Overextended is too much like Legacy lite, simple reason why WotC will never support it.
On the surface, this is a risk that Overextended runs. After all, with a larger card pool, it seems reasonable that the format would turn out more like Legacy. Indeed it is overwhelmingly logical that if Standard is the least like Legacy, Extended is more like Legacy, and Modern is even more like Legacy, then Overextended would be the most like Legacy (at least if adding sets is the way that a format approaches Legacy).
But in practice, this is completely untrue. Overextended tournaments are full of decks that never appear in Legacy events, with these unique Overextended archetypes consistently posting high finishes at the tables (take the word "unique" with a grain of salt, because a lot of these decks are admittedly imported from either Extended or old Standard tournaments). Here are some decks that have been going 4-0 in recent MTGO tournaments, alongside some Top 8 finishers from past MTGO events. Take a look at the tournament diversity (Source: http://mtgoverextended.com/category/tno/). Yes, there are some decks here that are similar to Legacy ones (Zoo, Dredge, Merfolk, etc.) But these decks are EXACTLY THE SAME as their Modern equivalents. So if you are worried about a deck being too similar to a Legacy version, then you need to think about that in the context of Modern as well.
Madness
Combo Elves
Zoo (Same as the Modern version)
UR Pyromancer's Ascension
Dragonstorm
Living End
Ooze Rock
Burn (Same as the Modern version)
White Weenie
Twelvepost
Enduring Ideal
Deceiver Twin
Scepter Chant
Tron Control
Scapeshift
RG Elves
Wizards
UW Stoneforge (Same as the Modern version)
BW Midrange (extremely different from the Legacy version)
The list goes on. I urge everyone to remember two facts about these lists:
1) The vast majority of these archetypes do NOT exist in Legacy. They are totally unique to a new eternal format (even if they were invented in an older extended/standard). Decks are absolutely lost from Overextended in Legacy.
2) Of the decks that are similar to Legacy ones (Zoo, Dredge, Stoneforge, etc.), these are decks which would ALSO exist in Modern! In fact, they would exist in Modern without losing anything from their Overextended version! So if you are worried about Overextended looking like Legacy Lite, then also worry about it for Modern as well.
Force of Will, Wasteland, Lion's Eye Diamond, Swords to Plowshares, Natural Order, etc. These are Legacy Staples that seriously define the metagame. Without them, the metagame has a huge shift. Overextended represents that change, and it is not under any circumstances a Legacy Lite ripoff. The decklists from tournaments prove this.
You miss out on a couple of things here; Adding more cards doesn't only add more viable strategies; it als removes others from the 'viable' list. Otherwise, standard decks would be viable in Legacy, since they were viable in a smaller card pool, not?
My point here is that the difference between Modern and Overextended are quite insignificant. Take modern and add more cards: lose x archetypes, gain x archetypes; or the other way around of course. It feels to me you really badly want to play certain cards; well, go make them work in Legacy, be creative. The new format is not intended to fully replace Legacy, at least not in the foreseeable future.
This sounds decent in theory, but in practice, it has not played out like this. The only test of Modern's health has been the community cup, and with the exception of Hypergenesis (banned in Overextended, SHOULD be banned in Modern), the decks that Modern players ran are the exact same as those we see every week in Overextended tournaments. Elves? Stoneforge? Burn? Living End? All of the Modern decks from the CC are mainstays in the Overextended events, a point which is proven weekly.
Indeed, this is the fact that a lot of people keep missing: Overextended has a ton of proven diversity in the weekly tournaments, and no decks are lost between Modern and Overextended. There are, however, a variety of decks that will be lost in the Overextended --> Modern shift. There are also a lot of staples which will also be lost. In this argument, the evidence is what is important. And the Overextended evidence has been clearly presented every week, whereas Modern has yet to submit any real evidence about its diversity. There are a lot of thought experiments about Modern's health, but no real and honest data. Overextended, on the other hand, gives that data every week.
How on earth can you say that when Modern was a PTQ format a year ago! Modern is what Extended was in the PT: San Juan qualifier season, with most of the degenerate combos banned! There's tons of playtesting put into the format already because the format once existed! You're seeing what you want to see.
Modern has old decks and new decks. It is silly to think that Modern is the exact same format as old Extended, especially when a variety of new cards clearly show that this is not true. I understand that you want to disagree with me, but look at the decklists in the format and see how different they are. Look at the new sets that have been gained, and see what those all offer. Three of Modern's decks in particular are either seriously improved or flat out new.
1) Hypergenesis, gaining Chancellor of the Annex and Tangle. Annex is particularly stupid in that deck, as it effectively Time Walks the opponent and makes the combo even harder to disrupt. Tangle allows for random turn 1 wins, or even turn 0 wins with Violent Outburst and Guide.
2) UW Stoneforge never existed in the old Extended. It does now, and that's a problem. The deck is extremely strong, both in Modern and Overextended. The big difference is that Overextended has more ways to fight it, both cards and archetypes. Stoneforge, Jace, Batterskull, Swords; these did not exist in the 2010 Extended season. That makes this deck totally different.
3) Twelvepost. It's scary in both formats, but with a smaller Modern card pool, it's even scarier. Tech such as Rith's Charm and Destructive Flow just do not exist in the format, which makes Twelvepost even more likely to run rampant. Rishadan Port and Dust Bowl also do not exist, and with a Masques cutoff, these would also be cards that could slow down the powerful Twelvepost engine.
