Indeed that's interesting. It gets you Infinite Colorless mana... Then you would just need a spellbomb to draw your deck. Which would in turn, open up Blue Sun's Zenith or even Maga, Traitor to mortals as the win con... And further more... Maga is a human wizard, which completely synergizes with Cavern of Souls haha... (Deal with that Mr. Remand)
It's just so many cards needed to combo out though.
I definitely see something like this being viable, basically a mix of Esper Control with a gifts package for an end game.
I would highly recommended Esper Charm is very flexiable and 2 cards for 3 mana at instant speed cant be over stated.
Yeah, Endgame it's beautiful, but even at Mid-range sometimes, Iona in play on turn 4-5 = blowout.
Yes, I love me some Esper Charm... the only thing is, is that it fights for a slot with Thirst For Knowledge (which is easier to cast), but the modes on charm are amazing:
A: Meh, pop enchantment? relevant in some situations like UR Storm
B: Draw Two, pretty amazing when you need to dig
C: Target Discards Two... This is amazing with Liliana... you can either blow up your opponents hand and/or discard some fatties
Another card I have found to be amazing with Gifts that i feel is very unrated is Noxious Revival. With Snapcaster and Revival as part of your Gifts package, u can get any card from your deck on top of ur library (by end of your opponents turning gifts, then casting Revival, with snap if they put it in the graveyard and then drawing, also helps get back any cards u make have been forced to discard).
Yeah, I had a revival on my board, was pretty good to get back random stuff, like lands, etc.
You have any current lists? I mean I feel like the Talisman are best post-shaman ramp, is there anything that I am missing? do they ramp at all? Thanks
Also, I am not 100% sold on manabase, I kinda just threw this together... With 6 fetches, 5 Talisman, 1 thoughtseize and 4 Shocks... RDW could be an abysmal matchup Game 1... Gotta B-line to Iona-Red... This is why I have disfigures all over place and really wanna add Esper charm... Need to keep the steam away from them. Lili and Wrath is way too slow in that matchup I am finding.
You should visit the Tezzerator's thread, I have made a UWR Tezz-Bomberman list. Bomberman is awesome with EE+ Pyrite+ Aether. If you are under a Ensnaring bridge you could win with Bomber + Pyrite. Is a great idea!
Yeah, I feel like that could be a legit control strategy in Modern. Thanks!
Ok... First of all, I know what you're thinking. It's true, Auriok Salvagers only really works with Black Lotus, meh with Lion's Eye Diamond... and impossible with Lotus Bloom... However, I'm Thinking more of the way the deck plays in Vintage... The control way... Maybe even incorporating some Eggs combo to occasionally win...
So, I recently got into Modern. I wanted to brew something different but wanted to play 4C Gifts, until the banning of DRS. Also, I had the cards to make this. I just want to discuss this deck. I felt it improper to put this in 4C gifts thread, since this takes the deck back to its roots (I played Solar Flare in Standard. Kamigawa-Ravnica days). I'm showing some promising results (went 4-0 at an FNM vs. Tier decks) and the list is far from optimal but I'm liking it so far. (Maybe one day a viable replacement post-DRS ban)
Also I'm thinking a lot about Esper Charm md and a 3rd fattie: Grave Titan...
Also need a 3rd Manland for MD, ideas?(so that you can gifts for 3 diff manlands if needed):
Just my opinion on the matter; I'd rather have to manage my life total more closely than strand cards in my hand because I can't do things like Brainstorm in response to something to protect from discard/disruption.
Yes. Speed/Library manipulation > life total; with TES
Really I dont see how you can shock yourself with an engine that needs your life total.
I rarely cast Ad Nauseam unless I have the nuts. Either case, AN is bad by turn 4 most of the time, especially against burn. Even Cracking 2 fetches for 2 Shocks still let you cast AN at 14 life, which is usually good enough if early.
I would probably run invasion sac lands before I ran shocks, it makes the deck different since your fetches are worse (or non existent)
Though i see your point, you really need fetches or your brainstorms become bad. Sac lands are no-go IMO, cause it sets you back an entire turn. Sometimes you need to do things on the previous turn, else your turn 4 win is now turn 5, or turn 1 is now 2, etc.
I've won so many times on the play vs. Aggro cause you just make 12 goblins and pass turn
Thanks for your explanation, that was really helpful.
I'm also concerned about not having Past in Flames maindeck, there were games where I could've Tutored for PiF and win right away, but instead I had to wish for it first. Generally speaking, PiF was by far most common Wish target so far.
Considering swapping 1 Burning Wish MD for 1 Past in Flames, but I'll test some more first (have a local Legacy tournament today)...
I agree with the above poster, PiF and IGG are situational cards and only shine MD vs a few matches. I assume you couldn't tutor AN instead of PiF in those situations you speak of?
