Climb is better with Constrictor, no question. But it's not trash here. One of the main things I've found this deck stumbling with is chump blockers. Climb gives us an out to that. It also lets us make our own blockers for Hearts, Lyras, dragons & birds.
So I’m working on both the Bant and G/u options. Prolly taking Bant to FNM this week so I will be able to report back on that. From reports last week the turnout was 60/40 aggro. If it scouts the same this week it’s really tempting to main Settles over B Defense.
Spell Pierce is near the top of my shortlist in both sideboards. I’m really high on Hadana’s Climb right now... T1 Lawnmower into T2 Jadelight into T3 Climb & flip right away is a crazy good start and enables ridiculousness (one of my test games saw me down 5-17 life facing lethal, and I won out with a Rhonas activation on Carny T then flying over for 18). Shalai feels like a worthwhile inclusion as well simply because she makes removal less effective.
One way or another I think there is real potential here.
Is there room in this thread to look at 3-colour builds? I just hopped on last night with a little bit of testing against WB Vehicles and Jund Walkers, and was suitably impressed with the results to think there might be something here. First the deck:
Right off the hop, I'll concede that this version is prolly a turn or two slower than mono-green or the single-splash decks, and it does lose out on the turn 3 Ghalta option. In return, it gains a more resilient later game plan which can be a real asset in some game ones. The sideboard is where I think this approach really shines. The walker package changes the dynamic of post-board games (an earlier iteration of this list forced a concession from WB with Dovin, Teferi and Oath on board, so that's a thing). Threat diversity is the name of the game here. I'll note that the sideboard Settles and Negates are strictly my first thoughts here, as I was just looking for cards to round out the walkers during testing. I'm quite sure they will change.
I definitely agree about the need for pressure. On the flip side, I'd say 90+% of my wins in testing Esper have come from Approach, so I'm not totally discounting that tactic yet. Really i think it comes down to what we pair with our white. Green lends itself to an aggressive start using Fall to seal the deal, while in my experience blue/black suggest a more controlling variant/ (Tho I did look briefly at aggro B/w Zombies and W/b Knights.)
Of the ramp variants, I'm most partial to an artifact/enchantment-heavy approach simply because of the absurd amount of creature removal right now. I actually started in Bant, looking to capitalize on Bounty of the Luxa, as well as green mana ramp. The goal there being to Fall on turn 4/5 as reliably as possible. I think the Bounty + artifact mana (Powerstone Shard, Cultivator's Caravan, etc.) could be good. Caravan especially is nice to have on the field after wiping land, as it's pretty trivial to get a cheap 3/x dude on the board, especially in green. Land ramp is a little counterproductive, but with The Mending of Dominaria out we rebuild far faster even if we don't either destroy our own Fall or sneak in a graveyard wipe between triggers.
All that said, it might just be that Fall is too slow. Not being able to naturally come down til T6 makes it significantly harder to build with than the Armageddon decks of yore. Dunno.
A disappointing 1-3 at Saturday Showdown this weekend (W v BG Saprolings, L v WB Vehicles, RG Monsters, UBg Control) tells me that this idea - at least the way I envision it, which is certainly not the end-all and be-all of things - needs a ton of help. My solution for the moment is to board the Falls, as they are best against midrange and slower decks, and run the main as a slightly offbeat UBw Approach list. After a handful of games testing today, here's where I'm at to start (and yes I know I could use a couple more W sources - land availability issues due to one collection feeding multiple decks for multiple people):
My limited testing today was a handful of pre-board games against WB Vehicles, and 1 pre/1 post board game against Jund Superfriends. It still lost to BW, but I made it a whole lot closer than previous lists which tells me I'm on the right track there. And I won both games against Jund, which is the type of matchup where Fall just shines. I know it's got a way to go from here, but this feels better already. I'm especially a fan of T4 Scriptures into T5 Teferi, so much so that I'm looking for ways to bring that PW count up to 3.