As a whole, sure, Modern has similarities to old Extended. But this is a new format with new threats, and the list above shows three decks that are particularly problematic in Modern tournaments. Of course, we can't know for sure, because Wizards has not actually tested the new format in an honest setting with no artificial constraints. Overextended has already passed the diversity test, as each weekly tournament attests to. If Modern does this as well, then I would be a lot more on board with it. But without a real test of format health, we can't just say that "Modern is going to be healthy like old Extended." We have no evidence to suggest that. This is especially problematic because the PT San Juan season qualifier season of 2010 was part of the reason that Wizards had to revamp Extended anyway!
The advantage of Modern over any of the other format types is that WOTC has taken a direct interest. That is the only reason anyone needs - WOTC is much more willing to been interested in internal projects then external projects formed from ideas.
And while I agree that forced diversity is negligible at best in terms of results, if the Hypergenisis is banned, I do not think diversity will be an issue.
This is true. Wizards has definitely taken its own initiative with the Modern cutoff, and that gives it a leg up in that particular area. They are certainly more likely to consider their own format, because that reinforces their credibility and authority.
But that said, Magic has had two formats that were completely player made, ones that Wizards adopted. T1.5 became Legacy and EDH became Commander. Sure, these formats were not competing with one of Wizards' own formats. But they heard players! They listened to the community and its desires and they acted in the greater interest!
It is EASIER to support Modern. It is not the best format, but it is the easy way out. In fact, to support Modern, all you have to do is vote in a poll and that's it. But to support Overextended (which has so much more going for it), you need to commit a bit more. That commitment is what can drive a truly excellent eternal format that will withstand the test of time. NONE of this is to demean those players who have gone the extra mile in supporting Modern (the Modern supporters on MTGS all go this distance). But there is much more to be gained in Overextended, and the worry is that a lot of people don't go out and support Overextended because it looks like Modern has already won. This is not true. Wizards will listen to the community if the community makes its voice heard.
Always remember Tom LaPille's quote, on behalf of Wizards: "As I said, many of you have called for a non-rotating format that doesn't have the card availability problems of Legacy. We propose Modern as that format.
This represents only a proposal and an experiment."
No offense, but your desire for an Invasion/Masques starting point is completely clouding your ability to analyze things here.
I have really tried, on these forums and others, to puzzle through Modern vs. Overextended, analyzing the pros and cons of both. In every case, there is just no good reason that I can see to support Modern instead of Overextended. It's not that my support for the format is clouding my analysis. It's that my support for the format is based in a lot of analyses, and I do not want to see Modern take the stage over something that is clearly better.
Magic has a lot at stake in this format, and I just hope that it comes out as optimally as possible for the players and for the game. Modern does not represent that optimal format, because of an arbitrary starting point and substantially less card and deck diversity. Overextended, on the other hand, has a convincing and historically important starting point at Masques, and includes way more cards.
All in all, Modern is better than nothing. But at the moment, you really can't say "modern is diverse" when there has been no real and honest test of its diversity and health. The Community Cup does not show any real diversity because of its unique rules. If someone has evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it! But Overextended has plenty of evidence to show its own health and diversity, and that is what I base my support off of. I hope others do the same.
I agree. It looks like Modern will be a format. Now it's just when.
I sincerely hope that Wizards is not going to base an entire new format and the future of Magic on the opinion of 1000 people. This is especially stupid given that they have not actually tested the format yet in a real setting. The Community Cup was not a real test of format health because any one team was only allowed to play 4 copies of a card. This necessarily made the format appear diverse when in reality it might not be. Hypergenesis, Twelvepost, and UW Stoneforge seem completely out of control in Modern, and without a real tournament to showcase these decks, we can never know for sure.
Wizards is not going to jump ahead with something so important with only the results of a single poll. Naming a format (the Legacy polls from 2004) is one thing, but a real format is something entirely different. This debate is NOT over, and Wizards is not going to end it yet without more community input.
You know, the one that is actually banned in legacy.
You are definitely right that part of the initial reasoning for excluding Masques had to do with Daze/Brainstorm/Dark Ritual, and a worry that the format would look too much like Legacy with those cards. I am disagreeing with this initial logic because it gets rid of the whole block which is the best possible starting point. Masques is historically significant and a worthy point to start the new eternal format, and three cards should not get in the way of that. Gavin's first article about this was a good one, but I was not alone in disagreeing with his reasons for an Invasion cutoff. Ultimately, Gavin explained that the lack of Masques availability for MTGO players was also a big deciding point in his decision. Once that changes...this can all be reassessed (or even earlier if paper Overextended catches on!).
Gush would probably not be overpowered in the format. Here is an excerpt from a recent Legacy article on Starcitygames, written by Wes Wise, that explains why Gush is safe in Legacy:
2. Gush
Well, I really love to draw cards—so this is more hope than anything else. In my opinion drawing two cards for free in Vintage is a lot better than drawing two cards for free in Legacy. The games are usually a lot longer in Legacy since the cards you're drawing are a lot more balanced. I realize that comparing Vintage and Legacy is like comparing apples to oranges; however, time has proven that unrestricting Gush wasn't a huge mistake in Vintage, and this leads me to believe that its power level has been toned down enough to be fair in Legacy.
I feel like a number of combo decks could emerge if Gush were legal in the Legacy. A deck like ANT wouldn't be able to play it out of fear of hitting it off an Ad Nauseam. Also, the High Tide deck couldn't gain a lot of value from Gush. Time Spiral and High Tide aren't very synergistic with Gush.
Gush doesn't have anything like Mental Misstep to keep it in check, which is unfortunate, however the tempo loss a Legacy deck would suffer from using its alternate cost might be enough to level out its power. A bonus to unbanning Gush is that it would force people to play smarter with their Wastelands. If every land in your deck is “gushable” then your opponent will have to think twice about using Wasteland.
