Gonna try slotting in some number of Adventurous Impulse. On the face of it, I think it's a solid turn 1 play (barring etb tapped of course) and isn't dead later on either. Dunno how much I'll be playing in the next week because life happens, but I'll report results as/when I have them.
Going forward would you make any changes? Aside from CarnyT are there any other “all star” cards that you’d promote?
Re: Arch of Orazca, I have found it immensely valuable. It drew me out of a couple massive land gluts against one of the red decks, and is an outstanding source of CA for the control matches. I don’t know that the 23 land/4 elf lists could get away with it, but for me on 25 it’s easy to find room for it.
3-0-1 at FNM tonight with mostly the list I had from earlier in the week. Sideboard is kinda wonky because some requested cards weren't brought and I had to make do what was on-hand.
Yeah, there are a couple cards missing from the board - I had the full 15 but don't remember what the last 2 were (so clearly I didn't use them!)
Beat up on the bye and a pair of mono red decks (1 running Flame of Keld, the other on burn + Rekindling Phoenix, and apparently Experimental Frenzy but I only saw those post-match). Draw was vs Esper control, and this was where I really missed the Duresses that I'd planned on having in the board.
Ripjaws were stupid good against the red decks (those and Wx are the reason I had them in my original list, and was actually glad that I "had" to run them tonight). Both matches were kinda uneventful. The FoK guy bricked hard in game 1 despite back to back FoKs, drawing only a Shock when I was at 5 (which he had to use on one of my dudes), and I valued him out in game 2 with a curve of Moment of Craving > dude > Contempt > Doomy > Carnage Tyrant. The other guy ran into mana issues in both games, and I was never really threatened. I will say that the maindeck Deathgorge was a beating. I cast it 4 times during the first game, eating a couple of Phoenixes along the way and keeping me at a very healthy life total.
The Esper match was really well played, aside from game 1, which was just silly: I cast exactly two spells: AssTrophy on T3 on a Search, and Carny T on T6 which swung 3 times for the win. He took the second game with all the removal and eventually got there with Chromium. Game 3 ended in a draw and it honestly was a toss up as to who could have won it - when it ended he had Teferi on board at low loyalty and a reasonable handful of cards, while I played Doom Whisperer on my final turn with Carnage Tyrant in hand (because whatever).
Takeaways really are that the sideboard hand disruption is definitely necessary for the control matches, and despite me taking it out earlier in the week I think the Ripjaws stay in. I didn't miss the Deadeye Trackers that I'd wanted as much as I thought, though there is still a case for them I think. More to brew of course but I'm feeling good about where my pile is going!
Hey, thanks for taking the time to comment. Really appreciate it.
Find // Finality is a card I've not actually evaluated since plugging them into the deck. I'll put them on my watchlist as I do more testing. You're right, I do tend to use the front half much more often, and don't have a lot of early drops to really make the back half shine. Hmmm...
A single Duress is interesting. My first iteration of this list featured 3 Kitesail Freebooters main as they filled a similar role, as my past experience with Rock lists (back in the days of the O.G. Rock) was that mainddeck discard was an essential tool. Again, hmmm...
As far as the 1-ofs goes, yeah it's sketchy without reliable tutoring (I miss my Vampiric Tutors!). More testing is needed to tell me if I'm on the right track here or just got lucky with some of my draws. It almost feels like the graveyard-based Stitcher's Supplier etc. lists are the ones that have the better tutoring options, just in a slightly different form. I'm not convinced enough to switch my focus (yet), but I'll noodle around with it.
On the Elves plan... I find it difficult to justify slots for a card that really only has an impact on T1/2, and is a progressively worse topdeck as the game goes on. I'd rather run cards that have value in more stages of the game. Willing to admit I'm wrong and/or undervaluing their potential, but my first list ran them and they just felt so bad.
I definitely think I need to reevaluate my curve. Trying not to go overboard in light of this weekend's PT Top 8 (that's a ton and a half of weenies).
Those are interesting lists. I'm surprised by zero Knight of Malice in that Abzan list. But I could definitely see some good things coming from knights. That Bant list seems more accurately described as G(uw), considering the only blue cards are Climb and some sideboard Negates. I'd rather Sultai my Climb for max Constrictor value but that's just me.
As far as my list goes, you're absolutely correct about Groves being better for the duals. I'll give them a shot and run checks instead of fastlands where I can. The early game speed is of most concern to me so I'll be keeping a close eye on how that plays out with an altered mana base.
I also discovered that Ajani really wasn't necessary. I've tended to win games on the back of Constrictor synergy alone. Can't cut the white completely tho; Shalai is just too good, and I like having access to white answers in the board. I ran it last Friday to a 3-1 finish, with a loss to Mardu and wins against 2 R/b and Jeskai Turns. Journey to Eternity is an outstanding singleton, especially against red once you stabilize, and I encourage others to give it a shot.
