In goldfishing, I find it difficult to push the deck to combo out on turn 2 consistently, since, as you say, you really need a hand with a Nettle and a Heritage Druid to go nuts. Turn 3 combo is much more reliable.
Anyway, Steve is bringing this next Thursday. So, fair warning - pack up those Perishes!
I'm putting together an Elfball deck too, and I'm wondering what goes into the sideboard.
Seems like Elves' easiest matchups will be aggro or fish decks that don't run enough early disruption, since the Elves can go off so early.
Ichorid seems a fair matchup, since Ich can't disrupt too much, and you can actually race them through your deck. So I'm not sure any anti-graveyard tech is really needed.
It occurs to me that the Elves' biggest problem will be Chalice @1, Sphere of Resistence effects, and disruption (especially countermagic) that focuses on the Clamps / Glimpses. Problem is, I'm not sure what to do about that.
Say you run more Viridian Shamans or Krosan Grips to deal with the artifacts. That's fine, but now you've got to ramp up to 3 mana PLUS the mana to go off with, so you're delayed by two turns at least. At those two turns are likely all the other side needs to drop MORE disruption (Staxx) or win (Tezz). And countermagic? What can be done about that?
I'm seeing people in this thread suggest either a black splash, for thoughtseize, or a blue splash (for annul, time walk, countermagic).
What about a Red splash? You're already in Red for Grapeshot. Red answers countermagic with Red Elemental Blast, and answers artifacts with Artifact Blast, Ancient Grudge, etc.
I've been kicking around the idea of a Wizard control deck for vintage, designed to take advantage of Vedalken Aethermage as a Wizard toolbox. This would be geared towards a budget build and a mostly unpowered vintage meta. Here's what I'm currently thinking of testing out:
The idea would be to destabilize the opponent with early Cursecatchers, Daze, and FoW, and then build up to solid control with Voidmage by dropping wizards every turn.
The appeal of this deck is that, like Goblins with Goblin Matron, Vedalkan Aethermage fetches any creature in the deck. So, if the ground is stalled, you can tutor up a Gempalm to fly over for lethal. If you need to slow down Staxx, grab a Stern Protctor to bounce whatever is giving you trouble or a Magus of the Unseen to steal artifact creatures.
That said, I'm not sure this sort of build could be made fast enough to get a grip before an opposing deck goes off, and I don't know what it would do against untargetable opposing creatures. Anyone ever run something like this? Have suggestions or thoughts?
I ran the GW decklist, with a few changes, at a local sanctioned event. My changes were due to card availability, such as Joten Grunts in for the Tarmagoyfs, and a lack of Wasteland. The list I ran was strictly inferior to the GW Meandecks list.
Anyway, in four rounds, my only trouble was with random.dec. Match one against Belcher was won on the weight of two first turn Gaddok Teegs. Interestingly, the one game of that match that I was on the draw, Belcher went off turn one and never gave me a chance to drop the Teeg!
I lost took match four against Oath, running a defensive build with Empyrial Archangel. Game one was no contest, with first turn seal of cleansing and second turn seal of primordium. Second game went to Oath, with me not being able to draw a single green mana source for about eight turns. Game three, I had to mulligan down to four, but eventually Tarriffed away the Angel with dual Shusher activation backup and then won with a topdecked Quasli Pridemage.
I dropped Round 2 (2-0) against a random all blue unpowered deck running Back to Basics and winning with Draining Whelk, but I am convinced that I blew it because I didn't play around his deck correctly. Pilot error.
Round 3 (2-1) was a black/white control/aggro deck with Nantuko Shades and heavy black discard. Again, pilot error cost this one. I was not paying attention and he demonic tutored through my midcensor.
So, yes, this deck has game. But for pilot error, it would have taken all comers I saw.
>>> UPDATE <<<
Or... maybe not.
I ran the deck again in a no-proxy tournament on Sunday. I tried to meta for generic aggro I expected to see, upping the creature removal, going GW only to make the mana base more resilient to wasteland, and including Icatian Javelineer to snipe down gro and fish style unpowered decks. While my expectations were correct, the deck pretty much failed on all fronts.
Match one was against The Rock or something similar. That deck did not care if I could stop artifacts, enchantments, countermagic, or small critters, and so the game was no contest. 0-2.
Match two was against a very interesting Selkie variant running a land toolbox with crop rotation, and Kudzu as the beater. I could keep the lid on for awhile in those games where I landed a javelineer to snipe down his creatures before they grew, but as soon as they got past 1/1 I had to hope to topdeck creature removal. Again, my disruption was basically worthless. 1-2.