A lot of the decks that Gush helps are decks that really can't exist in Overextended. The lack of High Tide and "real" ANT (No LED and Ritual slows the deck down a lot) make the card a lot safer. I am sure that a deck would develop to use the card, but I do not think it would be that broken in this new format. Testing would be the ultimate arbiter, but I would gamble on it being safe. (I personally am more worried about Land Grant supplementing Belcher with no FoW to keep it in check).
You should probably stop calling it Legacy Lite if you want people to stop calling it that.
The tournament results prove nothing regarding people favoring Overextended versus Modern. They only show that lots and lots of people will show up for a freeroll tournament using cards that they own, unfortunately.
I did not post the lists to show that more people are favoring one format over the other. At no point in my post did I say this. I was simply showing that the format is itself popular, and that the decks in Overextended are quite diverse.
@ktkenshinx If those combo decks are already good without brainstorm, how good would they be with it?
On the other hand, those results don't mean much, since the format is not stablished and tier1/tier2/tier3 decks are not known by the players, they just play the deck they like and think will do best. But until the format becomes official and everybody, including pros, start playing it, we won't know its real form, be it overextended or modern. What I do know, however, is that 12post will be a good deck because it's the deck I've been working on since the modern announcement and it works very well, although the lists in that link are worse than mine hehe.
Oh, come on, LOL, have you looked at the lists, they need a lot of work. And I'm only looking at those which did 4-0. Look at the burn deck for instance, bad, bad deck. Where are the lavamancers? Arc trail? Hell's thunder? No lava spike. Looks like some guy with standard cards bought some shocklands and was ready to get some free tix!
Side note: combo decks do much better in undefined formats.
@Brainstorm: As I have repeatedly said before, Brainstorm can be looked at and tested. If it is out of control, then it gets banned. Masques still has dozens of useful and fun cards to offer without Brainstorm. If the card doesn't do much to detract from format diversity, then it can stay. It's all about testing to figure that out.
You are being a little arrogant and self-inflating and quite dismissive of these MTGO players. If your twelvepost is amazing, then I encourage you to enter into the tournament and win with it, because that is what players should do with optimal builds. If not, however, then your words are a little empty and sound arrogant.
As to the refinement of the format, I see no difference between the refinement of modern and the refinement of overextended. Both formats need a lot of growth and time in order to be cemented. The difference is that Overextended is already showing that diversity, whereas Modern has shown none (the Community Cup hardly counts because there was a rule that lets each team only have 4 copies of a card used in their overall decklists; not a fair test of diversity). With more cards, Overextended is going to have a wider metagame with more options. It also is going to have the better cutoff point.
@Burn/Arc Trail/no Lava Spike: Spike doesn't remove creatures. In a format that has Combo Elves, Zoo, and RG Elves as premier creature-based decks, that is a problem. Trail is a 2 for 1 deal in at least 2 of those matchups. Lavamancer is subpar because the format currently has a lot of removal, and he ends up being a Shock most of the time. Hell's Thunder has flying in a format where most players currently have no way of blocking it. I strongly encourage people to look at these decks in the context of a metagame and not just as standalone creations. It is insulting to the players who piloted them, and it does not really contribute to the discussion.
I have yet to see a good argument supporting Modern instead of Overextended. While Wizards threw their support in with Modern, that could easily change with community input: Legacy and Commander started out as grassroots formats, and look what happened (T1.5 + EDH).
For those who are naysaying about Overextended, I encourage you to check out the recent tournament results from last night. Note that 123 players were in attendance.
Here is a brief list of the decks that performed well. You can clearly see that this is a far cry from "Legacy Lite", the format that people so dread Overextended becoming. In fact, the format is far more diverse than just a "Legacy Lite" model.
Twelvepost
Enduring Ideal
Combo Elves
Wizards
Pyromancer's Ascension
Scepter Chant
Madness
Hive Twin
Soul Sisters
RG Elves
Living End
Goodstuff Rock
Orzhov Midrange
Then there were the decks that were similar to Legacy ones, although by no means unique to that format. these are decks that have appeared in Standard and Extended for years (or in recent history), so their presence is not a sign that Overextended is just a lite version of Legacy:
Burn
UW Stoneforge
Zoo
Merfolk
Belcher (!!)
Hive Mind (different version though)
Goblins
Esper Aggro (similar to UWB midrange decks)
This is a highly diverse format with lots of potential. The wider pool of cards gives it a lot more health than Modern can have, with strategies like Scepter Chant, Goblins, Wizards, and Madness completely unable to exist without those earlier blocks. While this particular Overextended does not yet use a Masques cutoff, this is probably temporary. Once MTGO gets access to MM, this will assuredly change.
THe thing is, no matter where we start the format, it will ALWAYS be arbitary.
Masques? First Reprintable set. Arbitrary.
IPA? First "Modern Magic Philosophy" Block? Arbitrary.
Mirrodin? New Frames? Arbitrary.
That being said, it is a little unfortunate that there is the potential for confusion ala Dual Decks, but that's the price we pay for a reasonable and affordable Eternal Format.
How is Masques arbitrary? You admit that it is the "first reprintable set", the set that does away with the Reserve List. This Reserve List is the big issue that holds eternal formats like Legacy and Vintage back. A new eternal format that explicitly addressed that problem and symbolically got rid of it would be highly successful. As to prices, no matter where the cutoff is, prices are going to be high for staples unless Wizards reprints them. This is as true for Vindicate/Rishadan Port as it is for Tarmogoyf/Dark Confidant.
