Some ideas for the OP: talk about some end-game scenarios, or maybe post a few match recaps, discuss the meta you play in, etc.
So far my wins have (in short) come from:
Stage 1: Ramp to a reasonable number of lands, generate tokens, cast Shattergang
Stage 2: Try to attrition the board
Stage 3: Worm Harvest or Garruk Wildspeaker overrun.
I noticed Goblin Welder was on your "cute synergy" list, so I ctrl+F'd all three pages to see if anyone had brought it up. I'm fairly certain that Welder can be a real MVP in this deck given the number of artifacts you play that can be abused with it (mostly by temporarily shutting off your stax pieces to keep them from affecting you, and recurring valuables milled with Life from the Loam) including:
I've also read that you were thinking of adding more ramp:
My short list of suggestions would be: Wayfarer's Bauble Burnished Hart Bloom Tender
Maybe even Gilded Lotus or Thran Dynamo to keep you going after you've destroyed or sacced all lands. I'd prefer Lotus to Black Market, because while Market has more synergy with the deck, I have found that it can be clunky to set up at times.
Some creatures that have helped me win attrition battles: Ophiomancer made the cut in my list, since it works nicely with Seedborn Muse and the bros, and can offer a nice rattlesnake effect if you become the Archenemy. Squee Goblin Nabob is almost an auto-include with Survival of the Fittest in my opinion. Sadistic Hypnotist: Play it and become a believer! I'd cut Mind Slash and try this guy out
Also: Glacial Chasm works well as a pillowfort with this package. With Land Tax, Land Equilibrium, working for us, the "sacrifice a land" isn't as much of a drawback if we don't want to pay the life and just recur it each turn.
Bigbear I think your deck is vastly different than the one in this thread so I encourage you to keep working on it!
You did a decent job on your primer so far, and shouldn't view this thread as competition. I think most would agree that we are all here to help each other, and it's nice to have multiple sources for fresh ideas.
I haven't read the whole eight pages but I think I might be misunderstanding something. How is torpor orb + portcullis a lockdown effect? Doesnt torpor orb stop portcullis's effect from going off?
I don't think we are currently running Portcullis. The reason is that the strategy of Pillow Forting is to make people attack others, while we hide behind our Great Wall of Enchantments! Things like Portcullis and Silent Arbiter just turn creatures off completely, whereas we want to make ourselves an inconvenient target while others get pillaged.
I'm thinking a 4th Fanatic of Mogis would be a fine replacement for Purphuros, as Fanatic is usually a much more significant chunk of damage, and usually a game-sealing topdeck turns 5+
Also, try goldfishing the deck with Magma Jet in shock's place. Perhaps you'll find the land drops are a lot smoother.
I'm also curious about what you would consider keep-able starting hands.
Do keep hands without a two drop?
I'd imagine hands with some burn spells but no two-drop creature into a turn three reckoner or phoenix would be acceptable, but a hand with no two's and no burn seems like a mulligan.
First, let me say congratulations on your great finish with this deck! I really like the synergies that you were able to put together, and the way that the matchups played out. I was considering Mono Red, but was really unhappy about paying only 21 lands, and i dislike the inherent dys-synergy with Burning Tree Emissary in that deck right now with cards like Boros Reckoner, Chandra's Phoenix, et al. I think your deck is a step in the right direction as far as giving this style of deck some reach, and a different plan as a midrange deck.
Second: some questions and considerations:
1. Shock vs. Lightning Strike- Have you tried some number of Magma Jet in this slot? Perhaps the scry would provide the card selection you need to smooth out the land drops, find your Chandras, or the answers you need post board. We compromise on paying 1 extra for 2 damage, but what 3-toughness creatures gave you a big problem? It seems like the format is either 2, 4, or 5+ toughness right now. The major 3-toughness creatures that come to mind are not really bolt-able (Boros Reckoner, Sylvan Caryatid).
2. If you have time, could you talk a bit more about your sideboarding strategy?
How would you side vs. the Archtypes that made top-8 in SCG CLE? (GW, Junk, Mono Green)
How did you side in your control matchups?
Counters: I'd consider Pact of Negation as well as Mana Drain(:D) (Both of which are in my "Edric LOelf" deck right now)
Force of Will would not likely make the cut as our blue count is a bit low to support it.
Permanent Change:
-Tamiyo the Moon Sage +Jace the Mind Sculptor
EDIT: Further Brewing Storm Cauldron!!! I dunno if you're aware of this card but it's a real nightmare to play against if you don't bring the rocks like we do. Might be just what we've always wanted. I realize it doesen't interact well with Armageddon, but imagine the possibilities with this and Ghostly Prison or Nether Void.