There's some good ideas in that list. I looked at a few of them in my earlier Bant builds, and we have discussed a couple others as well.
(As an aside, I'm a huge fan of "Sagageddon" and am totally stealing it.)
At this point it seems like we are still trying to figure out what the best shell is for this type of deck. So far we've got lists for Bant, Abzan, BW and 4C, plus talk of both Naya and Sultai. Of all the options and directions to take it, I think moving into midrange/control territory seems like the best way to go, and the 4C option is almost certainly the worst. Within that general "speed", we can look at ramping (likely Bant), going reactive/counter heavy (which pushes us most naturally into Bant or Esper depending on use of The Mending of Dominaria or not), and proactive/discard approach (prolly Abzan). The Naya monsters idea that Mongo suggested earlier also sounds interesting, but needs a list to start from.
Gonna do some more theorycrafting and see if I can put together some more optimized versions of some of these.
When I was testing I played a bunch of games against Esper spells (all the removal, usually winning via Torment of Hailfire doubled by Primal Wellspring). Bestiary on turn 3 got me so many positive scrys, plus the extra draws from casting creatures, my hand never went below 5 cards and I always had gas.
I bring it in against any blue-based control - spells, Approach, UB. After boarding they tend to load up on creature removal, meaning once Bestiary lands they have next to no way to remove it (Cast Out / Ixalan's Binding are pretty much it, and those tend to go on dudes). I'm seriously considering finding room for 1 main because of much it improves the quality of every draw.
I'm partial to Rhonas the Indomitable as a one-of. Amazing for breaking board stalls, and aside from Ballista on 1, every creature in the deck enables it either natively or with just one Rhonas activation.
Round 1 vs RG Pummeler (2-1). Game 1 I mull to 6. He started fast with Servant into Voltaic Brawler. Got bashed to 12 thanks to Invigorated Rampage. I stabilized by trading away a Hydra and Refiner for his two guys, then ripped & stuck a Longtusk Cub while he drew lands. Sided in 2 Appetite and Negate, removing three random cards (no notes, sorry!). Game 2 I mull to 5, draw no action, and die to Electrostatic Pummeler on turn 4. Whatcha gon' do? No board changes. Game 3 I got off to a quick start and he wasn't able to find his bombs in time. He told me after the match that he'd sided out Pummelers in favour of Glorybringers. He also brought in a truckload of burn.
Round 2 vs UB Scarab God (2-1). Game 1 I started with a pair of Constrictors into Hydra, but he stalled me out on the ground with a wall of Gifted Aetherborns, Hostage Taker on a Cub, and an active The Scarab God. I couldn't profitably attack or block and got chipped down by Aetherborn swings. Sideboard out all 4 Constrictors, bringing in 2 Deathgorge, Negate and Nissa (I wasn't sure what should come out but snakes seemed least useful). Game 2 I pushed his second turn Aetherborn and dropped Nissa on turn 3. A few turns later (after my Hydras got Lost Legacy'd and Doomfalls ate some dudes) Nissa made some angry lands, and with a couple dorks swing for 15. It's over next turn. Same board going into game 3. Again with LL taking out my Hydras, but it didn't matter as I got there with a couple of Refiners and Rhonas. He saw no basically action at all in game 3 aside from Legacy.
Round 3 vs B/r aggro (2-0). His Bomat Courier matched up poorly with my larger creatures. Even Hazoret was walled thanks to Constrictor and Hydra, and eventually I got Rhonas onboard and trampled over. Sided out 3 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner in favour of Cartouche and 2 Deathgorge (he had Dread Wanderer + Yahenni, Undying Partisan shenanigans). I prolly could/should have brought in the 2 Appetites as he had played Aethersphere Harvester game 1, but opted to just rely on large dudes to smash through if it came down. Game 2 started fast for him with Night Market Lookouts coming down turns 1 and 2, followed by Harvester turn 3. I stabilized with Rogue Refiner wearing Cartouche of Ambition, plus a couple of Blossoming Defense to just smash his stuff. A few turns later Rhonas was onboard as well and that was it.
So sadly, no Temur or RR matchups this week (unlike 3 energy matches last week), but still valuable experience. This list is really weak to Scarab God, with only the two Contempts and a Coup to deal with it. Board stalls, especially of the deathtouch-y variety, are also bad. My pet project Nimble Obstructionists didn't show up as I would have liked (tho I did draw one the turn after I traded with a Scarab God - he never attacked with him again). Those cards might end up becoming more removal. Aside from that I don't have any beefs with the main deck. Sideboard didn't see full use as I never got to play against control or RR, but the cards I did bring in were excellent. I don't think I have any changes there, assuming I up main deck removal.