The starting set has already been decided anyways. They are not gonna change it because some people want it somewhere else... People wanted EDH but they changed it to commander. You get the idea. Plus it's Forsythe's election, good luck :D.
Here is a quote from Tom LaPille's article. He clearly says that: "This represents only a proposal and an experiment." (Source: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/144). Modern is just a proposed idea, one particular way that the format can look. The community can rally to change that and direct Wizards' attention towards the real historical cutoff point, the one that will make this new eternal format popular and significant: Masques block. Community support can do this because Wizards has not set the format in stone. They are very clear about this, and I for one am willing to fight for this new format to be the best that it can possibly be.
Honestly, I don't care too much if it's invasion forward or mirrodin forward provided they ban the right cards. What I don't want is masques, because they would have to ban brainstorm, dark ritual, rishadan port, misdirection, and others I don't remember now. And the non-ban worthy are useless. Yes some cards would be lost like rebels but that is gonna happen no matter where you draw the line.
Invasion forward would mean vindicate and pernicious deed would be legal and its prices would skyrocket unless reprinted (that is not a problem if they do). But I see a little problem with the deed because it has the old design of destroying creatures artifacts and enchantments instead of nonlands, destroying manlands for example.
And odyssey would bring standstill, which I don't like. The only reason I don't like mirrodin forward is the original fetches and stifle are out, but they can be reprinted in a core set one of these years.
The only card in Masques that absolutely must get banned is Dark Ritual. Other than that, however, the other cards are up in the air. Rishadan Port is a 2 mana Wasteland effectively, which is far from unfair. Misdirection is a free counterspell only against other counterspells. All the other cards in the Masques block are simply not ban worthy even if they are powerful (Unmask, Land Grant, Dust Bowl, Tangle Wire, Daze, etc.).
Then there is the Brainstorm issue. This is really something that comes down to testing and tournament results. If Brainstorm becomes too nutty and goes the route of Vintage, then it can be banned. But if it is just one more tool that blue has, but it does not really put up tournament numbers, then it can stay off the banlist. Worst case scenario sees Masques block with both Brainstorm and Dark Ritual banned, but a whole slew of other cards legal and ready to help the format grow.
As to the price of Deed/Vindicate, this is a silly argument. No matter what set a new eternal format starts at, there are going to be expensive staples. By that logic we should not include Ravnica and Future Sight because Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf are going to be chase rares and shoot up in value. Obviously this is a silly idea, but it is the logical extension of the whole "avoid a block because it could make cards expensive" argument.
I don't understand the mass amounts of complaining about the format starting with Mirrodin/8th. To me it makes perfect sense because that is the time when the Modern idea of inter-block design started. It is also when a lot of the Modern design practices came in. Not to mention its not that hard to find out what cards are legal in the format if you have any doubts. Cards like Wild Mongrel having a version with the modern frame isn't that big of a deal because the vast majority of people playing this format are likely to be people who are into the competitive scene anyway and will most likely know what blocks are legal.
There are two points in regards to this. On the subject of cards like Wild Mongrel, Wizards is arguing that the vast majority of people on the competitive scene DO NOT know what cards are legal and what sets came out in what years. By their own logic, the players would not know about Mongrel being part of Odyssey. If we are willing to concede that players are smart enough to know when Mongrel and other promo/duel cards were originally printed, then we also must concede that they are smart enough to build decks without a visual aid period. This is the internet era! The Magic community thrives on forums, online programs, online stores, Gatherer, etc. People are going to know legality and they do not need a silly visual aid to help them.
The Modern ideas, like interblock design, color pie refining, power creep, etc., pale in comparison to Masques' abolition of the Reserve List. The Reserve List is the one thing that holds Legacy back (and Vintage for that matter), and starting an eternal format here would ensure that the format is historically significant and appealing. It will withstand the test of time if it has a timeless starting point. For years to come, players will appreciate what the Masques cutoff means, but a Mirrodin cutoff is an arbitrary and meaningless point without serious justification and rationalization.
I discounted overextended because the cut off point was invasion because of MTGO.
Was it changed to Mercadian Masques recently?
If so, Bravo I say, I would be interested.
Its the only really logical cut off point, end of reserve list anything that gets too expensive can be reprinted in some way, nuff said.
I mean the whole point is to mirror the success of legacy but with out the massive price tag and that is the most logical way to do it.
There was a lot of discussion on the Overextended website about the Masques/Invasion cutoff argument. Once MTGO gets MM, then there will almost assuredly be a switch to a Masques cutoff. But until then, I think it looks like it will stay at Invasion. With stronger voices, however, that could definitely change in the interim. I personally want a Masques cutoff as soon as possible, because it is symbolic and historically significant. It contributes to the growth and popularity of the format.
More original duals are no where near $130. Maybe Trop. Isle and Underground River, but other than those two they can all be had under $100, and at least 5 of the 10 can be had for under $50.
Sea, Isle, and Tundra are all around the 100 dollar mark if you get good ebay deals. Buying them direct from online dealers is going to run up the cost by at least 20. Those price tags have been running up steadily for two years now and they aren't going to stop. And the other duals? If you aren't playing Blue in Legacy, you better have a darn good reason, and with the exception of Merfolk (no duals), Goblins (either Taiga or no duals), Belcher (Taiga/Bayou), and BW midrange decks (Scrubland), there are really no contenders that roll with the other duals. So the fact that those are worth less than 50 in some cases is really not important.
Wouldn't this not be any cheaper than Standard? I mean people will find the dominate archetypes and all the cards will rise in price.
Magic really needs to do something to keep formats affordable. It's just pure crazy the amount of money you have to spend to have a fighting chance.
They need to start reprinting cards, screw the collectors.