That's the beauty of TES, with PiF SB, your average mana curve is like 1.05... Meaning once you've cast AN you'll lose 1 life on average. So unless your Mana was absolutely the wrong color, or you were <7~9 life, you may have wanted to Tutor --> AN instead, normally, an early enough AN allows you to Wish into PiF/IGGy or straight Tendrils.
Also, did you wish for PiF the turn before you combo'ed? And still won? If you still won, you shouldn't change your MD haha.
IMO I would keep the mana curve as low as possible.
New to TES, why does Cook's list has 1 Empty the Warrens as only MD win condition? Shouldn't it be Tendrils of Agony instead?
It's Naturally a meta call IMO. However, in the large metas that I used TES in/also in general, you can more often than not just make 12-18 Goblins on turn 1 and pass. With Gprobes, you can Gprobe turn 1 before you even make a land drop. You notice your opponent has 0 disruption or is piloting Goblins/Maverick/passive disruption. EtW is easy to cast and so you can just make for fast goblins.
In my experience really fast goblin tokens are better vs U Tempo decks, CBTop, And Maverick/Merfolk/Goblins, especially Game 1.
Tendrils in General is better if you have the mana/life to AN. Also Tendrils is for more late game. Setup with protection and sculpt hand with extra tutors/rits to all-in late game tendrils (or later game, like turn 3-6).
In other words I usually only Tendrils if I have the nut hand (chant-protected AN on turn 1-2)
Or my first wish was countered and I setup for a second time.
Some matches like Miracles, board in multi EE/Terminus when you win game 1 with Gobbos, so you can board in Abrupt Decay (if they run CBTop) board in Tendrils and out EtW, etc.
Also with Burning Wish you only need 1 MD win con. Wish gives you flexibility to go into Past in flames/ IGG loops, or Diminishing returns or EtW as a safe play, Tendrils to win. And You can always Infernal --> Wish --> Past in Flames --> all the rits --> Infernal --> wish --> Tendrils.
Don't be afraid to wait until turn three (or even four sometimes) for the certain kill. Blazing fast aggro decks like Zoo are basically dead in legacy right now. Playing TES, you are almost always the faster deck, and usually by several turns.
And the decks that are faster can usually be turned inside out with a well placed disruption spell. Belcher, for example, only has something like a 12% chance of actually killing you on turn one (Empty the warrens, even for 20 goblins, doesn't actually kill you).
Patience with a combo deck is really hard though. The fun of decks like TES is in those blazing fast kills, which makes the patience bit irritating.
This, I rarely lose to belcher.
Belcher pilot HAS to go first and HAS to Belch you. Normally you can take 1 Swing from 12-18 Goblins and still win, as belcher has 0 disruption. So most of time you can wait till turn 3 and win, if you haven't lost yet. Also, TES waits 1 more turn and makes MORE goblins haha.
Indeed that's interesting. It gets you Infinite Colorless mana... Then you would just need a spellbomb to draw your deck. Which would in turn, open up Blue Sun's Zenith or even Maga, Traitor to mortals as the win con... And further more... Maga is a human wizard, which completely synergizes with Cavern of Souls haha... (Deal with that Mr. Remand)
It's just so many cards needed to combo out though.
Also, Aven Mindcensor to really screw with mana bases lol
Yeah, Endgame it's beautiful, but even at Mid-range sometimes, Iona in play on turn 4-5 = blowout.
Yes, I love me some Esper Charm... the only thing is, is that it fights for a slot with Thirst For Knowledge (which is easier to cast), but the modes on charm are amazing:
A: Meh, pop enchantment? relevant in some situations like UR Storm
B: Draw Two, pretty amazing when you need to dig
C: Target Discards Two... This is amazing with Liliana... you can either blow up your opponents hand and/or discard some fatties
Yeah, I had a revival on my board, was pretty good to get back random stuff, like lands, etc.
You have any current lists? I mean I feel like the Talisman are best post-shaman ramp, is there anything that I am missing? do they ramp at all? Thanks
Also, I am not 100% sold on manabase, I kinda just threw this together... With 6 fetches, 5 Talisman, 1 thoughtseize and 4 Shocks... RDW could be an abysmal matchup Game 1... Gotta B-line to Iona-Red... This is why I have disfigures all over place and really wanna add Esper charm... Need to keep the steam away from them. Lili and Wrath is way too slow in that matchup I am finding.
Yeah, I feel like that could be a legit control strategy in Modern. Thanks!