1
1
Going forward would you make any changes? Aside from CarnyT are there any other “all star” cards that you’d promote?
Re: Arch of Orazca, I have found it immensely valuable. It drew me out of a couple massive land gluts against one of the red decks, and is an outstanding source of CA for the control matches. I don’t know that the 23 land/4 elf lists could get away with it, but for me on 25 it’s easy to find room for it.
1
9 Forest
1 Golgari Guildgate
2 Memorial to Folly
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Swamp
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Kraul Harpooner
4 Seekers' Squire
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Cast Down
4 Jadelight Ranger
2 Midnight Reaper
1 Journey to Eternity
1 Golgari Findbroker
3 Ravenous Chupacabra
3 Vraska's Contempt
1 Doom Whisperer
1 The Eldest Reborn
2 Vivien Reid
2 Carnage Tyrant
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
1 Cast Down
1 Doom Whisperer
1 Fungal Infection
2 Golden Demise
3 Moment of Craving
1 Plaguecrafter
2 Ripjaw Raptor
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
Beat up on the bye and a pair of mono red decks (1 running Flame of Keld, the other on burn + Rekindling Phoenix, and apparently Experimental Frenzy but I only saw those post-match). Draw was vs Esper control, and this was where I really missed the Duresses that I'd planned on having in the board.
Ripjaws were stupid good against the red decks (those and Wx are the reason I had them in my original list, and was actually glad that I "had" to run them tonight). Both matches were kinda uneventful. The FoK guy bricked hard in game 1 despite back to back FoKs, drawing only a Shock when I was at 5 (which he had to use on one of my dudes), and I valued him out in game 2 with a curve of Moment of Craving > dude > Contempt > Doomy > Carnage Tyrant. The other guy ran into mana issues in both games, and I was never really threatened. I will say that the maindeck Deathgorge was a beating. I cast it 4 times during the first game, eating a couple of Phoenixes along the way and keeping me at a very healthy life total.
The Esper match was really well played, aside from game 1, which was just silly: I cast exactly two spells: AssTrophy on T3 on a Search, and Carny T on T6 which swung 3 times for the win. He took the second game with all the removal and eventually got there with Chromium. Game 3 ended in a draw and it honestly was a toss up as to who could have won it - when it ended he had Teferi on board at low loyalty and a reasonable handful of cards, while I played Doom Whisperer on my final turn with Carnage Tyrant in hand (because whatever).
Takeaways really are that the sideboard hand disruption is definitely necessary for the control matches, and despite me taking it out earlier in the week I think the Ripjaws stay in. I didn't miss the Deadeye Trackers that I'd wanted as much as I thought, though there is still a case for them I think. More to brew of course but I'm feeling good about where my pile is going!
1
Find // Finality is a card I've not actually evaluated since plugging them into the deck. I'll put them on my watchlist as I do more testing. You're right, I do tend to use the front half much more often, and don't have a lot of early drops to really make the back half shine. Hmmm...
A single Duress is interesting. My first iteration of this list featured 3 Kitesail Freebooters main as they filled a similar role, as my past experience with Rock lists (back in the days of the O.G. Rock) was that mainddeck discard was an essential tool. Again, hmmm...
As far as the 1-ofs goes, yeah it's sketchy without reliable tutoring (I miss my Vampiric Tutors!). More testing is needed to tell me if I'm on the right track here or just got lucky with some of my draws. It almost feels like the graveyard-based Stitcher's Supplier etc. lists are the ones that have the better tutoring options, just in a slightly different form. I'm not convinced enough to switch my focus (yet), but I'll noodle around with it.
On the Elves plan... I find it difficult to justify slots for a card that really only has an impact on T1/2, and is a progressively worse topdeck as the game goes on. I'd rather run cards that have value in more stages of the game. Willing to admit I'm wrong and/or undervaluing their potential, but my first list ran them and they just felt so bad.
I definitely think I need to reevaluate my curve. Trying not to go overboard in light of this weekend's PT Top 8 (that's a ton and a half of weenies).
1
As far as my list goes, you're absolutely correct about Groves being better for the duals. I'll give them a shot and run checks instead of fastlands where I can. The early game speed is of most concern to me so I'll be keeping a close eye on how that plays out with an altered mana base.
I also discovered that Ajani really wasn't necessary. I've tended to win games on the back of Constrictor synergy alone. Can't cut the white completely tho; Shalai is just too good, and I like having access to white answers in the board. I ran it last Friday to a 3-1 finish, with a loss to Mardu and wins against 2 R/b and Jeskai Turns. Journey to Eternity is an outstanding singleton, especially against red once you stabilize, and I encourage others to give it a shot.
1
1
(As an aside, I'm a huge fan of "Sagageddon" and am totally stealing it.)
