Wtwlf testing frodo, I'd be mighty tempted to test these two cards together to live the dream of a frodo game win via his 3rd ability
Frodo can live the dream on his own! ...It just takes a bunch of turns and tons of black mana.
It happens just as fast with 3 black mana as with like 15 black mana though? Barring type changing effects I guess but can9t think of many that are cubable.
Wish this was “only during your turn” for wave tricks. I really like being 2 instead of 3 to blow something up but overall I csn’t see this over commando or seal which squeezes it out expect for large or weak cubes
That’s not quite correct. If Nissa is no longer on the battlefield when the ability resolves, then it will indeed use LKI as described in 608.2h. That!s why if she eats, say, a Hero’s Downfall, you still get a 4/4.
But if she gets burned to death by stoke the flames, the last known info is 0 counters so it creates a 0/0. Same for being killed by say a Hexmage is response.
Gatherer ruling says otherwise:
If Nissa is no longer on the battlefield at the time her first ability resolves, use the number of loyalty counters she had when she last existed on the battlefield to determine the value of X.
Definition of Last Known Information per the Comprehensive Rules:
Information about an object that’s no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in, or information about a player
who’s no longer in the game. This information captures that object’s last existence in that zone or that
player’s last existence in the game. See rules 113.7a, 608.2b, 608.2h, and 800.4h.
In a 3 loyalty vs Lightning Bolt scenario, last known information would be considered 3 because that was that's how much loyalty Nissa had the last time somebody was able to perform a game action before state-based effects kicked in and move Nissa to the graveyard. Same principal applies to Hangarback Walker and -1/-1 counters:
If enough -1/-1 counters are put on Hangarback Walker at the same time to make its toughness 0 or less, the number of +1/+1 counters on it before it got any -1/-1 counters will be used to determine how many Thopter tokens you get. For example, if there are three +1/+1 counters on Hangarback Walker and it gets four -1/-1 counters, you'll get three Thopter tokens. That's because Hangarback Walker's triggered ability checks the creature's existence just before it leaves the battlefield, and it still has all those counters on it at that point.
Again, this is not correct. You are misinterpreting how many counters the last known information is. When PW are killed by damage, the exact process is:
Damage causes loss of counters
The PW goes to 0 counters
PW dies to state based effects for having 0 counters
The LKI is 0!
This is the same reason that you get 0 thopter from a Hangback that gets Hexmaged to death. I think you are getting confused by the hangarback -1/-1 counter interaction — in that case the creature is killed by SBE’s *before* the +1/+1 counters are removed because it has 0 toughness or less. Or in the case of say a 5/5 Walker that takes 2 damage and then gets skinrendered, the process is:
Game sees a net 2/2 with 2 damage on it
SBEs send it to the GY
LKI sees that before it was sent to the GY, it had 5 counters
You get 5 thopters
Nissa does not die as a 4/4 with 4 damage on it however. There is no concept of damage being marked on PW or PW dying from having more damage marked than their loyalty at all. The damage is replaced by loss of counters and the state of the object before being sent to the GY (which is what LKI looks at) is having 0 counters.
Have you all seen the rulings for this card? My understanding is the X/X could be shrunk if the Nissa is Bolted in response to the ability being put on the stack BUT it will never be a 0/0 if the Nissa is killed with the ability on the stack. Is that the correct interpretation of the rulings on this card?
Have you all seen the rulings for this card? My understanding is the X/X could be shrunk if the Nissa is Bolted in response to the ability being put on the stack BUT it will never be a 0/0 if the Nissa is killed with the ability on the stack. Is that the correct interpretation of the rulings on this card?
Yes, this is the ruling per the comprehensive rules. Basically it looks at what Nissa had the last time it existed when somebody held priority and was able to do something. That's why the creature won't ETB as a 0/0 if you burn the Nissa down to 0 in response.
608.2h If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself, the effect uses the current information of that object if it’s in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it’s no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object’s last known information. See rule 113.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it’s the object as it exists—or as it most recently existed—that does it, not the ability.
That’s not quite correct. If Nissa is no longer on the battlefield when the ability resolves, then it will indeed use LKI as described in 608.2h. That!s why if she eats, say, a Hero’s Downfall, you still get a 4/4.
But if she gets burned to death by stoke the flames, the last known info is 0 counters so it creates a 0/0. Same for being killed by say a Hexmage is response.
If you like a playtest card mechanically but dislike it being a sticker it’s pretty easy to whip up some AI art and print it out with MPC.
That's certainly true, but to my brain when something has never actually been printed as a real magic card (even if it's not legal in any format) it just feels like a custom card that a magic designer happened to make. If your cube runs custom cards, I'd absolutely run this. But like, is this more of a real magic card than Alchemy cards are? I'd say no.
I also think they’re about as “real “ as Alchemy cards — which is to say, very real magic cards and a clear delineation from actual customs 😆
If you like a playtest card mechanically but dislike it being a sticker it’s pretty easy to whip up some AI art and print it out with MPC.