So here is the idea:
4 Auriok Salvagers
3 Trinket Mage
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Grand Architect
1 Etherium Sculptor
2 Drift of Phantasms
Planeswalker
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
Instants
4 Path to Exile
3 Reshape
Artifacts
3 Mox Opal
4 Engineered explosives
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Pilli-Palla
1 Lotus Bloom
4 Chromatic Star
1 Cranial Plating
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Pithing Needle
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
3 Hallowed Fountain
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Plains
4 Island
Work in Progress... Splahes of pilli pala combo to Pyrite someone to death
Here is my current list:
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Artifacts
3 Talisman of Progress
2 Talisman of Dominance
Instants
4 Gifts Ungiven
3 Spell Snare
2 Path to Exile
1 Disfigure
1 Go For the Throat
3 Thirst for Knowledge
Sorcery
3 Lingering Souls
2 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Unburial Rites
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Liliana of the Veil
Land
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Glacial Fortress
3 Drowned Catacomb
3 Swan Song
2 Disfigure
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Detention Sphere
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Echoing Truth
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sundering Titan
1 Magister Sphinx
1 Thoughtseize
Debating with myself for that 4th Lingering Souls md...
Also I'm thinking a lot about Esper Charm md and a 3rd fattie: Grave Titan...
Also need a 3rd Manland for MD, ideas?(so that you can gifts for 3 diff manlands if needed):
Inkmoth Nexus
Mutavault
Faerie Conclave
Additional SB options:
Tidespout Tyrant
Mortify
Castigate
More counter/disruption
Sidenote:
Original build had 4x remand and 2x mana leak... Didn't like them in this deck, mostly cause you need the 2 drop mana ramp
Ideas, thoughts, concerns? Thanks.
Before I had candles in build, I was a big fan of RI. Also, the more you cast time spiral, the better RI becomes.
Yes. Speed/Library manipulation > life total; with TES
I rarely cast Ad Nauseam unless I have the nuts. Either case, AN is bad by turn 4 most of the time, especially against burn. Even Cracking 2 fetches for 2 Shocks still let you cast AN at 14 life, which is usually good enough if early.
It's not worth sacrificing speed with sac lands.
I would do 8 rainbow 2 fetch 2 shock. It's not the best but ok
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend Sac lands, I would do fetch into shocks before that...
Unfortunately, TES is one of those Highly tuned decks. LED is required to make the combo actually viable.
My TES mana base:
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
TES, being 5 color deck (2 of which come from rainbow lands), You must indeed keep 6 Rainbow.
What I would do, until getting the proper duals:
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Forbidden Orchard
Though i see your point, you really need fetches or your brainstorms become bad. Sac lands are no-go IMO, cause it sets you back an entire turn. Sometimes you need to do things on the previous turn, else your turn 4 win is now turn 5, or turn 1 is now 2, etc.
I've won so many times on the play vs. Aggro cause you just make 12 goblins and pass turn
Nice. I don't play Lands often, but I am a believer in 1-2 Gamble
I agree with the above poster, PiF and IGG are situational cards and only shine MD vs a few matches. I assume you couldn't tutor AN instead of PiF in those situations you speak of?
That's the beauty of TES, with PiF SB, your average mana curve is like 1.05... Meaning once you've cast AN you'll lose 1 life on average. So unless your Mana was absolutely the wrong color, or you were <7~9 life, you may have wanted to Tutor --> AN instead, normally, an early enough AN allows you to Wish into PiF/IGGy or straight Tendrils.
Also, did you wish for PiF the turn before you combo'ed? And still won? If you still won, you shouldn't change your MD haha.
IMO I would keep the mana curve as low as possible.
It's Naturally a meta call IMO. However, in the large metas that I used TES in/also in general, you can more often than not just make 12-18 Goblins on turn 1 and pass. With Gprobes, you can Gprobe turn 1 before you even make a land drop. You notice your opponent has 0 disruption or is piloting Goblins/Maverick/passive disruption. EtW is easy to cast and so you can just make for fast goblins.
In my experience really fast goblin tokens are better vs U Tempo decks, CBTop, And Maverick/Merfolk/Goblins, especially Game 1.
Tendrils in General is better if you have the mana/life to AN. Also Tendrils is for more late game. Setup with protection and sculpt hand with extra tutors/rits to all-in late game tendrils (or later game, like turn 3-6).
In other words I usually only Tendrils if I have the nut hand (chant-protected AN on turn 1-2)
Or my first wish was countered and I setup for a second time.
Some matches like Miracles, board in multi EE/Terminus when you win game 1 with Gobbos, so you can board in Abrupt Decay (if they run CBTop) board in Tendrils and out EtW, etc.
Also with Burning Wish you only need 1 MD win con. Wish gives you flexibility to go into Past in flames/ IGG loops, or Diminishing returns or EtW as a safe play, Tendrils to win. And You can always Infernal --> Wish --> Past in Flames --> all the rits --> Infernal --> wish --> Tendrils.
Not a bad idea, but enchantments are hard to get back if loamed away.
Krosan Grip is still better, as it answers moon and a lot of other nastiness.
This, I rarely lose to belcher.
Belcher pilot HAS to go first and HAS to Belch you. Normally you can take 1 Swing from 12-18 Goblins and still win, as belcher has 0 disruption. So most of time you can wait till turn 3 and win, if you haven't lost yet. Also, TES waits 1 more turn and makes MORE goblins haha.