Match three was the only one I won, against a GU fish deck running Lorescale as the primary win condition. Vexing Shushers were strong here, permitting me to push out creature removal for the Lorescales and weenie my way to victory. Even so, my artifact and enchantment disruption fell flat and the match was again just down to topdecking removal. 2-1.
Match four was against a RGw land destruction deck running Grim Lavamancers as removal and Greater Gargadon as win condition. Game one I got hosed by wastelands before I knew what I was playing. Game two and three I kept my mana base safe, and even kept him off of his own mana development with a nice Katari / Null Rod combo that stripped him of his artifact mana. Sadly, AGAIN, my deck's disruption pretty much missed the mark and the match went down to who topdecked more removal for the other side's creatures. 1-2.
The final match was against a pretty standard GU fish deck. This deck simply ramrodded me, but by this point I was not playing very well and probably kept hands I should have mulliganed away in favor of an early Vexing Shusher. 0-2.
I guess my conclusions are this. First off, I'm sure I made some errors of my own in piloting this deck, but none as severe as the silly ones from the first time I tried it. Also, the unpowered meta probably meant that this deck was a very poor choice. There were Staxx and Tezz players around, but the majority were just winning with creatures and this deck wasn't built to handle them. The fundemental problem with this deck is that, unless it has enemy artifacts, enchantments, and countermagic to hate on, it devolves into a deck full of grizzly bears.
Another interesting observation: two of the players who whupped GW Beatz were kind enough to play a second, casual match against a Suiblack deck I had with me. The Suiblack deck won handily in all of those matchups; I had not anticipated that it would be so good against fish-type decks. For the future, I will certainly bear in mind the lessons I learned here about paying attention to the meta!
(P.S. to the professional deck designer who suggested I put Abyssal Persecutors and Phyrexian Towers in my Suiblack deck: If I gave offense with my comment about the price of the card, it was unintended. You're correct, of course, and a deck including the cards you mentioned would likely be superior for most purposes to the deck as it exists. I do think we're on different ends of the design spectrum, that's all - I recognize that paying attention to card cost does basically cripple me by adding "more rules" to the metagame that other players don't have to respect. When my income substantially increases, perhaps I'll take your advice.)
Good point about Gravestorm. I had neglected that it only counted permanents. What if one replaced the Cabal Rituals with Blood Pets or the BB Thrull? Keeps the aggro coming, sacs to fuel gravestorm. I've seen other gravestorm decks that rely on Greater Gargadon, but I feel like you'd want to make your deck solely around the Gargadon then, not on the interaction with Cosi, which is not what I'm going for.
I really like the idea of Memory Lapse here because (1) the deck really wants to play a black source first turn, not necessarily a blue source, so drain mana won't be up right away; and (2) Memory Lapse has synergy with shuffling effects. Dunno though.
I guess one could run Extract or more Cabal Therapy, like you're suggesting, but the big bonus with Bitter Ordeal is that it beats counters and puts multiple counters on Cosi.
Since the printing of Cosi's Trickster, I've been wondering where it might find a home in Vintage. Certainly, with the number of fetches and tutors around, Cosi is likely a 3/3 or better consistently against most decks. That's pretty good for blue, but not so impressive compared to other aggro decks. I was thinking about productive ways of making Cosi bigger early that are also good tactics on their own, and I've settled on Extract-type effects. I'm starting a thread to collect some comments and suggestions as I put this deck together and give it a whirl.
Creatures
---------
4 Cosi's Trickster
2 Tombstalker
3 Dark Confidant
Business Time
---------
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Bitter Ordeal
1 Extirpate
2 Sadistic Sacrement
Tutor Suite
---------
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yagwmoth's Will
1 Intuition
1 Vampiric Tutor
Land
---------
8 Fetches
4 Underground Sea / Watery Grave
4 Island
4 Swamp
Here's the idea. The deck wants to either: (1) land a Cosi and suppress the opponent for a turn or two with counters until shuffle effects plus extract effects have made her into a beater; or (2) lead with extract effects to nueter the opposing deck and then land a tombstalker for beats.
No Force of Will because I think the blue count is perhaps too low. Full set of Bitter Ordeal because gravestorm overcomes countermagic and can potentially blow out a combo deck with a few rits on turn 1. Sadistic Sacrement over more Extirpate because the deck wants to be pro-active, acting before there is much in the graveyard. No power because I currently own none, though I'm sure a powered list might be more appropriate.
Problems I see with what I'm doing: No game at all against aggro, shop, or ichorid. Sideboarding could deal with these issues, but the deck's fundemental angle - extract effects - leaves the gameplan for these kind of decks totally untouched.