We could also shift more toward Planeswalker control, adding the likes of Sorin Markov or Liliana Vess.
Further cuts:
Now that I'm freed of the sword package, I could consider cutting manlands for more basics
Bitterblossom becomes less desirable now that I have no swords to equip to the tokens Liliana of the Veil is probably not as gamebreaking as Liliana Vess's ultimate could be.
All of this said, I hope I'm not stepping too far out of bounds for this Primer, but just want to try a few different things to make sure I'm not wrong
I'll post a final list once I get a chance to test more with Theros cards.
I think Thassa is a -strong- contender and will earn some testing.
Pros for her:
+Essentially a planeswalker with an aggressively low cost
+Indestructible Attacker/Blocker
+Potentially Unblockable Sword Carrier or Dromar (takes some planning with SOFI)
+Enchantment (interacts well with a lot of things in our deck)
+Scry ability which is very good when this deck -occasionally- stalls or needs to dig for a board wipe/tutor.
Con: Not always a creature. (but this can be helpful when we cast terminus, then add devotion like Invoke Prejudice, or Replenish with our card-drawer enchantments, Taimyo (though she may be the slot that gets cut), Tezzeret, and Rule of law can be easily changed to Arcane Laboratory.
Some potential slots:
Tamiyo (I feel like she may be an under performer, I've achieved her ultimate and still lost the game.)
Sun Titan: (can be fragile at times. Comparatively costly.)
Maze of Ith (Indestructible Blocker might be an ample replacement. I seldom tutor for this card as opposed to Swords to Plowshares or a board wipe.)
I'm not sure about Elspeth. I don't see her a better than something like Luminarch Ascension, and Sorin can make 2+ more useful tokens or emblems before this Elspeth can even come online. I see Elspeth Tirel as strictly better for making tokens and protecting our life total. Retribution of the Meek only costs 2W, does not allow for regenneration, yet neither of those cards even come near consideration for our already very tight list
Erebos: Greed on an indestructible body is pretty cool, Not sure that we care about "players can't gain life" because our deck wins by general damage or people quit," which brings me to:
Another Topic Entirely: Sword Package
How has this been performing overall? I'm finding that sword package is hit or miss lately. While it's very very fun to keyrune people to death with sword attached, it isn't the most efficient way to kill a table of four. It can "represent a win" and force people to quit after lockout, but maybe we can brainstorm some alternate ways to kill more efficiently, without the use of infinite combo.
I think Luminarch Ascension has been a great start, as it represents a win to a locked table like no other.
Necropotence is a dirty word these days, but perhaps it can move the plan along a lot faster. We're already playing kinda dirty here, and Necro is the dirtiest
I think you could argue that Cataclysm is a bit more powerful of an effect than Catastrophe, for less mana. In the end I still get to keep a land-kill spell with an added bonus I just categorized the swaps in the above list more on mana curve rather than by function.
I've never been completely oppressed by Blood Moon effects, as I generally tutor for Land Tax as quickly as possible. It's non-threatening, guarantees my land drops and sets me up nice for a recovery if I choose to Armageddon or Cataclysm. Also from my experience in Legacy, I try my best to fetch Basics with my fetches if I can afford to, and avoid getting needlessly greedy with fixing. Finally, as long as we can prioritize securing BWW we can effectively tutor for and cast any of our spot/Mass removal.
Ramp: Burgeoning, Exploration
Spot Removal: Artifact Mutation
Board Wipe: Damnation/Overwhelming Forces/Decree of Pain mainly because of Sigarda, Host of Herons and Tajuru Preserver's prevalence in my meta.
I've also been pondering whether or not this deck would benefit from some instant speed permanents via Vedalken Orrery or winding canyons...
Some ideas for the OP: talk about some end-game scenarios, or maybe post a few match recaps, discuss the meta you play in, etc.
So far my wins have (in short) come from:
Stage 1: Ramp to a reasonable number of lands, generate tokens, cast Shattergang
Stage 2: Try to attrition the board
Stage 3: Worm Harvest or Garruk Wildspeaker overrun.
Winter Orb
Spine of Ish Sah
Myr Retriever
Sword of the Meek
Nihil Spellbomb
Obviously any signet or artifact land can be sacrificed to bring the good stuff back.
Suggestions to abuse with this:
Tangle Wire
Lotus Bloom
Ichor Wellspring
Mycosynth Wellspring
I've also read that you were thinking of adding more ramp:
My short list of suggestions would be:
Wayfarer's Bauble
Burnished Hart
Bloom Tender
Maybe even Gilded Lotus or Thran Dynamo to keep you going after you've destroyed or sacced all lands. I'd prefer Lotus to Black Market, because while Market has more synergy with the deck, I have found that it can be clunky to set up at times.
