As far as gaining energy goes, we are really limited. Aside from Harness and Siphoner (both of which also consume energy) the only real option that is energy-positive is Live Fast. The card draw would be nice, but I'm not a fan of the life loss. Also, it's prolly worse than what we have in the deck now.
Re: double-coloured spells, I think it's correct to pull Gideon entirely and only have the single Fumigate needing double white. That takes a little pressure of the mana base. I'm also considering adding a Karn in here pretty much just for the card draw option. Dunno if that's practical tho.
I really need to get my hands on some cards or at least see a picture of what else is out there. I'm concerned we might be loaded up too much on removal and are weaker than necessary against control (that's actually why I like Angrath main, to shore up that matchup).
All that said, I think I'm really close to a starting list I'd feel comfortable sleeving up and taking for a spin.
Thanks! I started from a "typical" superfriends list I stumbled across, and moved things around to fit in the sagas. The original ran Aether Hubs with Harnessed Lightning and Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, but I don't know if that's correct for this variant. Especially with a creatureless maindeck meaning energy is much harder to come by.
Yeah Lili should be in there, oversight on my part (she wasn't in the base list I found, and aside from boarding Huatli I wasn't looking at the walker package). Thinking 1/1 between her and Gideon should work. My goldfishing has proved that WW on turn 3 is really difficult so one less need for that would be good. The mana still needs work. As it stands the percentages are good in terms of coloured sources to coloured requirements go, but it's low on sources in general (16B, 13R, 10W). I'm trying to bring those up but it's a challenge to get it balanced.
Nice to hear positive results. I can certainly see how aggro would be tough with the minimal interaction this version is packing. Being able to stabilize and take over is encouraging!
I fully support the transformational board approach - I'd plugged that into my 4C build (turning into Constrictor.dek), and in a more stable shell I can only think it would be better.
There's some good ideas in that list. I looked at a few of them in my earlier Bant builds, and we have discussed a couple others as well.
(As an aside, I'm a huge fan of "Sagageddon" and am totally stealing it.)
At this point it seems like we are still trying to figure out what the best shell is for this type of deck. So far we've got lists for Bant, Abzan, BW and 4C, plus talk of both Naya and Sultai. Of all the options and directions to take it, I think moving into midrange/control territory seems like the best way to go, and the 4C option is almost certainly the worst. Within that general "speed", we can look at ramping (likely Bant), going reactive/counter heavy (which pushes us most naturally into Bant or Esper depending on use of The Mending of Dominaria or not), and proactive/discard approach (prolly Abzan). The Naya monsters idea that Mongo suggested earlier also sounds interesting, but needs a list to start from.
Gonna do some more theorycrafting and see if I can put together some more optimized versions of some of these.
I’d tend to agree with that assessment. If specific enchantment hate becomes more common it might be worth slots in the main, but for now it seems like all our various lists are already having issues fitting everything in.
Seems like an OK start. I'm not a fan of Gideon or Bontu here, and it definitely needs more black mana sources. That said, I'm definitely going to use this as a jumpig off point tho! Hopefully I'll have the ability to actually test in the near future so I can post results instead of just theorycrafting.
Totally get that. I wasn't trying to step on your Abzan Rock toes. The aggro idea popped into my head and I figured I would post it while it was fresh. I'm a midrange player at heart - first really good competitive build was BG Rock list, back in the days of Extended with Spiritmonger, Pernicious Deed and the like - but I haven't had a good chance to sit down and brew that yet. If you've got a starting point in mind, go for it!
Fairly quick aggro with the 'geddon plan. The idea is to generate enough threats that they have to deal with those and then be unable to answer our 1-2 punch. Hoarder is required so it can die & treasure us enabling T4 Scriptures into T5 Fall so we can get our graveyard eating done on time.
I just saw elsewhere a BW brew combining Fall with Phyrexian Scriptures to eat opposing graveyards while retaining ours. That avenue opens up hand disruption as a control method. Could be a viable alternative direction.
OK yeah, 4 colours seems awful. I had hoped with the extra set of checklands that it might work, but I can't wrangle up anything that I'm happy with after all.
My initial build basically won with Nissa or decking (as Blessings can cycle our yard back), but that's pretty slow and prolly rage-inducing. We could always go for self-mill with Blessing and Ipnu Rivulet?
I think you're right about relying on artifacts. At this point it's likely just asking for trouble as we get caught by people already bringing hate for other decks. We don't need to be collateral damage there.
Seems like we are heading toward a decision between faster ramp-based and slower control-based strategies, which I think will lead us to very different finisher options. In either case there's the possibility of just splashing white for Fall, and going heavy into 1 or 2 other "main" colours.
