Can't say anything with any level of confidence without testing the matchup, but on paper BG seems to outvalue and eventually outsize us. Not just your list but it seems most of what we've been posting. I know I will be reevaluating some of my choices based on this weekend's results...
For your list specifically I think more removal is prolly the first step, and Servant seems the likely place to get it. The one-off Expertise maybe as well. Snare still looks good as BG only has a pair of enchantment removals in the board, so whatever you get is likely staying gotten. Blessed Alliance might be good as it doesn't care about creature size. Cataclysmic Gearhulk could be interesting too, as long as you can remove Ballista prior to casting. Anything beyond that is me talking outta my butt so I'll stop there
Collective effort does not have a mana cost to escalate; each escalation "costs" tapping an untapped creature you control. The untapped creatures are conveniently provided by Sram's Expertise.
Totally fair comment. Until I see more decks I am pretty much in full mad scientist mode.
Did you run the "proliferate" list as posted on page 1, or did you make any changes? At the moment you're the only one with results so I'm thinking we should back up and start from there.
As an related aside, what other decks did you see being played?
The Expertise+Effort combo is nifty, but so far at least it doesn't look like we're going for a tokens strategy (personally if I were doing that I'd run Azban colours).
Meanwhile I've brewed up some changes to my last list, this time taking it in a practically creatureless direction...
I can't say that this is better than anything else we've come up with, but it seems interesting. Magnifying Glass is probably the jankiest inclusion here, but with only 23 lands the pair of glasses adds ramp as well as some late game draw power.
Techno, it just occurred to me that curve is a problem, and I failed to consider the burden of double-colors on the deck. That's really not an issue for Nissa because Oath of Nissa serves to make up for a lack of 2 green, but I agree it's tough to run both UU and WW as well. I'm leaning towards WW for snare, and a weaker counterspell for 1U or 2U. I would not cut Nissa here, because that raises the planeswalker curve too much. It already seems a bit high as is: Count how many 2 drops you have, and how many 4. I haven't liked Ajani's Oath in testing, Gideon's is more suitable usually, though again curve needs to be solved. Heart of Kiran deserve a spot if budget allows.
I agree with Snare being the better option. As far as a replacement for Disallow goes, I'm actually goldfishing a playset of Anticipate right now instead of counters. Looking back through the various builds in the thread, it seems that aside from Tamiyo's +1 and Nissa's ultimate, we've neglected card draw -- which, for a control-esque deck like this seems to be leaning towards, could a real problem.
While I agree with the curve being generally high, I'm still not 100% convinced on little Nissa, especially as she is competing for a pretty crowded 3cc slot, but I'll stick her back in (moving Dovin to the board) and tinker some more. Trying to work Oath of Nissa back into my list to help with the fixing. Maybe an updated list later tonight; if not, sometime tomorrow!
I'd want to goldfish the heck out of that particular change to make sure the mana base can handle it, as it's adding a bunch of early game WW and UU (and we already want early GG for Nissa). Duals or not, that feels a little greedy.
Assuming it's viable, and two walkers take one for the team (my first thoughts would be a pick 2 from Kiora, a Dovin or a Nissa) along with the Unsubs, that frees up 6 slots. In an unknown meta I'm always inclined to balance my answers, so I would lean to running a 3/3 split of Disallow and Stasis Snare.
I think Unsubstantiate could still have a home in the board, as it provides an additional answer to a resolved Gideon as well as letting us abuse timing tricks with Spell Queller. I don't like giving out SB advice in general, as that should really be local meta dependent, so grain of salt and all that. Still I think some SB slots are probably fairly universal, those being an additional sweeper(s), extra stall vs aggro, and some way to interact with artifacts and enchantments.
With regard to Oath of Ajani and Always watching, I don't think this particular brew is meant for those cards. Only 9 creatures main (tokens don't count for Watching) doesn't give those enough value in my opinion. Depending on the SB they could make it into a transformer-like build there? The low creature count is less of a concern re: Tamiyo's +1, as putting it on the opponent's creatures guarantees either a card or a pseudo-fog, and we're prolly happy either way.
I'm hoping to get in some testing in the next few days once I can get my hands on cards, and then I'll have some real data to back up any further changes.
