can also finish off an opponent if required.
- Death's Shadow can be used as a pseudo Ooze in situations where you have low life and a Tainted Strike in hand.
- Bloodghast can be recurred for 'podding' into Ooze.
- Postmortem Lunge can be used to combo off in one turn (useful with Fauna Shaman in particular).
- Hex Parasite can also be used to lower your life total for the Death's Shadow + Tainted Strike combo. If an opponent has a planeswalker out it can also be used to kill it/hit hard with tainted strike (Necrotic Ooze can use its ability too).
- Some decks just lose to a resolved Phyrexian Crusader.
Phew. That's about it I think. The list is in no way set in stone, I only just put it together. What are your thoughts?
Edit: Trespassing Souleater seems like it could work.
What he means is that See Beyond, technically, only digs for two cards and after it has resolved you have only 'drawn' a single card.
Necropede is probably the best artifact infect creature available. I suggest taking out any of your other creatures for it, signal pest being the best choice.
I've been thinking about running a build using Grand Architect to play more dudes and pump them +1/+1. Ichor Wellspring seems like it would fit in quite nicely in such a build. I'll see if I can put together a list. Are there any other blue utility creatures that would be useful (and that don't have too much power so they don't go to waste in combat)?