I think a large part of the reason for this is mod lounge confidentiality, which means that most people participating in this discussion (especially those who feel aggrieved) don't have full access to the facts.
So I'd like to make a request to all mods/admins: Would you be willing to agree to waive mod lounge confidentiality for all posts relevant to this discussion? Redactions can be made if necessary.
I second fnord's request in #245 regarding the mod lounge.
I have to agree with fnord. The standards for confidentiality are so high that all these discussions constantly end up with tons of posts referring to posts or users that can't be revealed or identified. It's hard to know who's being honest about what. I'm not accusing anyone of making facts up, but I am saying that interpreting posts as manipulative or misleading when they're forced to make sideways references is only natural, and if not a primary factor in escalating issues like this, the secrecy still makes hashing them out much more difficult.
At first I thought Ria was just articulating himself very poorly and felt sorry with him, but (N_S) and jonnyjonski's dubious suspensions really sealed the deal here (I think Kijin's may have actually been deserved, but the timing was suspect).
I think Azrael is completely right. If there's a witch hunt, it's Ria who is the one carrying it out. The confidentiality agreement in the staff CoC is being blatantly used as a smokescreen to cast aspersions on users whose agenda is at odds with his, which is basically the kind of thing I was afraid the Gutter was doing (keep in mind I am not a fan of that community, so I don't believe this is a Gutter vs. Ria issue at all like some would be trying to frame it) but on a wider, more sinister scale.
It's easy to assert pressure or legitimize your claims when all you have to do is infer that there is support or evidence that can't be verified without breaking the site rules. Thank you for trying to break this down as best you can under the ridiculous restrictions that shroud sets in place, Az.
I don't care how unplayable it is. I don't care how many people laugh. I don't care how hard it is to carry, nor the cost of additional sleeves, or even that it doesn't have the excellent original flavor text.
Battle of Wits is back in Standard. And for 15 glorious months, I will attempt to shuffle a deck taller than it is wide.
Yes, all of this! I've found a reason to play Standard again! Back in Kamigawa/Ravnica Standard a friend of mine was playing Battle of Wits and I thought it was so cool, but I never got the chance to do it myself... Until now~
Thanks a lot, guys. I haven't had time to jump on Modo in a bit but I've got a bunch of names to add when I do. And yeah, I agree with that much, TheEvilCliff. I try to talk in the chat window pretty often, but a lot of people don't take and it's not so easy to do it and play at the same time. Getting something set up with Ventrilo or similar would be kind of cool.
Oh, I think I've actually played 3drinks before! Ha. I think those were decent games, but it's been a little while. A league sounds pretty interesting.
If this belongs in the MTGO section, go ahead and move it, that's my bad.
So due to some changes at the shop I frequented, and the subsequent move of their location, I haven't been able to play EDH IRL since basically late last year. A couple months ago I picked MTGO back up and started playing against randoms there, but to be honest it's really lacking since people tend to be kind of... For lack of a better word, douchey, a lot of the time. You know, quitting because you play a single Counterspell, telling you how you should be playing, intentionally creating a chaotic game state and then dropping, etc. And even when it's not like this, the games rarely feel as laid back and casual as I'd like.
I've had fun plenty of times, and seen some really cool decks here and there, but for the most part it's a crapshoot. But I don't want to badger my friends to drop the money to play MTGO, so I was thinking I'd check in here and see who else plays EDH on MTGO and hopefully establish a friendly circle of MTGO EDH players if there isn't one on MTGS already. If there is, I want in~
So yeah, is there anybody out there? My username is Kaiterra, and the decks I play are in my sig (though I have some other random ones too).
I came out strongly against the Gutter with my first post here, because I vehemently disagree with the very concept of the thing. I've seen private sections like the Gutter (or even the Mod Lounge, to be honest) create unnecessary tension in almost every community I've been a part of that had them.
But the Gutterites started to sway me as the result of a lot of dirt they brought to light on the administration's side, and what I feel was some poor handling of this issue and others in the past.
But two wrongs mean both sides are wrong. If the Gutterites want any measure of respect from the regular userbase, they are going to need to start giving that same respect instead of continually bashing them. I've found value in a lot of the posts from the Gutterites and their supporters, but at this point I'm sick to death of hearing "you're ignorant" "shut up, the adults are talking" "stop posting," "nothing you say is valid," "you're lying" with no attempt to prove why, etc.
Worse, when ignorant people are asked if they have any firsthand experience with the Gutter, they simply defend their ignorance and claim (either implicitly or explicitly) that hearsay should be all they need.