(Edit because brain)
The thought occurred that we could mitigate the double-mana load a bit by dropping all 3 little Nissas. Without Heart & without the proliferator dudes she perhaps has less value than the other walkers?
I've been tweaking a build of this as well, starting off the originals and going from there. I don't have it on paper, only goldfishing sample hands, but it seems to curve out pretty smoothly. I'm expecting a lot of aggro which is why both Thalia and Authority are main. Not sure if those are enough to slow the early game down, but it's where I'm starting from.
I've been brewing this nonsense of a deck on and off for months (I also played SF pretty heavily during its original time in Standard waaaaay back when). I started out on the Grixis path then and now, but lately I'm liking a Jeskai configuration. Cards are out of the house and I don't have the exact mana base memorized, but the gist of it is:
Sideboard varies wildly but usually contains:
2-3 Pithing Needle
0-1 Terminus
1-2 Anger of the Gods
Some number of situational counters
Sometimes 4 beaters to bring in when I really don't want to Fate
Keranos is my colours' version of Ashiok, Nightmare Keeper but I've found it to be much more resilient. Slower too, but I'm not built to windmill a T5 Fate so it's fine for that. I've also randomly won games with him (and Fate sitting my hand) more than a few times. I see a lot of aggro decks, which is why Wall/Skite are main. Condemn is ridiculously good for me because of that as well. The counters are the weak link, as with only 8 main it frequently happens that I'm a turn late in drawing one. Considering ditching them completely for more removal or shenanigans like Bronze Bombshell as yet another non-Fate wincon.
Is Plasm Capture a viable addition to a Deadeye Navigator combo deck? Am I overkilling the concept? First (admittedly sketchy) draft looks something like this:
After a little virtual goldfishing, I have questions about a few of the cards, which is why I'm coming here...
Zhur-taa Druid: should these be Scorned Villager? Do I need all 4 slots?
Combo pieces: currently have 3 each; should any be 4, given the card draw?
Planeswalkers: are Jace AoT and Ral the right options here? And in the right quantities?
Think Twice: these are competing in the 2 slot. Should I replace with a 3-mana option like Divination or Forbidden Alchemy? Or go for a cheap red looting effect instead?
Urban Evolution: I'm pretty sure this has a place, just not sure about the numbers.
Land: is 23 enough given the ramp potential?
Removal: or lack thereof. I know what I should try to fit in, just not sure where.
The "sideboard" is just a list of cards up for consideration (either main or side). I'm sure I have overlooked some obvious cards... don't be afraid tell me what they are!
Thoughts, comments and critiques welcomed and appreciated!
This is my take on a midrange/control-ish Grixis. Pretty standard choices for the most part, with a couple of randoms cause I like making people do double-takes.
I've moved the Rift+Return package to the board, along with Far // Away, since my meta tends to feature swarm aggro. I run a few "swing slots" that change depending on what I see before the event: Thespian's Stage is interchangeable with Ghost Quarter (mainly if I see Wolf-Run decks floating around), and Izzet Charm sometimes steps aside for Dreadbore.
And don't laugh (too hard) at Ludevic's Test Subject - it's won a somewhat disturbing number of games in testing.
Playtest name: Aggropotence (if I were actually naming it, I'd call it By Demons Be Driven)
Skip your draw step.
Whenever a creature you control attacks, put a 1/1 black Demon creature token with flying onto the battlefield tapped and attacking.
At the beginning of your end step, you lose 1 life for each Demon you control and draw that many cards.
Just sign here and you'll receive our free* Ever-Growing Army of Demons starter kit (*demon food not included).
-----
Yes, it's a life-for-cards effect, but it's more complex than just a card advantage engine.
- The creature-centric nature of this card plays well with the current design philosophy of "turn guys sideways to win" (not stating that is good or bad...)
- It fits well with black's suicidal tendencies and "whatever it takes" attitude
- It requires forethought and some amount of decision making ability to manage once it's in play
- It's a build-around-me card instead of a random auto-include, which in my mind at least should encourage creative deck building
On the surface I can see a passing similarity to Symbiotic Deployment + Goblin Assault (not to mention pinching what has been purely a white mechanic), but the feel of this card is quite undeniably black. It's different enough from what currently exists and other examples I've seen to warrant consideration.