Yeah it definitely needs more finishers at lower costs. I’d like to hear more from your accelerated build testing.
I’m still liking Mardu, but I’ve also been tinkering with an Esper list that uses Zahid (taking a suggestion from this thread) as well as Tezzeret the Schemer for both accel and artifact support. Only goldfished online at the moment but it seems quite consistent and recovers faster. I’d really like an equivalent cheap finisher in Mardu.
Round 1 vs UW Flash Legends (W 2-1). Won game 1 with my slight amount of MD hand control and Approach. He didn't know what I was on which helped tremendously. Lost the second because all of the counters + Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, Gideon of the Trials and History of Benalia. Won game 3 with Scriptures > Fall and building back up into the Approach finish while he sat on a lonely island. He told me after the game that he misplayed against Fall, choosing Supreme Will over Disallow when I had a land and 3 treasures open. Sketchy but I'll take it! SB: -3 Push, -2 Seal, -1 Fumigate, -1 Swelter; +3 Duress, +1 Demystify, +2 Torment of Scarabs, +1 Vraska's Contempt.
Round 2 vs UW Approach (L 0-2). Nothing to say really, we both durdled in game 1 which his deck is far better at than mine. He cast Approach on turn 7, then I cast mine right after, and we raced for card selection to see who could get there first. He countered 3(!) Treasure Maps, and secured the win by casting Overflowing Insight to draw all the cards including Approach. Game 2 I was able to Sagageddon but had no follow up plays while he built back up and repeated the game 1 win. Notably I saw nothing of my hand disruption aside from a single Doomfall. SB: Same as round 1.
Bonus content: I landed Torment of Scarabs in game 2 but it was inconsequential because I had no pressure to back it up. I asked my opponent after the game and he said that the Doomfall was the scariest card against him.
Round 3 vs BR Pirates (L 0-2). So yeah. Variance is a thing. Game 1 I started with 2 land, Seal, Abrade and some costlier goodness. In hindsight I should have mulled but against an unknown deck with some early interaction I felt good about my chances. Proceeded to go 6 turns without another land, and when I did find one of course it was a checkland with no basics on board. Died to beats including a bunch of drain from Forerunner of the Coalition. He played very cautiously, barely attacking, and I finally scooped with Kitesail Freebooter on the stack. Dead on board already, you don't need to see my cards too. Game 2 started better, I had some removal for his stuff, feeling good. Then I goofed (again, in hindsight). Treasure Map showed me a Vraska's Contempt vs his empty board. I bottomed it as I had some removal in hand for any dudes that might come down, and I was digging for a wincon. Then he drops Angrath, the Flame Chained next turn and I proceed to die from 6 activations, his ultimate and a pair of Lightning Strikes to the face. Honestly this should have been a gimme win, but this was my turn to lose to the RNG. SB: -2 Angrath, -1 Fall, -1 Map, -1 Approach; +1 Cut, +1 Spray, +2 Swelter, +1 Contempt.
Round 4 vs GB Torment of Saprolings (W 2-1). Crushed with Sagageddon into Approach in games 1 and 3, got curb stomped game 2 (Saproling Migration turn 2 and 3, double Sporecrown Thallid turn 4). Slight land issues again but I don't know it made a difference. SB: -1 Angrath, -1 Chandra, -2 Doomfall; +1 Cut, +1 Spray, +2 Swelter.
Final thoughts: When it works, it works very well indeed. Treasure Map is the real deal both for card selection and rebuilding after a Fall. The consistency isn't quite there yet, and it's slooooow. I don't think Angrath belongs here; certainly not in the main. He's only good against control and only then if supported with more discard. The other maindeck card I wasn't jazzed about was Seal Away. Could be because I just had some W issues casting it early once or twice, but I think I could do better. I'm considering some number of Unlicensed Disintegrations and/or Walking Ballistas main in these 4 slots. As for the sideboard, Torment of Scarabs did not do what I wanted at all, and I'm pretty sure the couple of Sunscourge Champion slots could be better used as well. I'm sad I didn't see anything running artifacts for my gremlins to eat, but I think those cards deserve to stay for now. Control seems like the real struggle that the board needs to be weighted against. I'm considering a large (11-12 card) transformation into speedy aggro dudes, but that's a knee-jerk reaction that needs more thought.