Is this hearsay so far from the truth? After so many accusations of ignorance and talking down to Gutter opponents, telling them to shut up because they didn't know what they were talking about, I applied a couple days ago, so I research the Gutter's content and be sure I had a better idea of the facts.
I read the Gutter somewhat thoroughly after my application was accepted and found a lot of truth and humor within, but it was all permeated by nastiness. Even a lot of the "Let's talk about [set]!" threads were chock full of posts that served no purpose but to mock the regular users of the site. Not always specific users, but the entire community in general. There were several threads dedicated solely to making fun of specific users, whether they had consented/applied to the Gutter or not.
It might not be trolling if they can't see it, but just because the targets of the Gutter's scorn can't see it, doesn't mean it's not bullying and it doesn't mean it's okay for the administration to foster it. For all the accusations of childishness being flung at the Gutter's opponents, for all the charges of hypocrisy, with varying merit, being flung around, the Gutter community really needs to take a step back and consider the virtues of what they are doing when they fight so hard to defend their right to snicker at other people behind their backs, because THAT is truly childish.
I would definitely consider worse that some mods were doing the same thing, commend Kijin and NS for apparently not being a part of it in there, and between this and the Kijin incident have actually come to agree with the calls for Ria to step down, but that in no way excuses such behavior on the Gutter's part, especially if the Gutterites want to think themselves superior to the average user, which is a very common thread among the posts in there and even the posts in here. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8595981&postcount=1429 PhantomS' reply here is a perfect example.
I keep hearing Gutterites make claims that "it's just good natured ribbing of each other, we can handle it," which is fine, and I think they should have the right to say whatever they want about each other if that's how they choose to conduct themselves, but this claim ceases to be true the instant that community's contempt is turned on anyone who has not agreed to be a part of their community.
And I know not ALL Gutterites are making the "watchdog" claim, but for the ones that are, it rings extremely hollow when it's come to light that the Gutter's focus has almost entirely been turned on staff members only in situations where the staffer's actions affected a Gutterite or the Gutter itself. I'll admit that in all the examples I've seen where this was the case, the Gutterites were actually in the right, but when it only happens if your homeboys are threatened or the perpetrator was already in your sights due to past personal grievances, then at that point, it's not checks and balances, it's gang warfare, and you should stop wearing it as a feather in your cap. If there are several examples I've missed of it being done on a non-Gutter-member's behalf, then I'll buy the claim, but I've been looking and failing to find any, as much as I want there to be.
I do believe that some Gutterites like NS and Kijin ultimately have mostly good, if not somewhat misguided, intentions and have been outstanding members of the community in the past. I have a soft spot for subversive elements that serve the greater good, even when they don't agree with me. But the more I see from the Gutter in general, the less and less I believe that as a community it's anything of the sort, and the more I feel that it's just an elitist cesspit that serves little purpose but to unite like-minded miscreants in the spirit of nastiness and thumbing your nose at authority, elevating its members above the rest of the community they loathe.
Go ahead, pick apart this post piece by piece, I don't care. I've said my piece and believe everything I said, so outside of lurking, I'm done with this issue now and look forward to the Gutter's closing, or preferably a compromise that lightens the tone and transforms it from a place to roast people its users don't like to a place where people can share irreverent, controversial jokes and good times with each other. It'd even be great if the longest thread on MTGS ever could somehow be kept alive. But the current attitudes being expressed in by most of its defenders are doing a disservice to this possibility or highlight the fact that it is either not something they would accept, or not the real reason they're so attached to the Gutter.
Well, I can safely say that kpaca has been trolling/flaming this thread for quite awhile now. Rian stated that it's against the rules. He pressed his luck and got infracted. What did you expect?
I don't see how that's 'singling him out'. What surprises me is that it didn't happen sooner.
This week's events are not what NS is referring to.
They need to or all the "vindictive jerk" comments will look a lot more like truth then just blind anger.
Okay, I agree with that completely. I really do think the order of operations was way off here (I mean, the obvious starting point should have been those mod lounge flame threads, cleaning things up internally before focusing outward). Unfortunately, we're beyond that point now. Which really sucks.
No, Im just trying to point out that If the staff feels that the gutter is such a problem to the future of the site that it needs to be shut down for the reasons they stated, then the fair thing to do is address all the same problems everywhere else.
Certainly. You're right about that. I just sensed an implication that touching the Gutter was unjust without doing such things first. Forgive me if I'm wrong.
From what I've seen from the admins/globals in this thread, there are plans or at least desires to address all such problems across the entire forums, and this is just a starting point. I hope that's true at least. I'd be pretty disappointed if it wasn't.