I think you can free up 2 spots by taking out 1 Phoenix and 1 Banefire, and put in something cheap (like an early blocker, or maindeck Celestial Purge if your meta allows). Scepter of Dominance is awesome, but I can understand problems since you run 3 colors.
Kor Skyfisher for doing the repeat EtB effects? You could always throw in Lightning Bolt alternatively.
Not a bad idea at all. I'm thinking Naya Charm could be good in those 2 free slots. My meta is all over the place so I'm not sure if maindeck colour-specific removal is the best call. I had a look at that Emeria control deck in your sig and I'm now trying to make room for one or two Obelisk of Alara, which I had totally forgotten about. I think the Magma Sprays may get the axe for it.
Whoops, I guess this isn't really a Budget build, but it is definitely marginally-successful enough to be considered Casual!
I've been running Naya LD over the last couple weeks. It needs work, but maybe some good ideas can come out of this thread? The incarnation I'm intending to take next FNM looks like this (cards/numbers in brackets are alternate build options; it seemed easier than posting 2 lists for a couple minor differences (I don't know why the tags aren't working on those cards)):
What's not there:
I had previously run Jungle Shrines, but the ETB tapped slowed me down too many times.
Scepter of Dominance used to be there in place of the Banefires. I found them to be too slow and colour-intensive (even with the Shrines and mana-fixing). They may make it back in at some point.
Enlisted Wurm was great when it cascaded into LD or a Phoenix, but too often it would just hit Growth/Trace and :facepalm:. It also made the deck too top-heavy, and I needed more spots for removal... so out he came. Again, may be back later.
The worst match-ups in the last 2 weeks were RDW and WW. Hopefully with the extra removal in this build that will change, but I think there is still room for improvement.
For your list specifically I think more removal is prolly the first step, and Servant seems the likely place to get it. The one-off Expertise maybe as well. Snare still looks good as BG only has a pair of enchantment removals in the board, so whatever you get is likely staying gotten. Blessed Alliance might be good as it doesn't care about creature size. Cataclysmic Gearhulk could be interesting too, as long as you can remove Ballista prior to casting. Anything beyond that is me talking outta my butt so I'll stop there
Would you remove / board the Stasis Snares? Amything in the board that you didn't use & would change?
Did you run the "proliferate" list as posted on page 1, or did you make any changes? At the moment you're the only one with results so I'm thinking we should back up and start from there.
As an related aside, what other decks did you see being played?
Meanwhile I've brewed up some changes to my last list, this time taking it in a practically creatureless direction...
2 Botanical Sanctum
3 Canopy Vista
1 Forest
3 Fortified Village
3 Island
2 Lumbering Falls
3 Plains
3 Port Town
3 Prairie Stream
//Artifacts
2 Heart of Kiran
2 Magnifying Glass
//Enchantments
3 Authority of the Consuls
3 Oath of Gideon
3 Stasis Snare
4 Anticipate
1 Blessed Alliance
//Sorceries
3 Baral's Expertise
2 Descend upon the Sinful
//Planeswalkers
1 Ajani Unyielding
2 Dovin Baan
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
3 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
//Creatures
2 Archangel Avacyn
3 Appetite for the Unnatural
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Fumigate
1 Natural State
4 Spell Queller
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
I can't say that this is better than anything else we've come up with, but it seems interesting. Magnifying Glass is probably the jankiest inclusion here, but with only 23 lands the pair of glasses adds ramp as well as some late game draw power.
Thoughts?
I agree with Snare being the better option. As far as a replacement for Disallow goes, I'm actually goldfishing a playset of Anticipate right now instead of counters. Looking back through the various builds in the thread, it seems that aside from Tamiyo's +1 and Nissa's ultimate, we've neglected card draw -- which, for a control-esque deck like this seems to be leaning towards, could a real problem.
While I agree with the curve being generally high, I'm still not 100% convinced on little Nissa, especially as she is competing for a pretty crowded 3cc slot, but I'll stick her back in (moving Dovin to the board) and tinker some more. Trying to work Oath of Nissa back into my list to help with the fixing. Maybe an updated list later tonight; if not, sometime tomorrow!
Assuming it's viable, and two walkers take one for the team (my first thoughts would be a pick 2 from Kiora, a Dovin or a Nissa) along with the Unsubs, that frees up 6 slots. In an unknown meta I'm always inclined to balance my answers, so I would lean to running a 3/3 split of Disallow and Stasis Snare.