Thoughts, comments, observations etc. are all welcomed!
Zahid seems interesting! We did briefly disuss going the artifact ramp route early in the thread, and ditched it due to expecting a whole truckload of Abrades, Thrashing Brontodons and Cast Outs. However a critical mass of artifacts could become overwhelming, and Zahid seems like a solid contender for a beefy finisher. Hmmmm....
You might be right, but I'm still gonna give it a go - at least for one FNM. I'm tweaking a version of my earlier Mardu list which should hopefully pack enough removal for dudes and disruption to get the main pieces through vs control. Reporting back on the weekend!
Wouldnt it be easier with this type of list to establish board control, then drop the geddon, then just kill it with an enchantment removal spell to retain your board presence? Seems like you guys are derping around too much with this list, with all the high mana cost stuff.
Good question.
Pretty much all of the recent lists and brainstorming have been focused on being the control, so that covers the first part. I don't see that changing regardless of the "how do we deal with our own Fall?" option.
As for the second, I think it comes down to how fast we want/are able to execute. In an ideal world under the graveyard wipe plan, T5 Scriptures into T6 Fall is a strong line of play that allows for the first few turns to be board control and the turns immediately after to be ramped-up building. The self-removal approach by necessity delays the earliest Fall by at least one turn so we can also have a land drop and enchantment removal to play on the same turn after it goes off. The first turns are still board control but now you're also bringing in board development, likely further slowing it down.
Having said all that, I think that either going for the fast combo punch or taking the slow and steady approach could be equally viable. The latest lists by Mongo and BigSmeez both forgo the graveyard wipe, which is a little more in line with what you are suggesting. It's quite possible that adding in removal for our Fall could be a thing there - I'll defer comment on that to them as they have done the testing.
Feel welcome to tweak one of those lists (or present your own) to give us a more concrete example of what you're aiming for. We are nowhere near the point of having a "best build" so the more ideas we can work with, the better!
@Mongo - your comment about the deck not working when its sole focus is the one-sided 'geddon effect is on the nose. All the parts need to work together such that even without blowing up lands, the deck has staying power and wincons to get there. I'm convinced that WB/x is the way to go, simply because Fall+Scriptures is the cleanest way to go one-sided and requires no additional cards, only the right sequencing.
I'm still most likely on the Mardu plan, bur I also built a rough Esper list just to see what that would look like. I took a relatively proven Esper control shell and made room for the combo. (To get 3 each Fall and Scriptures I removed from the stock list 2 each of Scarab God, T-Hulk and Settle. Pretty sure the rest is as I found it.)
Partly. He's also practically impossible to remove (short of Ixalan's Binding or Gideon's Intervention) and so can be a slow wincon if it absolutely comes down to it. I found in testing that I was a little short of ways to close out the game, and wanted something resilient. In-colour the only other option that fits is The Scorpion God, but that has more answers to it thanks to all the exile effects running around. It might just be terrible but that's my M.O.
I think this is where I'm starting from as soon as I can put cards together. It seems to goldfish pretty smoothly via online builder test hands. Sideboard is intented to be as catch-all as possible.
I'm trying to make room for 3-4 Treasure Maps, both for digging and for the fixing/ramp from treasure tokens. Would be handy to have 1 or 2 unflipped on the board, Fall, then scry to flip them after. Prolly too small a number of artifacts to turn on Spire of Industry, but they would add incremental value to Unlicensed Disintegration.
(There's also a full set of always enter tapped lands but I'd rather not consider those.)