Edit: and why isn't certain memebrs of the standard/edh boards getting attention for bullying? I'm not going to name names, but the "I win FNM's. I know what I'm talking about, you don't. Your deck is trash" attitude is RAMPID. How would a new user feel showing up and posting a list just to have someone tell them, basically, that they're a crappy deck builder, a noob, and will never win a game?
Are you saying that no problem on the site should be addressed unless they can all be addressed at the same time? I actually feel pretty strongly what you're talking about in that regard, but bringing it up doesn't change this issue at all. I'd recommend bringing it up in another venue or time so it can get the attention it deserves.
I know the idea is to maintain a professional image in public, but this is far too broadly worded.
If this clause had been in place six months ago, I would never have been promoted to admin after fighting against the last gutterpocalypse - I would have been booted off the staff for violating the CoC. Staff members need to be able to converse candidly with one another. They should be free to disagree. And if accountability is a concern, then sometimes that conversation needs to happen in the open, drama be damned.
This. Must. Go.
Agree completely. When I saw why G_R had to step down just to speak his mind, I could only think to myself that that was a travesty. Honestly, allowing such discourse should only serve to improve the staff's image, as long as you're not constantly at each other's throats over menial things, which means there are more severe underlying problems to begin with. At the very least it would deflect so many of these accusations of corruption and users being silenced.
I have to agree with fnord. The standards for confidentiality are so high that all these discussions constantly end up with tons of posts referring to posts or users that can't be revealed or identified. It's hard to know who's being honest about what. I'm not accusing anyone of making facts up, but I am saying that interpreting posts as manipulative or misleading when they're forced to make sideways references is only natural, and if not a primary factor in escalating issues like this, the secrecy still makes hashing them out much more difficult.
I think Azrael is completely right. If there's a witch hunt, it's Ria who is the one carrying it out. The confidentiality agreement in the staff CoC is being blatantly used as a smokescreen to cast aspersions on users whose agenda is at odds with his, which is basically the kind of thing I was afraid the Gutter was doing (keep in mind I am not a fan of that community, so I don't believe this is a Gutter vs. Ria issue at all like some would be trying to frame it) but on a wider, more sinister scale.
It's easy to assert pressure or legitimize your claims when all you have to do is infer that there is support or evidence that can't be verified without breaking the site rules. Thank you for trying to break this down as best you can under the ridiculous restrictions that shroud sets in place, Az.
Yes, all of this! I've found a reason to play Standard again! Back in Kamigawa/Ravnica Standard a friend of mine was playing Battle of Wits and I thought it was so cool, but I never got the chance to do it myself... Until now~
Yeah, I love the shout out. Give me Mons' Goblin Raidmaster too!
Because if it was, people would instead be asking why it was. And with Bolas added, that's one less Mythic slot to do something silly with.
So due to some changes at the shop I frequented, and the subsequent move of their location, I haven't been able to play EDH IRL since basically late last year. A couple months ago I picked MTGO back up and started playing against randoms there, but to be honest it's really lacking since people tend to be kind of... For lack of a better word, douchey, a lot of the time. You know, quitting because you play a single Counterspell, telling you how you should be playing, intentionally creating a chaotic game state and then dropping, etc. And even when it's not like this, the games rarely feel as laid back and casual as I'd like.
I've had fun plenty of times, and seen some really cool decks here and there, but for the most part it's a crapshoot. But I don't want to badger my friends to drop the money to play MTGO, so I was thinking I'd check in here and see who else plays EDH on MTGO and hopefully establish a friendly circle of MTGO EDH players if there isn't one on MTGS already. If there is, I want in~
So yeah, is there anybody out there? My username is Kaiterra, and the decks I play are in my sig (though I have some other random ones too).
But the Gutterites started to sway me as the result of a lot of dirt they brought to light on the administration's side, and what I feel was some poor handling of this issue and others in the past.
But two wrongs mean both sides are wrong. If the Gutterites want any measure of respect from the regular userbase, they are going to need to start giving that same respect instead of continually bashing them. I've found value in a lot of the posts from the Gutterites and their supporters, but at this point I'm sick to death of hearing "you're ignorant" "shut up, the adults are talking" "stop posting," "nothing you say is valid," "you're lying" with no attempt to prove why, etc.
Is this hearsay so far from the truth? After so many accusations of ignorance and talking down to Gutter opponents, telling them to shut up because they didn't know what they were talking about, I applied a couple days ago, so I research the Gutter's content and be sure I had a better idea of the facts.