Magic affordability is relative. Modern/Overextended intend on being new eternal formats that are relatively affordable when compared to Legacy and Vintage. Ravnica shocklands, if not reprinted, might hit the $50 mark, but that is way better than the absurd $130 that the original duals are running. If they get reprinted, then this will be considerably more reasonable.
An eternal format is always going to be expensive, as is a card game where there is supply, demand, and scarce resources. Modern/Overextended are aiming to be more affordable than Legacy/Vintage. They are not trying to be the cheapest formats ever, nor are they trying to be cheaper formats when compared to Standard. They are just a new affordable bar for eternal formats.
Player A tells the newb player B if he wants to join his Modern playgroup.
A - So wanna join to play Modern? Much better than $tandard, more fun and more cheap?
B - Ok but what cards can I play? I started to play 3 months ago.
A - Any card with the modern card frame. It's just that easy.
B - Sounds good. I was worried because I couldn't play competitive $tandard without spending 350$ on 4 cards to see them rotate some months later. And legacy, I asked for the price of the duals and thought it was a joke.
This test doesn't even work. There are dozens of cards that have modern card frames but are not legal, as fnord said. In order for them to realize this, that player is going to have to look up individual cards, and at that point, they might as well just look at set legality.
Also, this is just a generally unrealistic scenario. This is the internet age. Players are capable of knowing dozens of archetypes in any given format, as well as complicated and arbitrary banlists in Legacy and Vintage. They are also capable of understanding old Extended rotations. We are a wired Magic generation, and we can easily look up things like set legality just as easily as we can search for techy cards with Gatherer.
It is ridiculous to think that Magic players need a visual aid to help them choose sets. If a player is so new as to need to look up the cards, then he is definitely not going to realize that a huge range of cards from duel decks and promo events are also not legal. Pernicious Deed? Dark Ritual? Daze? Wild Mongrel? All of these are legal to that player. But if you think that he is smart enough to look up the cards and check legality, then you must also realize he is smart enough to do that no matter what the cutoff is. Visual aids are not really aids. They either demean Magic player intelligence, or provide a false test for new players.
I think the overextended format proposed by Gavin V starts at Invasion. At least in his original article. Part of the reasoning to exclude masques was that it wouldnt 'feel' like legacy but add extra deck archetypes that were too slow for legacy but would be excluded if starting at mirrodin or legacy. I feel more is better. Smaller format will be faerieblade plus few others. Reason legacy is popular is that it has so much variety. Yes eventually more cards will enter but in beginning it might be dominated by certain archetypes like standard and previous extended sometimes was. Some people prefer that - I would prefer it to be like legacy variety without the huge costs.
I am active on that site, and the biggest reason that the Invasion cutoff was determined was Masques' unvailability on MTGO. Other than that reason, it is pretty arbitrary to choose Invasion as a cutoff over Masques. I do not speak for Gavin here, but I do know that many players on that site (myself included) will happily switch to the MM cutoff once MTGO gets the set.
Masques is just overall the historically significant cutoff point that a new eternal format deserves. Fears about "Legacy Lite" are totally unjustified, given the outrageous diversity of Overextended right now. Only Dark Ritual and Brainstorm could change that, one of which will definitely be banned, and the other of which could easily be banned if it caused problems. Even with Brainstorm around, I sincerely doubt it would make the format look like Legacy. It would just supplement the existent Overextended decks and make them slightly stronger.
On the surface, this is a risk that Overextended runs. After all, with a larger card pool, it seems reasonable that the format would turn out more like Legacy. Indeed it is overwhelmingly logical that if Standard is the least like Legacy, Extended is more like Legacy, and Modern is even more like Legacy, then Overextended would be the most like Legacy (at least if adding sets is the way that a format approaches Legacy).
But in practice, this is completely untrue. Overextended tournaments are full of decks that never appear in Legacy events, with these unique Overextended archetypes consistently posting high finishes at the tables (take the word "unique" with a grain of salt, because a lot of these decks are admittedly imported from either Extended or old Standard tournaments). Here are some decks that have been going 4-0 in recent MTGO tournaments, alongside some Top 8 finishers from past MTGO events. Take a look at the tournament diversity (Source: http://mtgoverextended.com/category/tno/). Yes, there are some decks here that are similar to Legacy ones (Zoo, Dredge, Merfolk, etc.) But these decks are EXACTLY THE SAME as their Modern equivalents. So if you are worried about a deck being too similar to a Legacy version, then you need to think about that in the context of Modern as well.
Madness
Combo Elves
Zoo (Same as the Modern version)
UR Pyromancer's Ascension
Dragonstorm
Living End
Ooze Rock
Burn (Same as the Modern version)
White Weenie
Twelvepost
Enduring Ideal
Deceiver Twin
Scepter Chant
Tron Control
Scapeshift
RG Elves
Wizards
UW Stoneforge (Same as the Modern version)
BW Midrange (extremely different from the Legacy version)
The list goes on. I urge everyone to remember two facts about these lists:
1) The vast majority of these archetypes do NOT exist in Legacy. They are totally unique to a new eternal format (even if they were invented in an older extended/standard). Decks are absolutely lost from Overextended in Legacy.
2) Of the decks that are similar to Legacy ones (Zoo, Dredge, Stoneforge, etc.), these are decks which would ALSO exist in Modern! In fact, they would exist in Modern without losing anything from their Overextended version! So if you are worried about Overextended looking like Legacy Lite, then also worry about it for Modern as well.