The problem is that we can't run them all. We would have 24 lands between these, but only 4 with basic typing to turn on the checklands, and at best 5/8 fastlands coming in tapped. Allied shards are better positioned in this regard because two sets of cycling lands by themselves means double chance of turning on checklands, and only a single fastland set reduces the number of lands always coming in tapped. Unlike Mardu Cars we don't have access to Spire of Industry to smooth us, and Aether Hub without support is sketchy. Unless we can get the mana figured out we're in trouble.
Spell Pierce is near the top of my shortlist in both sideboards. I’m really high on Hadana’s Climb right now... T1 Lawnmower into T2 Jadelight into T3 Climb & flip right away is a crazy good start and enables ridiculousness (one of my test games saw me down 5-17 life facing lethal, and I won out with a Rhonas activation on Carny T then flying over for 18). Shalai feels like a worthwhile inclusion as well simply because she makes removal less effective.
One way or another I think there is real potential here.
4 Botanical Sanctum
4 Forest
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Scattered Groves
4 Sunpetal Grove
Enchantments
3 Hadana's Climb
2 Ixalan's Binding
2 Oath of Ajani
3 Blossoming Defense
Planeswalkers
2 Nissa, Steward of Elements
Creatures
3 Carnage Tyrant
2 Ghalta, Primal Hunger
4 Jadelight Ranger
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
2 Rhonas the Indomitable
2 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
2 Steel Leaf Champion
2 Thrashing Brontodon
1 Ajani Unyielding
2 Dovin Baan
4 Negate
2 Oath of Teferi
3 Settle the Wreckage
3 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Constructive critiques and suggestions welcomed!
Of the ramp variants, I'm most partial to an artifact/enchantment-heavy approach simply because of the absurd amount of creature removal right now. I actually started in Bant, looking to capitalize on Bounty of the Luxa, as well as green mana ramp. The goal there being to Fall on turn 4/5 as reliably as possible. I think the Bounty + artifact mana (Powerstone Shard, Cultivator's Caravan, etc.) could be good. Caravan especially is nice to have on the field after wiping land, as it's pretty trivial to get a cheap 3/x dude on the board, especially in green. Land ramp is a little counterproductive, but with The Mending of Dominaria out we rebuild far faster even if we don't either destroy our own Fall or sneak in a graveyard wipe between triggers.
All that said, it might just be that Fall is too slow. Not being able to naturally come down til T6 makes it significantly harder to build with than the Armageddon decks of yore. Dunno.
1 Cascading Cataracts
1 Concealed Courtyard
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Irrigated Farmland
2 Island
2 Isolated Chapel
1 Plains
5 Swamp
Enchantments (7)
4 Phyrexian Scriptures
2 Seal Away
1 Search for Azcanta
2 Cast Down
2 Disallow
2 Fatal Push
2 settle the Wreckage
3 Supreme Will
3 Vraska's Contempt
Sorceries (5)
2 Approach of the Second Sun
3 Doomfall
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Creatures (6)
2 Torrential Gearhulk
4 Walking Ballista
3 Duress
3 Fall of the Thran
1 Fatal Push
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Glyph Keeper
1 Ixalan's Binding
1 Settle the Wreckage
2 Tezzeret the Schemer
I’m still liking Mardu, but I’ve also been tinkering with an Esper list that uses Zahid (taking a suggestion from this thread) as well as Tezzeret the Schemer for both accel and artifact support. Only goldfished online at the moment but it seems quite consistent and recovers faster. I’d really like an equivalent cheap finisher in Mardu.