Some creatures that have helped me win attrition battles:
Ophiomancer made the cut in my list, since it works nicely with Seedborn Muse and the bros, and can offer a nice rattlesnake effect if you become the Archenemy.
Squee Goblin Nabob is almost an auto-include with Survival of the Fittest in my opinion.
Sadistic Hypnotist: Play it and become a believer! I'd cut Mind Slash and try this guy out
Props for cards I hadn't thought of including:
Rancor
Glissa the Traitor
Crucible of Worlds
and
Thespian's Stage + Dark Depths (Legend rule combo)
Also: Glacial Chasm works well as a pillowfort with this package. With Land Tax, Land Equilibrium, working for us, the "sacrifice a land" isn't as much of a drawback if we don't want to pay the life and just recur it each turn.
You did a decent job on your primer so far, and shouldn't view this thread as competition. I think most would agree that we are all here to help each other, and it's nice to have multiple sources for fresh ideas.
I don't think we are currently running Portcullis. The reason is that the strategy of Pillow Forting is to make people attack others, while we hide behind our Great Wall of Enchantments! Things like Portcullis and Silent Arbiter just turn creatures off completely, whereas we want to make ourselves an inconvenient target while others get pillaged.
Meekstone was mentioned a couple posts up... This, and cards like crackdown are not optimal because the fatties get to hit you once, and sometimes if it's a craterhoof behemoth, Marton Stromgald or Hazezon Tamar alpha strike... You're still dead. Ezuri Renegade Leader, Triumph of the Horde, Kamahl Fist of Krosa? Well you get the point... dead These decks also usually play Seedborn Muse or Prophet of Kruphix. We're almost better off with a Wrath effect.
If anyone was looking for budget options, I suggest in addition to Propaganda and Ghostly Prison, cards like Island Sanctuary and/or Teferi's Moat.
Also, try goldfishing the deck with Magma Jet in shock's place. Perhaps you'll find the land drops are a lot smoother.
I'm also curious about what you would consider keep-able starting hands.
Do keep hands without a two drop?
I'd imagine hands with some burn spells but no two-drop creature into a turn three reckoner or phoenix would be acceptable, but a hand with no two's and no burn seems like a mulligan.
First, let me say congratulations on your great finish with this deck! I really like the synergies that you were able to put together, and the way that the matchups played out. I was considering Mono Red, but was really unhappy about paying only 21 lands, and i dislike the inherent dys-synergy with Burning Tree Emissary in that deck right now with cards like Boros Reckoner, Chandra's Phoenix, et al. I think your deck is a step in the right direction as far as giving this style of deck some reach, and a different plan as a midrange deck.
Second: some questions and considerations:
1. Shock vs. Lightning Strike- Have you tried some number of Magma Jet in this slot? Perhaps the scry would provide the card selection you need to smooth out the land drops, find your Chandras, or the answers you need post board. We compromise on paying 1 extra for 2 damage, but what 3-toughness creatures gave you a big problem? It seems like the format is either 2, 4, or 5+ toughness right now. The major 3-toughness creatures that come to mind are not really bolt-able (Boros Reckoner, Sylvan Caryatid).
2. If you have time, could you talk a bit more about your sideboarding strategy?
How would you side vs. the Archtypes that made top-8 in SCG CLE? (GW, Junk, Mono Green)
How did you side in your control matchups?
Thanks!
-Dia
-Sword of Fire and Ice
-Sword of War and Peace
-Sword of Feast and Famine
+Counterspell
+Muddle the Mixture
+Arcane Denial
Counters: I'd consider Pact of Negation as well as Mana Drain(:D) (Both of which are in my "Edric LOelf" deck right now)
Force of Will would not likely make the cut as our blue count is a bit low to support it.
Permanent Change:
-Tamiyo the Moon Sage +Jace the Mind Sculptor
Im considering:
-Sculpting Steel
+Necropotence
OR
+Capsize
OR
+Thassa God of the Sea
Any of these three cards I'd rather have than Sculpting Steel I think. Tell me an epic Sculpting Steel story and I may change my mind
EDIT: Further Brewing
Storm Cauldron!!! I dunno if you're aware of this card but it's a real nightmare to play against if you don't bring the rocks like we do. Might be just what we've always wanted. I realize it doesen't interact well with Armageddon, but imagine the possibilities with this and Ghostly Prison or Nether Void.
We could also shift more toward Planeswalker control, adding the likes of Sorin Markov or Liliana Vess.
Further cuts:
Now that I'm freed of the sword package, I could consider cutting manlands for more basics
Bitterblossom becomes less desirable now that I have no swords to equip to the tokens
Liliana of the Veil is probably not as gamebreaking as Liliana Vess's ultimate could be.