Force of Will, Wasteland, Lion's Eye Diamond, Swords to Plowshares, Natural Order, etc. These are Legacy Staples that seriously define the metagame. Without them, the metagame has a huge shift. Overextended represents that change, and it is not under any circumstances a Legacy Lite ripoff. The decklists from tournaments prove this.
-ktkenshinx-
This sounds decent in theory, but in practice, it has not played out like this. The only test of Modern's health has been the community cup, and with the exception of Hypergenesis (banned in Overextended, SHOULD be banned in Modern), the decks that Modern players ran are the exact same as those we see every week in Overextended tournaments. Elves? Stoneforge? Burn? Living End? All of the Modern decks from the CC are mainstays in the Overextended events, a point which is proven weekly.
Indeed, this is the fact that a lot of people keep missing: Overextended has a ton of proven diversity in the weekly tournaments, and no decks are lost between Modern and Overextended. There are, however, a variety of decks that will be lost in the Overextended --> Modern shift. There are also a lot of staples which will also be lost. In this argument, the evidence is what is important. And the Overextended evidence has been clearly presented every week, whereas Modern has yet to submit any real evidence about its diversity. There are a lot of thought experiments about Modern's health, but no real and honest data. Overextended, on the other hand, gives that data every week.
-ktkenshinx-
Modern has old decks and new decks. It is silly to think that Modern is the exact same format as old Extended, especially when a variety of new cards clearly show that this is not true. I understand that you want to disagree with me, but look at the decklists in the format and see how different they are. Look at the new sets that have been gained, and see what those all offer. Three of Modern's decks in particular are either seriously improved or flat out new.
1) Hypergenesis, gaining Chancellor of the Annex and Tangle. Annex is particularly stupid in that deck, as it effectively Time Walks the opponent and makes the combo even harder to disrupt. Tangle allows for random turn 1 wins, or even turn 0 wins with Violent Outburst and Guide.
2) UW Stoneforge never existed in the old Extended. It does now, and that's a problem. The deck is extremely strong, both in Modern and Overextended. The big difference is that Overextended has more ways to fight it, both cards and archetypes. Stoneforge, Jace, Batterskull, Swords; these did not exist in the 2010 Extended season. That makes this deck totally different.
3) Twelvepost. It's scary in both formats, but with a smaller Modern card pool, it's even scarier. Tech such as Rith's Charm and Destructive Flow just do not exist in the format, which makes Twelvepost even more likely to run rampant. Rishadan Port and Dust Bowl also do not exist, and with a Masques cutoff, these would also be cards that could slow down the powerful Twelvepost engine.
As a whole, sure, Modern has similarities to old Extended. But this is a new format with new threats, and the list above shows three decks that are particularly problematic in Modern tournaments. Of course, we can't know for sure, because Wizards has not actually tested the new format in an honest setting with no artificial constraints. Overextended has already passed the diversity test, as each weekly tournament attests to. If Modern does this as well, then I would be a lot more on board with it. But without a real test of format health, we can't just say that "Modern is going to be healthy like old Extended." We have no evidence to suggest that. This is especially problematic because the PT San Juan season qualifier season of 2010 was part of the reason that Wizards had to revamp Extended anyway!
-ktkenshinx-
This is true. Wizards has definitely taken its own initiative with the Modern cutoff, and that gives it a leg up in that particular area. They are certainly more likely to consider their own format, because that reinforces their credibility and authority.
But that said, Magic has had two formats that were completely player made, ones that Wizards adopted. T1.5 became Legacy and EDH became Commander. Sure, these formats were not competing with one of Wizards' own formats. But they heard players! They listened to the community and its desires and they acted in the greater interest!
It is EASIER to support Modern. It is not the best format, but it is the easy way out. In fact, to support Modern, all you have to do is vote in a poll and that's it. But to support Overextended (which has so much more going for it), you need to commit a bit more. That commitment is what can drive a truly excellent eternal format that will withstand the test of time. NONE of this is to demean those players who have gone the extra mile in supporting Modern (the Modern supporters on MTGS all go this distance). But there is much more to be gained in Overextended, and the worry is that a lot of people don't go out and support Overextended because it looks like Modern has already won. This is not true. Wizards will listen to the community if the community makes its voice heard.
Always remember Tom LaPille's quote, on behalf of Wizards:
"As I said, many of you have called for a non-rotating format that doesn't have the card availability problems of Legacy. We propose Modern as that format.
This represents only a proposal and an experiment."
-ktkenshinx-
I have really tried, on these forums and others, to puzzle through Modern vs. Overextended, analyzing the pros and cons of both. In every case, there is just no good reason that I can see to support Modern instead of Overextended. It's not that my support for the format is clouding my analysis. It's that my support for the format is based in a lot of analyses, and I do not want to see Modern take the stage over something that is clearly better.
Magic has a lot at stake in this format, and I just hope that it comes out as optimally as possible for the players and for the game. Modern does not represent that optimal format, because of an arbitrary starting point and substantially less card and deck diversity. Overextended, on the other hand, has a convincing and historically important starting point at Masques, and includes way more cards.
All in all, Modern is better than nothing. But at the moment, you really can't say "modern is diverse" when there has been no real and honest test of its diversity and health. The Community Cup does not show any real diversity because of its unique rules. If someone has evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it! But Overextended has plenty of evidence to show its own health and diversity, and that is what I base my support off of. I hope others do the same.
-ktkenshinx-
I sincerely hope that Wizards is not going to base an entire new format and the future of Magic on the opinion of 1000 people. This is especially stupid given that they have not actually tested the format yet in a real setting. The Community Cup was not a real test of format health because any one team was only allowed to play 4 copies of a card. This necessarily made the format appear diverse when in reality it might not be. Hypergenesis, Twelvepost, and UW Stoneforge seem completely out of control in Modern, and without a real tournament to showcase these decks, we can never know for sure.