4 Canyon Slough
4 Clifftop Retreat
2 Concealed Courtyard
4 Dragonskull Summit
1 Inspiring Vantage
4 Isolated Chapel
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Swamp
Artifact (4)
4 Treasure Map
Enchantment (12)
4 Fall of the Thran
2 Ixalan's Binding
4 Phyrexian Scriptures
2 Seal Away
2 Abrade
3 Fatal Push
2 Vraska's Contempt
Sorcery (6)
2 Approach of the Second Sun
2 Doomfall
1 Fumigate
1 Sweltering Suns
Planeswalker (6)
2 Angrath, the Flame-Chained
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Cut // Ribbons
1 Demystify
3 Duress
1 Magma Spray
2 Release the Gremlins
2 Sweltering Suns
2 Sunscourge Champion
2 Torment of Scarabs
1 Vraska's Contempt
Round 1 vs UW Flash Legends (W 2-1). Won game 1 with my slight amount of MD hand control and Approach. He didn't know what I was on which helped tremendously. Lost the second because all of the counters + Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, Gideon of the Trials and History of Benalia. Won game 3 with Scriptures > Fall and building back up into the Approach finish while he sat on a lonely island. He told me after the game that he misplayed against Fall, choosing Supreme Will over Disallow when I had a land and 3 treasures open. Sketchy but I'll take it! SB: -3 Push, -2 Seal, -1 Fumigate, -1 Swelter; +3 Duress, +1 Demystify, +2 Torment of Scarabs, +1 Vraska's Contempt.
Round 2 vs UW Approach (L 0-2). Nothing to say really, we both durdled in game 1 which his deck is far better at than mine. He cast Approach on turn 7, then I cast mine right after, and we raced for card selection to see who could get there first. He countered 3(!) Treasure Maps, and secured the win by casting Overflowing Insight to draw all the cards including Approach. Game 2 I was able to Sagageddon but had no follow up plays while he built back up and repeated the game 1 win. Notably I saw nothing of my hand disruption aside from a single Doomfall. SB: Same as round 1.
Bonus content: I landed Torment of Scarabs in game 2 but it was inconsequential because I had no pressure to back it up. I asked my opponent after the game and he said that the Doomfall was the scariest card against him.
Round 3 vs BR Pirates (L 0-2). So yeah. Variance is a thing. Game 1 I started with 2 land, Seal, Abrade and some costlier goodness. In hindsight I should have mulled but against an unknown deck with some early interaction I felt good about my chances. Proceeded to go 6 turns without another land, and when I did find one of course it was a checkland with no basics on board. Died to beats including a bunch of drain from Forerunner of the Coalition. He played very cautiously, barely attacking, and I finally scooped with Kitesail Freebooter on the stack. Dead on board already, you don't need to see my cards too. Game 2 started better, I had some removal for his stuff, feeling good. Then I goofed (again, in hindsight). Treasure Map showed me a Vraska's Contempt vs his empty board. I bottomed it as I had some removal in hand for any dudes that might come down, and I was digging for a wincon. Then he drops Angrath, the Flame Chained next turn and I proceed to die from 6 activations, his ultimate and a pair of Lightning Strikes to the face. Honestly this should have been a gimme win, but this was my turn to lose to the RNG. SB: -2 Angrath, -1 Fall, -1 Map, -1 Approach; +1 Cut, +1 Spray, +2 Swelter, +1 Contempt.
Round 4 vs GB Torment of Saprolings (W 2-1). Crushed with Sagageddon into Approach in games 1 and 3, got curb stomped game 2 (Saproling Migration turn 2 and 3, double Sporecrown Thallid turn 4). Slight land issues again but I don't know it made a difference. SB: -1 Angrath, -1 Chandra, -2 Doomfall; +1 Cut, +1 Spray, +2 Swelter.