After some comments, I'll build up the deck and play in a few tournaments to see how it goes.
Is the "Planeswalker Rule" just a subset of the "Legendary" rule, or something different entirely?
In goldfishing, I find it difficult to push the deck to combo out on turn 2 consistently, since, as you say, you really need a hand with a Nettle and a Heritage Druid to go nuts. Turn 3 combo is much more reliable.
Anyway, Steve is bringing this next Thursday. So, fair warning - pack up those Perishes!
Seems like Elves' easiest matchups will be aggro or fish decks that don't run enough early disruption, since the Elves can go off so early.
Ichorid seems a fair matchup, since Ich can't disrupt too much, and you can actually race them through your deck. So I'm not sure any anti-graveyard tech is really needed.
It occurs to me that the Elves' biggest problem will be Chalice @1, Sphere of Resistence effects, and disruption (especially countermagic) that focuses on the Clamps / Glimpses. Problem is, I'm not sure what to do about that.
Say you run more Viridian Shamans or Krosan Grips to deal with the artifacts. That's fine, but now you've got to ramp up to 3 mana PLUS the mana to go off with, so you're delayed by two turns at least. At those two turns are likely all the other side needs to drop MORE disruption (Staxx) or win (Tezz). And countermagic? What can be done about that?
I'm seeing people in this thread suggest either a black splash, for thoughtseize, or a blue splash (for annul, time walk, countermagic).
What about a Red splash? You're already in Red for Grapeshot. Red answers countermagic with Red Elemental Blast, and answers artifacts with Artifact Blast, Ancient Grudge, etc.
What do ya'll think?
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Voidmage Prodigy
2 Azorius Guildmage
4 Vedalken Aethermage
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Gempalm Sorcerer
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Riptide Director
2 Stern Proctor
2 Taurean Mauler
1 Magus of the Unseen
4 Force of Will
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Sol Ring
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
4 Island
3 Mountain
The idea would be to destabilize the opponent with early Cursecatchers, Daze, and FoW, and then build up to solid control with Voidmage by dropping wizards every turn.
The appeal of this deck is that, like Goblins with Goblin Matron, Vedalkan Aethermage fetches any creature in the deck. So, if the ground is stalled, you can tutor up a Gempalm to fly over for lethal. If you need to slow down Staxx, grab a Stern Protctor to bounce whatever is giving you trouble or a Magus of the Unseen to steal artifact creatures.
That said, I'm not sure this sort of build could be made fast enough to get a grip before an opposing deck goes off, and I don't know what it would do against untargetable opposing creatures. Anyone ever run something like this? Have suggestions or thoughts?
Anyway, in four rounds, my only trouble was with random.dec. Match one against Belcher was won on the weight of two first turn Gaddok Teegs. Interestingly, the one game of that match that I was on the draw, Belcher went off turn one and never gave me a chance to drop the Teeg!
I lost took match four against Oath, running a defensive build with Empyrial Archangel. Game one was no contest, with first turn seal of cleansing and second turn seal of primordium. Second game went to Oath, with me not being able to draw a single green mana source for about eight turns. Game three, I had to mulligan down to four, but eventually Tarriffed away the Angel with dual Shusher activation backup and then won with a topdecked Quasli Pridemage.
I dropped Round 2 (2-0) against a random all blue unpowered deck running Back to Basics and winning with Draining Whelk, but I am convinced that I blew it because I didn't play around his deck correctly. Pilot error.
Round 3 (2-1) was a black/white control/aggro deck with Nantuko Shades and heavy black discard. Again, pilot error cost this one. I was not paying attention and he demonic tutored through my midcensor.
So, yes, this deck has game. But for pilot error, it would have taken all comers I saw.
>>> UPDATE <<<
Or... maybe not.
I ran the deck again in a no-proxy tournament on Sunday. I tried to meta for generic aggro I expected to see, upping the creature removal, going GW only to make the mana base more resilient to wasteland, and including Icatian Javelineer to snipe down gro and fish style unpowered decks. While my expectations were correct, the deck pretty much failed on all fronts.
Match one was against The Rock or something similar. That deck did not care if I could stop artifacts, enchantments, countermagic, or small critters, and so the game was no contest. 0-2.
Match two was against a very interesting Selkie variant running a land toolbox with crop rotation, and Kudzu as the beater. I could keep the lid on for awhile in those games where I landed a javelineer to snipe down his creatures before they grew, but as soon as they got past 1/1 I had to hope to topdeck creature removal. Again, my disruption was basically worthless. 1-2.