Re: double-coloured spells, I think it's correct to pull Gideon entirely and only have the single Fumigate needing double white. That takes a little pressure of the mana base. I'm also considering adding a Karn in here pretty much just for the card draw option. Dunno if that's practical tho.
I really need to get my hands on some cards or at least see a picture of what else is out there. I'm concerned we might be loaded up too much on removal and are weaker than necessary against control (that's actually why I like Angrath main, to shore up that matchup).
All that said, I think I'm really close to a starting list I'd feel comfortable sleeving up and taking for a spin.
Yeah Lili should be in there, oversight on my part (she wasn't in the base list I found, and aside from boarding Huatli I wasn't looking at the walker package). Thinking 1/1 between her and Gideon should work. My goldfishing has proved that WW on turn 3 is really difficult so one less need for that would be good. The mana still needs work. As it stands the percentages are good in terms of coloured sources to coloured requirements go, but it's low on sources in general (16B, 13R, 10W). I'm trying to bring those up but it's a challenge to get it balanced.
3 Canyon Slough
3 Clifftop Retreat
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Mountain
3 Plains
5 Swamp
Enchantments (10)
3 Fall of the Thran
2 Ixalan's Binding
3 Phyrexian Scriptures
2 Seal Away
2 Abrade
3 Fatal Push
3 Unlicensed Disintegration
2 Vraska's Contempt
Sorceries (8)
2 Doomfall
4 Duress
1 Fumigate
1 Never // Return
Planeswalkers (7)
2 Angrath, the Flame-Chained
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Gideon of the Trials
1 Abrade
2 Authority of the Consuls
1 Cut // Ribbons
2 Doomfall
3 Glorybringer
1 Huatli, Warrior Poet
3 Rekindling Phoenix
2 Sweltering Suns
I fully support the transformational board approach - I'd plugged that into my 4C build (turning into Constrictor.dek), and in a more stable shell I can only think it would be better.
(As an aside, I'm a huge fan of "Sagageddon" and am totally stealing it.)
At this point it seems like we are still trying to figure out what the best shell is for this type of deck. So far we've got lists for Bant, Abzan, BW and 4C, plus talk of both Naya and Sultai. Of all the options and directions to take it, I think moving into midrange/control territory seems like the best way to go, and the 4C option is almost certainly the worst. Within that general "speed", we can look at ramping (likely Bant), going reactive/counter heavy (which pushes us most naturally into Bant or Esper depending on use of The Mending of Dominaria or not), and proactive/discard approach (prolly Abzan). The Naya monsters idea that Mongo suggested earlier also sounds interesting, but needs a list to start from.
Gonna do some more theorycrafting and see if I can put together some more optimized versions of some of these.
3 Deathgorge Scavenger
1 Noxious Gearhulk
2 Lyra Dawnbringer
3 Sunscourge Champion
2 Ravenous Chupacabra
2 Thrashing Brontodon
Enchantments
3 Fall of the Thran
1 The Mending of Dominaria
3 Phyrexian Scriptures
2 Seal Away
Instants
3 Vraska's Contempt
3 Fatal Push
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Field of Ruin
4 Scattered Groves
5 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
Planeswalkers
2 Ajani Unyielding
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker
Sorceries
4 Duress
2 Cast Out
1 Fatal Push
2 Seal Away
3 Moment of Craving
4 Harsh Scrutiny
1 Ixalan's Binding
4 Phyrexian Scriptures
2 Legion's Landing
4 Dire Fleet Hoarder
4 Servo Exhibition
3 Walking Ballista
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
3 Sunscourge Champion
24 Land
Creatures:
2 Deathgorge Scavenger
2 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
2 Hostage Taker
1 Muldrotha, the Gravetide
2 Ravenous Chupacabra
2 Thrashing Brontodon
3 Walking Ballista
4 Fall of the Thran
4 The Mending of Dominaria
Instants:
4 Fatal Push
3 Scarab Feast
3 Vraska's Contempt
Planeswalkers
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
Sorceries:
2 Gaea's Blessing
3 Hadana's Climb
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
2 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1 The Scarab God
4 Winding Constrictor
1 TBD
At one point I'd added a couple of Sandwurm Convergence instead of the Teferis. There's always Sylvan Awakening. Or we could go Sultai (splash white for Fall only) and run Muldrotha, the Gravetide as a wincon and extra recursion.
I think you're right about relying on artifacts. At this point it's likely just asking for trouble as we get caught by people already bringing hate for other decks. We don't need to be collateral damage there.
Seems like we are heading toward a decision between faster ramp-based and slower control-based strategies, which I think will lead us to very different finisher options. In either case there's the possibility of just splashing white for Fall, and going heavy into 1 or 2 other "main" colours.