Final thoughts: When it works, it works very well indeed. Treasure Map is the real deal both for card selection and rebuilding after a Fall. The consistency isn't quite there yet, and it's slooooow. I don't think Angrath belongs here; certainly not in the main. He's only good against control and only then if supported with more discard. The other maindeck card I wasn't jazzed about was Seal Away. Could be because I just had some W issues casting it early once or twice, but I think I could do better. I'm considering some number of Unlicensed Disintegrations and/or Walking Ballistas main in these 4 slots. As for the sideboard, Torment of Scarabs did not do what I wanted at all, and I'm pretty sure the couple of Sunscourge Champion slots could be better used as well. I'm sad I didn't see anything running artifacts for my gremlins to eat, but I think those cards deserve to stay for now. Control seems like the real struggle that the board needs to be weighted against. I'm considering a large (11-12 card) transformation into speedy aggro dudes, but that's a knee-jerk reaction that needs more thought.
Thoughts, comments, observations etc. are all welcomed!
Good question.
Pretty much all of the recent lists and brainstorming have been focused on being the control, so that covers the first part. I don't see that changing regardless of the "how do we deal with our own Fall?" option.
As for the second, I think it comes down to how fast we want/are able to execute. In an ideal world under the graveyard wipe plan, T5 Scriptures into T6 Fall is a strong line of play that allows for the first few turns to be board control and the turns immediately after to be ramped-up building. The self-removal approach by necessity delays the earliest Fall by at least one turn so we can also have a land drop and enchantment removal to play on the same turn after it goes off. The first turns are still board control but now you're also bringing in board development, likely further slowing it down.
Having said all that, I think that either going for the fast combo punch or taking the slow and steady approach could be equally viable. The latest lists by Mongo and BigSmeez both forgo the graveyard wipe, which is a little more in line with what you are suggesting. It's quite possible that adding in removal for our Fall could be a thing there - I'll defer comment on that to them as they have done the testing.
Feel welcome to tweak one of those lists (or present your own) to give us a more concrete example of what you're aiming for. We are nowhere near the point of having a "best build" so the more ideas we can work with, the better!
I'm still most likely on the Mardu plan, bur I also built a rough Esper list just to see what that would look like. I took a relatively proven Esper control shell and made room for the combo. (To get 3 each Fall and Scriptures I removed from the stock list 2 each of Scarab God, T-Hulk and Settle. Pretty sure the rest is as I found it.)
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Irrigated Farmland
2 Island
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Fall of the Thran
3 Phyrexian Scriptures
1 Profane Procession
3 Seal Away
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Disallow
3 Fatal Push
4 Hieroglyphic Illumination
1 Syncopate
3 Vraska's Contempt
1 Dovin Baan
1 Karn, Scin of Urza
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
4 Canyon Slough
4 Clifftop Retreat
2 Concealed Courtyard
4 Dragonskull Summit
1 Inspiring Vantage
4 Isolated Chapel
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Swamp
Artifacts (4)
4 Treasure Map
Creatures (1)
1 Squee, the Immortal
Enchantments (11)
3 Fall of the Thran
2 Ixalan's Binding
3 Phyrexian Scriptures
2 Seal Away
2 Abrade
3 Fatal Push
2 Vraska's Contempt
Sorceries (7)
2 Approach of the Second Sun
4 Duress
1 Fumigate
Planeswalkers (6)
2 Angrath, the Flame-Chained
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Cut // Ribbons
1 Demystify
2 Doomfall
1 Magma Spray
3 Release the Gremlins
2 Sunscourge Champion
2 Sweltering Suns
2 Torment of Scarabs
1 Vraska's Contempt
Allied paired duals have checklands (Dragonskull Summit) and cycling lands (Canyon Slough).
(There's also a full set of always enter tapped lands but I'd rather not consider those.)
The problem is that we can't run them all. We would have 24 lands between these, but only 4 with basic typing to turn on the checklands, and at best 5/8 fastlands coming in tapped. Allied shards are better positioned in this regard because two sets of cycling lands by themselves means double chance of turning on checklands, and only a single fastland set reduces the number of lands always coming in tapped. Unlike Mardu Cars we don't have access to Spire of Industry to smooth us, and Aether Hub without support is sketchy. Unless we can get the mana figured out we're in trouble.