Match three was the only one I won, against a GU fish deck running Lorescale as the primary win condition. Vexing Shushers were strong here, permitting me to push out creature removal for the Lorescales and weenie my way to victory. Even so, my artifact and enchantment disruption fell flat and the match was again just down to topdecking removal. 2-1.
Match four was against a RGw land destruction deck running Grim Lavamancers as removal and Greater Gargadon as win condition. Game one I got hosed by wastelands before I knew what I was playing. Game two and three I kept my mana base safe, and even kept him off of his own mana development with a nice Katari / Null Rod combo that stripped him of his artifact mana. Sadly, AGAIN, my deck's disruption pretty much missed the mark and the match went down to who topdecked more removal for the other side's creatures. 1-2.
The final match was against a pretty standard GU fish deck. This deck simply ramrodded me, but by this point I was not playing very well and probably kept hands I should have mulliganed away in favor of an early Vexing Shusher. 0-2.
I guess my conclusions are this. First off, I'm sure I made some errors of my own in piloting this deck, but none as severe as the silly ones from the first time I tried it. Also, the unpowered meta probably meant that this deck was a very poor choice. There were Staxx and Tezz players around, but the majority were just winning with creatures and this deck wasn't built to handle them. The fundemental problem with this deck is that, unless it has enemy artifacts, enchantments, and countermagic to hate on, it devolves into a deck full of grizzly bears.
Another interesting observation: two of the players who whupped GW Beatz were kind enough to play a second, casual match against a Suiblack deck I had with me. The Suiblack deck won handily in all of those matchups; I had not anticipated that it would be so good against fish-type decks. For the future, I will certainly bear in mind the lessons I learned here about paying attention to the meta!
(P.S. to the professional deck designer who suggested I put Abyssal Persecutors and Phyrexian Towers in my Suiblack deck: If I gave offense with my comment about the price of the card, it was unintended. You're correct, of course, and a deck including the cards you mentioned would likely be superior for most purposes to the deck as it exists. I do think we're on different ends of the design spectrum, that's all - I recognize that paying attention to card cost does basically cripple me by adding "more rules" to the metagame that other players don't have to respect. When my income substantially increases, perhaps I'll take your advice.)
I really like the idea of Memory Lapse here because (1) the deck really wants to play a black source first turn, not necessarily a blue source, so drain mana won't be up right away; and (2) Memory Lapse has synergy with shuffling effects. Dunno though.
I guess one could run Extract or more Cabal Therapy, like you're suggesting, but the big bonus with Bitter Ordeal is that it beats counters and puts multiple counters on Cosi.
If one was to stay unpowered, what about this?
---------
4 Cosi's Trickster
2 Flesh Reaver
3 Dark Confidant
Business Time
---------
4 Dark Ritual
4 Blood Pet
2 Bitter Ordeal
1 Extirpate
4 Sadistic Sacrement
---------
4 Duress / Thoughtseize
4 Spell Pierce
3 Memory Lapse
2 Null Rod
Tutor Suite
---------
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yagwmoth's Will
1 Intuition
1 Vampiric Tutor
---------
8 Fetches
4 Underground Sea / Watery Grave
3 Island
3 Swamp
Creatures
---------
4 Cosi's Trickster
2 Tombstalker
3 Dark Confidant
Business Time
---------
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Bitter Ordeal
1 Extirpate
2 Sadistic Sacrement
Disruption
---------
4 Duress / Thoughtseize
4 Spell Pierce
3 Memory Lapse
Tutor Suite
---------
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yagwmoth's Will
1 Intuition
1 Vampiric Tutor
Land
---------
8 Fetches
4 Underground Sea / Watery Grave
4 Island
4 Swamp
Here's the idea. The deck wants to either: (1) land a Cosi and suppress the opponent for a turn or two with counters until shuffle effects plus extract effects have made her into a beater; or (2) lead with extract effects to nueter the opposing deck and then land a tombstalker for beats.
No Force of Will because I think the blue count is perhaps too low. Full set of Bitter Ordeal because gravestorm overcomes countermagic and can potentially blow out a combo deck with a few rits on turn 1. Sadistic Sacrement over more Extirpate because the deck wants to be pro-active, acting before there is much in the graveyard. No power because I currently own none, though I'm sure a powered list might be more appropriate.
Problems I see with what I'm doing: No game at all against aggro, shop, or ichorid. Sideboarding could deal with these issues, but the deck's fundemental angle - extract effects - leaves the gameplan for these kind of decks totally untouched.
After some comments, I'll build up the deck and play in a few tournaments to see how it goes.
-C