I think Unsubstantiate could still have a home in the board, as it provides an additional answer to a resolved Gideon as well as letting us abuse timing tricks with Spell Queller. I don't like giving out SB advice in general, as that should really be local meta dependent, so grain of salt and all that. Still I think some SB slots are probably fairly universal, those being an additional sweeper(s), extra stall vs aggro, and some way to interact with artifacts and enchantments.
With regard to Oath of Ajani and Always watching, I don't think this particular brew is meant for those cards. Only 9 creatures main (tokens don't count for Watching) doesn't give those enough value in my opinion. Depending on the SB they could make it into a transformer-like build there? The low creature count is less of a concern re: Tamiyo's +1, as putting it on the opponent's creatures guarantees either a card or a pseudo-fog, and we're prolly happy either way.
I'm hoping to get in some testing in the next few days once I can get my hands on cards, and then I'll have some real data to back up any further changes.
(Edit because brain)
The thought occurred that we could mitigate the double-mana load a bit by dropping all 3 little Nissas. Without Heart & without the proliferator dudes she perhaps has less value than the other walkers?
3 Botanical Sanctum
3 Canopy Vista
2 Forest
3 Fortified Village
3 Island
2 Lumbering Falls
3 Plains
2 Port Town
3 Prairie Stream
//12 Walkers
2 Dovin Baan
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 Kiora, Master of the Depths
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
3 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
//6 Enchantment
3 Authority of the Consuls
3 Oath of Gideon
4 Unsubstantiate
3 Baral's Expertise
2 Descend upon the Sinful
//9 Creatures
2 Archangel Avacyn
4 Spell Queller
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Blessed Alliance
4 Filigree Familiar
1 Fumigate
2 Natural State
1 Quarantine Field
//Maybeboard
1 Altered Ego
1 Appetite for the Unnatural
1 Cloudblazer
1 Declaration in Stone
1 Imprisoned in the Moon
1 Maulfist Revolutionary
1 Oath of Jace
1 Oath of Nissa
1 Permeating Mass
1 Skyship Plunderer
4 Serum Visions
4 Condemn
4 Rune Snag
4 Mana Leak
4 Wall of Omens
3 Spellskite
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Shared Fate
2 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Terminus
Sideboard varies wildly but usually contains:
2-3 Pithing Needle
0-1 Terminus
1-2 Anger of the Gods
Some number of situational counters
Sometimes 4 beaters to bring in when I really don't want to Fate
Keranos is my colours' version of Ashiok, Nightmare Keeper but I've found it to be much more resilient. Slower too, but I'm not built to windmill a T5 Fate so it's fine for that. I've also randomly won games with him (and Fate sitting my hand) more than a few times. I see a lot of aggro decks, which is why Wall/Skite are main. Condemn is ridiculously good for me because of that as well. The counters are the weak link, as with only 8 main it frequently happens that I'm a turn late in drawing one. Considering ditching them completely for more removal or shenanigans like Bronze Bombshell as yet another non-Fate wincon.
4 Farseek
4 Zhur-Taa Druid
4 Plasm Capture
Card Draw (7)
4 Think Twice
3 Urban Evolution
Combo (9)
3 Deadeye Navigator
3 Zealous Conscripts
3 Gilded Lotus
Other (9)
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Ral Zarek
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Devil's Play
4 Breeding Pool
4 Steam Vents
3 Stomping Ground
4 Hinterland Harbor
3 Rootbound Crag
3 Sulfur Falls
1 Alchemist's Refuge
1 Kessig Wolf-run
1 Pillar of Flame
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Aetherling
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Aetherize
1 Magmaquake
1 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Thundermaw
1 Staff of Nin
1 Progenitor Mimic
1 Niv-Mizzet
After a little virtual goldfishing, I have questions about a few of the cards, which is why I'm coming here...
Zhur-taa Druid: should these be Scorned Villager? Do I need all 4 slots?
Combo pieces: currently have 3 each; should any be 4, given the card draw?
Planeswalkers: are Jace AoT and Ral the right options here? And in the right quantities?
Think Twice: these are competing in the 2 slot. Should I replace with a 3-mana option like Divination or Forbidden Alchemy? Or go for a cheap red looting effect instead?