Wizards is not going to jump ahead with something so important with only the results of a single poll. Naming a format (the Legacy polls from 2004) is one thing, but a real format is something entirely different. This debate is NOT over, and Wizards is not going to end it yet without more community input.
-ktkenshinx-
You are definitely right that part of the initial reasoning for excluding Masques had to do with Daze/Brainstorm/Dark Ritual, and a worry that the format would look too much like Legacy with those cards. I am disagreeing with this initial logic because it gets rid of the whole block which is the best possible starting point. Masques is historically significant and a worthy point to start the new eternal format, and three cards should not get in the way of that. Gavin's first article about this was a good one, but I was not alone in disagreeing with his reasons for an Invasion cutoff. Ultimately, Gavin explained that the lack of Masques availability for MTGO players was also a big deciding point in his decision. Once that changes...this can all be reassessed (or even earlier if paper Overextended catches on!).
Gush would probably not be overpowered in the format. Here is an excerpt from a recent Legacy article on Starcitygames, written by Wes Wise, that explains why Gush is safe in Legacy:
A lot of the decks that Gush helps are decks that really can't exist in Overextended. The lack of High Tide and "real" ANT (No LED and Ritual slows the deck down a lot) make the card a lot safer. I am sure that a deck would develop to use the card, but I do not think it would be that broken in this new format. Testing would be the ultimate arbiter, but I would gamble on it being safe. (I personally am more worried about Land Grant supplementing Belcher with no FoW to keep it in check).
-ktkenshinx-
I did not post the lists to show that more people are favoring one format over the other. At no point in my post did I say this. I was simply showing that the format is itself popular, and that the decks in Overextended are quite diverse.
@Brainstorm: As I have repeatedly said before, Brainstorm can be looked at and tested. If it is out of control, then it gets banned. Masques still has dozens of useful and fun cards to offer without Brainstorm. If the card doesn't do much to detract from format diversity, then it can stay. It's all about testing to figure that out.
You are being a little arrogant and self-inflating and quite dismissive of these MTGO players. If your twelvepost is amazing, then I encourage you to enter into the tournament and win with it, because that is what players should do with optimal builds. If not, however, then your words are a little empty and sound arrogant.
As to the refinement of the format, I see no difference between the refinement of modern and the refinement of overextended. Both formats need a lot of growth and time in order to be cemented. The difference is that Overextended is already showing that diversity, whereas Modern has shown none (the Community Cup hardly counts because there was a rule that lets each team only have 4 copies of a card used in their overall decklists; not a fair test of diversity). With more cards, Overextended is going to have a wider metagame with more options. It also is going to have the better cutoff point.
@Burn/Arc Trail/no Lava Spike: Spike doesn't remove creatures. In a format that has Combo Elves, Zoo, and RG Elves as premier creature-based decks, that is a problem. Trail is a 2 for 1 deal in at least 2 of those matchups. Lavamancer is subpar because the format currently has a lot of removal, and he ends up being a Shock most of the time. Hell's Thunder has flying in a format where most players currently have no way of blocking it. I strongly encourage people to look at these decks in the context of a metagame and not just as standalone creations. It is insulting to the players who piloted them, and it does not really contribute to the discussion.
I have yet to see a good argument supporting Modern instead of Overextended. While Wizards threw their support in with Modern, that could easily change with community input: Legacy and Commander started out as grassroots formats, and look what happened (T1.5 + EDH).
-ktkenshinx-
http://mtgoverextended.com/?p=671
Here is a brief list of the decks that performed well. You can clearly see that this is a far cry from "Legacy Lite", the format that people so dread Overextended becoming. In fact, the format is far more diverse than just a "Legacy Lite" model.
Twelvepost
Enduring Ideal
Combo Elves
Wizards
Pyromancer's Ascension
Scepter Chant
Madness
Hive Twin
Soul Sisters
RG Elves
Living End
Goodstuff Rock
Orzhov Midrange
Then there were the decks that were similar to Legacy ones, although by no means unique to that format. these are decks that have appeared in Standard and Extended for years (or in recent history), so their presence is not a sign that Overextended is just a lite version of Legacy:
Burn
UW Stoneforge
Zoo
Merfolk
Belcher (!!)
Hive Mind (different version though)
Goblins
Esper Aggro (similar to UWB midrange decks)
This is a highly diverse format with lots of potential. The wider pool of cards gives it a lot more health than Modern can have, with strategies like Scepter Chant, Goblins, Wizards, and Madness completely unable to exist without those earlier blocks. While this particular Overextended does not yet use a Masques cutoff, this is probably temporary. Once MTGO gets access to MM, this will assuredly change.
-ktkenshinx-
How is Masques arbitrary? You admit that it is the "first reprintable set", the set that does away with the Reserve List. This Reserve List is the big issue that holds eternal formats like Legacy and Vintage back. A new eternal format that explicitly addressed that problem and symbolically got rid of it would be highly successful. As to prices, no matter where the cutoff is, prices are going to be high for staples unless Wizards reprints them. This is as true for Vindicate/Rishadan Port as it is for Tarmogoyf/Dark Confidant.
Here is a quote from Tom LaPille's article. He clearly says that: "This represents only a proposal and an experiment." (Source: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/144). Modern is just a proposed idea, one particular way that the format can look. The community can rally to change that and direct Wizards' attention towards the real historical cutoff point, the one that will make this new eternal format popular and significant: Masques block. Community support can do this because Wizards has not set the format in stone. They are very clear about this, and I for one am willing to fight for this new format to be the best that it can possibly be.