Personally I would stay away from anything where the rules are unclear (this passes) or it obviously wouldn’t make it through a normal developmental check (this fails).
Reclamation is bonko, 3-for-1 is so much more than 1-for-1 it’s unreal. If you’re interest in this card I think the only reason not to reclamation is because it would be too strong for your environment. I can also imagine small powermax that maybe can’t fit in reclamation but then this isn’t even going to be close despite the various minor upsides.
If you’ve gotta cube where you’re going to curve scales into this into aspirant or whatever, that’s kind of spiffy. But if they just printed a 3/3 menace for 1B that might make it and this could be sorta close
I don't think the abilities stack, so you can't get "Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, put that many +1/+1 counters on it" 3x times on one creature, just like it can't get triple trample. So if you target a 1/1 with all 3 backup triggers, it becomes a 4/4 with trample and if it hits (unblocked) it would become an 8/8.
The backup abilities trigger separately and the combat triggers are granted separately. If multiple target the same creature it will get multiple versions of the trigger so the 1/1 indeed turns into a 16/16.
Notably this means that a 1/1 double strike will connect for 20 and become a 64/64, but it still costs like 1 too much for high power cubes unless they’re pretty big.
It will also have “trample, trample, trample” fwiw it’s just that that doesn’t do anything interesting.
To be fair, it’s actually card advantage unlike curtains. I agree this is going to play surprisingly well in a lot of environments just because U can really use ways to deploy some defensive board presence cheaply without being embarrassing on t8. Not making powermaxed 540 or anything
Titan is so much more than a turn slower than this. It’s like 2.5 turns slower. Huge upgrade not even close — The game is often decided while Titan languishes in hand while this can come down and quite easily kill a PW+return a 4 drop
If you have 6 drops in your deck you’ll whiff somewhat often if you “hit” on 8. Even with a lower curve you’ve probably gotta stop at 10-11ish. So you aren’t really gaining much mana here, and if you cast say 5 cards with avg cmc 2.2 not that many cards either.
Like, it’s not a weak effect, but for 8 mana… I’d rather cast aminatou’s augury or something
Being able to get 4+ drops and granting evasion+permanent buff make this really bonkers I think. Even the 4/5 mode is better than Titan by virtue of evasion+being cheaper. Thinking this makes a clear top 3 for W 5s with solitude and avacyn (ironically I might give 4th to another backup 1 flying rare…)
It happens just as fast with 3 black mana as with like 15 black mana though? Barring type changing effects I guess but can9t think of many that are cubable.
Again, this is not correct. You are misinterpreting how many counters the last known information is. When PW are killed by damage, the exact process is:
Damage causes loss of counters
The PW goes to 0 counters
PW dies to state based effects for having 0 counters
The LKI is 0!
This is the same reason that you get 0 thopter from a Hangback that gets Hexmaged to death. I think you are getting confused by the hangarback -1/-1 counter interaction — in that case the creature is killed by SBE’s *before* the +1/+1 counters are removed because it has 0 toughness or less. Or in the case of say a 5/5 Walker that takes 2 damage and then gets skinrendered, the process is:
Game sees a net 2/2 with 2 damage on it
SBEs send it to the GY
LKI sees that before it was sent to the GY, it had 5 counters
You get 5 thopters
Nissa does not die as a 4/4 with 4 damage on it however. There is no concept of damage being marked on PW or PW dying from having more damage marked than their loyalty at all. The damage is replaced by loss of counters and the state of the object before being sent to the GY (which is what LKI looks at) is having 0 counters.
That’s not quite correct. If Nissa is no longer on the battlefield when the ability resolves, then it will indeed use LKI as described in 608.2h. That!s why if she eats, say, a Hero’s Downfall, you still get a 4/4.
But if she gets burned to death by stoke the flames, the last known info is 0 counters so it creates a 0/0. Same for being killed by say a Hexmage is response.
I also think they’re about as “real “ as Alchemy cards — which is to say, very real magic cards and a clear delineation from actual customs 😆
Personally I would stay away from anything where the rules are unclear (this passes) or it obviously wouldn’t make it through a normal developmental check (this fails).
Those days have long passed but the other two options are pretty relevant
The backup abilities trigger separately and the combat triggers are granted separately. If multiple target the same creature it will get multiple versions of the trigger so the 1/1 indeed turns into a 16/16.
Notably this means that a 1/1 double strike will connect for 20 and become a 64/64, but it still costs like 1 too much for high power cubes unless they’re pretty big.
It will also have “trample, trample, trample” fwiw it’s just that that doesn’t do anything interesting.
Like, it’s not a weak effect, but for 8 mana… I’d rather cast aminatou’s augury or something
Being able to get 4+ drops and granting evasion+permanent buff make this really bonkers I think. Even the 4/5 mode is better than Titan by virtue of evasion+being cheaper. Thinking this makes a clear top 3 for W 5s with solitude and avacyn (ironically I might give 4th to another backup 1 flying rare…)