Urban Evolution: I'm pretty sure this has a place, just not sure about the numbers.
Land: is 23 enough given the ramp potential?
Removal: or lack thereof. I know what I should try to fit in, just not sure where.
The "sideboard" is just a list of cards up for consideration (either main or side). I'm sure I have overlooked some obvious cards... don't be afraid tell me what they are!
Thoughts, comments and critiques welcomed and appreciated!
I've moved the Rift+Return package to the board, along with Far // Away, since my meta tends to feature swarm aggro. I run a few "swing slots" that change depending on what I see before the event: Thespian's Stage is interchangeable with Ghost Quarter (mainly if I see Wolf-Run decks floating around), and Izzet Charm sometimes steps aside for Dreadbore.
And don't laugh (too hard) at Ludevic's Test Subject - it's won a somewhat disturbing number of games in testing.
3 Watery Grave
3 Blood Crypt
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Drowned Catacombs
3 Dragonskull Summit
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Stensia Bloodhall
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Ludevic's Test Subject
4 Nivix Cyclops
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Aetherling
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Think Twice
4 Searing Spear
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Izzet Charm
2 Sever the Bloodline
2 Turn // Burn
3 Magmaquake
2 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Rakdos Charm
3 Izzet Staticaster
1 Crypt Incursion
2 Dissipate
3 Far // Away
1 Psychic Spiral
2 Rakdos' Return
Skip your draw step.
Whenever a creature you control attacks, put a 1/1 black Demon creature token with flying onto the battlefield tapped and attacking.
At the beginning of your end step, you lose 1 life for each Demon you control and draw that many cards.
Just sign here and you'll receive our free* Ever-Growing Army of Demons starter kit (*demon food not included).
-----
Yes, it's a life-for-cards effect, but it's more complex than just a card advantage engine.
- The creature-centric nature of this card plays well with the current design philosophy of "turn guys sideways to win" (not stating that is good or bad...)
- It fits well with black's suicidal tendencies and "whatever it takes" attitude
- It requires forethought and some amount of decision making ability to manage once it's in play
- It's a build-around-me card instead of a random auto-include, which in my mind at least should encourage creative deck building
On the surface I can see a passing similarity to Symbiotic Deployment + Goblin Assault (not to mention pinching what has been purely a white mechanic), but the feel of this card is quite undeniably black. It's different enough from what currently exists and other examples I've seen to warrant consideration.
Thoughts?
Not a bad idea at all. I'm thinking Naya Charm could be good in those 2 free slots. My meta is all over the place so I'm not sure if maindeck colour-specific removal is the best call. I had a look at that Emeria control deck in your sig and I'm now trying to make room for one or two Obelisk of Alara, which I had totally forgotten about. I think the Magma Sprays may get the axe for it.
I've been running Naya LD over the last couple weeks. It needs work, but maybe some good ideas can come out of this thread? The incarnation I'm intending to take next FNM looks like this (cards/numbers in brackets are alternate build options; it seemed easier than posting 2 lists for a couple minor differences (I don't know why the tags aren't working on those cards)):
4 Plains (5)
3 Forest
3 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats (Scalding Tarn)
1 Verdant Catacombs (Misty Rainforest)
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Rampant Growth
4 Trace of Abundance
4 Acidic Slime
3 Magma Phoenix
3 World Queller
4 Burst Lightning
3 Day of Judgment
3 Banefire
3 Ajani Vengeant
4 Captured Sunlight
3 Celestial Purge
2 Magma Spray
1 Ajani Vengeant (Banefire)
1 Swamp (Island)
4 Deathmark (Rhox War Monk)
What's not there:
I had previously run Jungle Shrines, but the ETB tapped slowed me down too many times.
Scepter of Dominance used to be there in place of the Banefires. I found them to be too slow and colour-intensive (even with the Shrines and mana-fixing). They may make it back in at some point.
Enlisted Wurm was great when it cascaded into LD or a Phoenix, but too often it would just hit Growth/Trace and :facepalm:. It also made the deck too top-heavy, and I needed more spots for removal... so out he came. Again, may be back later.
The worst match-ups in the last 2 weeks were RDW and WW. Hopefully with the extra removal in this build that will change, but I think there is still room for improvement.
Thoughts?