I read the Gutter somewhat thoroughly after my application was accepted and found a lot of truth and humor within, but it was all permeated by nastiness. Even a lot of the "Let's talk about [set]!" threads were chock full of posts that served no purpose but to mock the regular users of the site. Not always specific users, but the entire community in general. There were several threads dedicated solely to making fun of specific users, whether they had consented/applied to the Gutter or not.
It might not be trolling if they can't see it, but just because the targets of the Gutter's scorn can't see it, doesn't mean it's not bullying and it doesn't mean it's okay for the administration to foster it. For all the accusations of childishness being flung at the Gutter's opponents, for all the charges of hypocrisy, with varying merit, being flung around, the Gutter community really needs to take a step back and consider the virtues of what they are doing when they fight so hard to defend their right to snicker at other people behind their backs, because THAT is truly childish.
I would definitely consider worse that some mods were doing the same thing, commend Kijin and NS for apparently not being a part of it in there, and between this and the Kijin incident have actually come to agree with the calls for Ria to step down, but that in no way excuses such behavior on the Gutter's part, especially if the Gutterites want to think themselves superior to the average user, which is a very common thread among the posts in there and even the posts in here. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8595981&postcount=1429 PhantomS' reply here is a perfect example.
I keep hearing Gutterites make claims that "it's just good natured ribbing of each other, we can handle it," which is fine, and I think they should have the right to say whatever they want about each other if that's how they choose to conduct themselves, but this claim ceases to be true the instant that community's contempt is turned on anyone who has not agreed to be a part of their community.
And I know not ALL Gutterites are making the "watchdog" claim, but for the ones that are, it rings extremely hollow when it's come to light that the Gutter's focus has almost entirely been turned on staff members only in situations where the staffer's actions affected a Gutterite or the Gutter itself. I'll admit that in all the examples I've seen where this was the case, the Gutterites were actually in the right, but when it only happens if your homeboys are threatened or the perpetrator was already in your sights due to past personal grievances, then at that point, it's not checks and balances, it's gang warfare, and you should stop wearing it as a feather in your cap. If there are several examples I've missed of it being done on a non-Gutter-member's behalf, then I'll buy the claim, but I've been looking and failing to find any, as much as I want there to be.
I do believe that some Gutterites like NS and Kijin ultimately have mostly good, if not somewhat misguided, intentions and have been outstanding members of the community in the past. I have a soft spot for subversive elements that serve the greater good, even when they don't agree with me. But the more I see from the Gutter in general, the less and less I believe that as a community it's anything of the sort, and the more I feel that it's just an elitist cesspit that serves little purpose but to unite like-minded miscreants in the spirit of nastiness and thumbing your nose at authority, elevating its members above the rest of the community they loathe.
Go ahead, pick apart this post piece by piece, I don't care. I've said my piece and believe everything I said, so outside of lurking, I'm done with this issue now and look forward to the Gutter's closing, or preferably a compromise that lightens the tone and transforms it from a place to roast people its users don't like to a place where people can share irreverent, controversial jokes and good times with each other. It'd even be great if the longest thread on MTGS ever could somehow be kept alive. But the current attitudes being expressed in by most of its defenders are doing a disservice to this possibility or highlight the fact that it is either not something they would accept, or not the real reason they're so attached to the Gutter.
You're welcome.
In what way and when? This sounds interesting.
This week's events are not what NS is referring to.
Okay, I agree with that completely. I really do think the order of operations was way off here (I mean, the obvious starting point should have been those mod lounge flame threads, cleaning things up internally before focusing outward). Unfortunately, we're beyond that point now. Which really sucks.
Certainly. You're right about that. I just sensed an implication that touching the Gutter was unjust without doing such things first. Forgive me if I'm wrong.
From what I've seen from the admins/globals in this thread, there are plans or at least desires to address all such problems across the entire forums, and this is just a starting point. I hope that's true at least. I'd be pretty disappointed if it wasn't.
Are you saying that no problem on the site should be addressed unless they can all be addressed at the same time? I actually feel pretty strongly what you're talking about in that regard, but bringing it up doesn't change this issue at all. I'd recommend bringing it up in another venue or time so it can get the attention it deserves.
Agree completely. When I saw why G_R had to step down just to speak his mind, I could only think to myself that that was a travesty. Honestly, allowing such discourse should only serve to improve the staff's image, as long as you're not constantly at each other's throats over menial things, which means there are more severe underlying problems to begin with. At the very least it would deflect so many of these accusations of corruption and users being silenced.