At this point it seems like we are still trying to figure out what the best shell is for this type of deck. So far we've got lists for Bant, Abzan, BW and 4C, plus talk of both Naya and Sultai. Of all the options and directions to take it, I think moving into midrange/control territory seems like the best way to go, and the 4C option is almost certainly the worst. Within that general "speed", we can look at ramping (likely Bant), going reactive/counter heavy (which pushes us most naturally into Bant or Esper depending on use of The Mending of Dominaria or not), and proactive/discard approach (prolly Abzan). The Naya monsters idea that Mongo suggested earlier also sounds interesting, but needs a list to start from.
Gonna do some more theorycrafting and see if I can put together some more optimized versions of some of these.
1
I bring it in against any blue-based control - spells, Approach, UB. After boarding they tend to load up on creature removal, meaning once Bestiary lands they have next to no way to remove it (Cast Out / Ixalan's Binding are pretty much it, and those tend to go on dudes). I'm seriously considering finding room for 1 main because of much it improves the quality of every draw.
1
1
3 Blooming Marsh
4 Botanical Sanctum
1 Fetid Pools
4 Forest
1 Island
4 Swamp
3 Blossoming Defense
4 Fatal Push
1 Negate
2 Vraska's Contempt
1 Confiscation Coup
4 Bristling Hydra
3 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
4 Longtusk Cub
2 Nimble Obstructionist
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
4 Rogue Refiner
2 Verdurous Gearhulk
4 Winding Constrictor
2 Appetite for the Unnatural
1 Cartouche of Ambition
2 Deathgorge Scavenger
3 Duress
2 Lifecrafter's Bestiary
1 Negate
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
3 Walking Ballista
Round 1 vs RG Pummeler (2-1). Game 1 I mull to 6. He started fast with Servant into Voltaic Brawler. Got bashed to 12 thanks to Invigorated Rampage. I stabilized by trading away a Hydra and Refiner for his two guys, then ripped & stuck a Longtusk Cub while he drew lands. Sided in 2 Appetite and Negate, removing three random cards (no notes, sorry!). Game 2 I mull to 5, draw no action, and die to Electrostatic Pummeler on turn 4. Whatcha gon' do? No board changes. Game 3 I got off to a quick start and he wasn't able to find his bombs in time. He told me after the match that he'd sided out Pummelers in favour of Glorybringers. He also brought in a truckload of burn.
Round 2 vs UB Scarab God (2-1). Game 1 I started with a pair of Constrictors into Hydra, but he stalled me out on the ground with a wall of Gifted Aetherborns, Hostage Taker on a Cub, and an active The Scarab God. I couldn't profitably attack or block and got chipped down by Aetherborn swings. Sideboard out all 4 Constrictors, bringing in 2 Deathgorge, Negate and Nissa (I wasn't sure what should come out but snakes seemed least useful). Game 2 I pushed his second turn Aetherborn and dropped Nissa on turn 3. A few turns later (after my Hydras got Lost Legacy'd and Doomfalls ate some dudes) Nissa made some angry lands, and with a couple dorks swing for 15. It's over next turn. Same board going into game 3. Again with LL taking out my Hydras, but it didn't matter as I got there with a couple of Refiners and Rhonas. He saw no basically action at all in game 3 aside from Legacy.
Round 3 vs B/r aggro (2-0). His Bomat Courier matched up poorly with my larger creatures. Even Hazoret was walled thanks to Constrictor and Hydra, and eventually I got Rhonas onboard and trampled over. Sided out 3 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner in favour of Cartouche and 2 Deathgorge (he had Dread Wanderer + Yahenni, Undying Partisan shenanigans). I prolly could/should have brought in the 2 Appetites as he had played Aethersphere Harvester game 1, but opted to just rely on large dudes to smash through if it came down. Game 2 started fast for him with Night Market Lookouts coming down turns 1 and 2, followed by Harvester turn 3. I stabilized with Rogue Refiner wearing Cartouche of Ambition, plus a couple of Blossoming Defense to just smash his stuff. A few turns later Rhonas was onboard as well and that was it.
So sadly, no Temur or RR matchups this week (unlike 3 energy matches last week), but still valuable experience. This list is really weak to Scarab God, with only the two Contempts and a Coup to deal with it. Board stalls, especially of the deathtouch-y variety, are also bad. My pet project Nimble Obstructionists didn't show up as I would have liked (tho I did draw one the turn after I traded with a Scarab God - he never attacked with him again). Those cards might end up becoming more removal. Aside from that I don't have any beefs with the main deck. Sideboard didn't see full use as I never got to play against control or RR, but the cards I did bring in were excellent. I don't think I have any changes there, assuming I up main deck removal.
Hope this is helpful!