-ktkenshinx-
The only card in Masques that absolutely must get banned is Dark Ritual. Other than that, however, the other cards are up in the air. Rishadan Port is a 2 mana Wasteland effectively, which is far from unfair. Misdirection is a free counterspell only against other counterspells. All the other cards in the Masques block are simply not ban worthy even if they are powerful (Unmask, Land Grant, Dust Bowl, Tangle Wire, Daze, etc.).
Then there is the Brainstorm issue. This is really something that comes down to testing and tournament results. If Brainstorm becomes too nutty and goes the route of Vintage, then it can be banned. But if it is just one more tool that blue has, but it does not really put up tournament numbers, then it can stay off the banlist. Worst case scenario sees Masques block with both Brainstorm and Dark Ritual banned, but a whole slew of other cards legal and ready to help the format grow.
As to the price of Deed/Vindicate, this is a silly argument. No matter what set a new eternal format starts at, there are going to be expensive staples. By that logic we should not include Ravnica and Future Sight because Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf are going to be chase rares and shoot up in value. Obviously this is a silly idea, but it is the logical extension of the whole "avoid a block because it could make cards expensive" argument.
There are two points in regards to this. On the subject of cards like Wild Mongrel, Wizards is arguing that the vast majority of people on the competitive scene DO NOT know what cards are legal and what sets came out in what years. By their own logic, the players would not know about Mongrel being part of Odyssey. If we are willing to concede that players are smart enough to know when Mongrel and other promo/duel cards were originally printed, then we also must concede that they are smart enough to build decks without a visual aid period. This is the internet era! The Magic community thrives on forums, online programs, online stores, Gatherer, etc. People are going to know legality and they do not need a silly visual aid to help them.
The Modern ideas, like interblock design, color pie refining, power creep, etc., pale in comparison to Masques' abolition of the Reserve List. The Reserve List is the one thing that holds Legacy back (and Vintage for that matter), and starting an eternal format here would ensure that the format is historically significant and appealing. It will withstand the test of time if it has a timeless starting point. For years to come, players will appreciate what the Masques cutoff means, but a Mirrodin cutoff is an arbitrary and meaningless point without serious justification and rationalization.
There was a lot of discussion on the Overextended website about the Masques/Invasion cutoff argument. Once MTGO gets MM, then there will almost assuredly be a switch to a Masques cutoff. But until then, I think it looks like it will stay at Invasion. With stronger voices, however, that could definitely change in the interim. I personally want a Masques cutoff as soon as possible, because it is symbolic and historically significant. It contributes to the growth and popularity of the format.
Sea, Isle, and Tundra are all around the 100 dollar mark if you get good ebay deals. Buying them direct from online dealers is going to run up the cost by at least 20. Those price tags have been running up steadily for two years now and they aren't going to stop. And the other duals? If you aren't playing Blue in Legacy, you better have a darn good reason, and with the exception of Merfolk (no duals), Goblins (either Taiga or no duals), Belcher (Taiga/Bayou), and BW midrange decks (Scrubland), there are really no contenders that roll with the other duals. So the fact that those are worth less than 50 in some cases is really not important.
-ktkenshinx-
Magic affordability is relative. Modern/Overextended intend on being new eternal formats that are relatively affordable when compared to Legacy and Vintage. Ravnica shocklands, if not reprinted, might hit the $50 mark, but that is way better than the absurd $130 that the original duals are running. If they get reprinted, then this will be considerably more reasonable.
An eternal format is always going to be expensive, as is a card game where there is supply, demand, and scarce resources. Modern/Overextended are aiming to be more affordable than Legacy/Vintage. They are not trying to be the cheapest formats ever, nor are they trying to be cheaper formats when compared to Standard. They are just a new affordable bar for eternal formats.
-ktkenshinx-
This test doesn't even work. There are dozens of cards that have modern card frames but are not legal, as fnord said. In order for them to realize this, that player is going to have to look up individual cards, and at that point, they might as well just look at set legality.
Also, this is just a generally unrealistic scenario. This is the internet age. Players are capable of knowing dozens of archetypes in any given format, as well as complicated and arbitrary banlists in Legacy and Vintage. They are also capable of understanding old Extended rotations. We are a wired Magic generation, and we can easily look up things like set legality just as easily as we can search for techy cards with Gatherer.
It is ridiculous to think that Magic players need a visual aid to help them choose sets. If a player is so new as to need to look up the cards, then he is definitely not going to realize that a huge range of cards from duel decks and promo events are also not legal. Pernicious Deed? Dark Ritual? Daze? Wild Mongrel? All of these are legal to that player. But if you think that he is smart enough to look up the cards and check legality, then you must also realize he is smart enough to do that no matter what the cutoff is. Visual aids are not really aids. They either demean Magic player intelligence, or provide a false test for new players.
-ktkenshinx-
I am active on that site, and the biggest reason that the Invasion cutoff was determined was Masques' unvailability on MTGO. Other than that reason, it is pretty arbitrary to choose Invasion as a cutoff over Masques. I do not speak for Gavin here, but I do know that many players on that site (myself included) will happily switch to the MM cutoff once MTGO gets the set.
Masques is just overall the historically significant cutoff point that a new eternal format deserves. Fears about "Legacy Lite" are totally unjustified, given the outrageous diversity of Overextended right now. Only Dark Ritual and Brainstorm could change that, one of which will definitely be banned, and the other of which could easily be banned if it caused problems. Even with Brainstorm around, I sincerely doubt it would make the format look like Legacy. It would just supplement the existent Overextended decks and make them slightly stronger.
-ktkenshinx-