All of this said, I hope I'm not stepping too far out of bounds for this Primer, but just want to try a few different things to make sure I'm not wrong
I'll post a final list once I get a chance to test more with Theros cards.
I think Thassa is a -strong- contender and will earn some testing.
Pros for her:
+Essentially a planeswalker with an aggressively low cost
+Indestructible Attacker/Blocker
+Potentially Unblockable Sword Carrier or Dromar (takes some planning with SOFI)
+Enchantment (interacts well with a lot of things in our deck)
+Scry ability which is very good when this deck -occasionally- stalls or needs to dig for a board wipe/tutor.
Con: Not always a creature. (but this can be helpful when we cast terminus, then add devotion like Invoke Prejudice, or Replenish with our card-drawer enchantments, Taimyo (though she may be the slot that gets cut), Tezzeret, and Rule of law can be easily changed to Arcane Laboratory.
Some potential slots:
Tamiyo (I feel like she may be an under performer, I've achieved her ultimate and still lost the game.)
Sun Titan: (can be fragile at times. Comparatively costly.)
Maze of Ith (Indestructible Blocker might be an ample replacement. I seldom tutor for this card as opposed to Swords to Plowshares or a board wipe.)
I'm not sure about Elspeth. I don't see her a better than something like Luminarch Ascension, and Sorin can make 2+ more useful tokens or emblems before this Elspeth can even come online. I see Elspeth Tirel as strictly better for making tokens and protecting our life total. Retribution of the Meek only costs 2W, does not allow for regenneration, yet neither of those cards even come near consideration for our already very tight list
Erebos: Greed on an indestructible body is pretty cool, Not sure that we care about "players can't gain life" because our deck wins by general damage or people quit," which brings me to:
Another Topic Entirely: Sword Package
How has this been performing overall? I'm finding that sword package is hit or miss lately. While it's very very fun to keyrune people to death with sword attached, it isn't the most efficient way to kill a table of four. It can "represent a win" and force people to quit after lockout, but maybe we can brainstorm some alternate ways to kill more efficiently, without the use of infinite combo.
I think Luminarch Ascension has been a great start, as it represents a win to a locked table like no other.
Necropotence is a dirty word these days, but perhaps it can move the plan along a lot faster. We're already playing kinda dirty here, and Necro is the dirtiest
Capsize also represents a win, albeit expensive.
While I personally do not run Jace the Mind Sculptor, I think I may consider it now that the FTV20 is available in foil.
Flip side of the coin: we could run a few more answers, ala Counterspell Arcane Denial, Delay, Envelop, or Muddle the Mixture.
How does it kill?
I've been thinking about making something along these lines but with reanimator spells and big dragons.
Something that was suggested to me as a companion to Torpor Orb: Cursed Totem
Many people in my meta have been reacting to torpor orb by adding more rattlesnake creatures such as Viridian Zealot or Nullmage Shepherd. I also play against mana-elf engine decks such as Ezuri Renegade Leader, Rhys the Redeemed and Edric Spymaster of Trest.
And for those unaware: Dromar's ability is a triggered ability, despite that it has the 2U cost to activate it.
I'll take out Blind Obedience as well, replacing it with Cursed Totem and see where this goes. Nice pickup on the Forcefield!
-Idyllic Tutor + Grim Tutor (Another recent Acquisition, through the online store I run)
-Desolation + Luminarch Ascension
-Night of Souls Betrayal +Invoke Prejudice
-Catastrophe +Terminus
-Smokestack, +Cataclysm
-Pendrell Mists +The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Change in colored symbols:
-BBBBUWWW
+BBUUUUWWW
So this warranted a swap of +1 Island -1 Swamp.
My list:
1 Dromar, the Banisher
Artifacts:
1 Azorius Keyrune
1 Azorius Signet
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Dimir Keyrune
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Mana Vault
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Torpor Orb
1 Trading Post
Creatures: 1
1 Sun Titan
Enchantments:
1 Aura of Silence
1 Bitterblossom
1 Blind Obedience
1 Desolation
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Humility
1 Invoke Prejudice
1 Land Equilibrium
1 Land Tax
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Mana Vortex
1 Mystic Remora
1 Nether Void
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Propaganda
1 Rule of Law
1 Rhystic Study
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
Spells:
1 Armageddon
1 Cataclysm
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Hallowed Burial
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Merciless Eviction
1 Oblation
1 Replenish
1 Return to Dust
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Terminus
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Wrath of God
Lands: 38
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Command Tower
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Fetid Heath
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Kor Haven
4 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mystic Gate
5 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Strip Mine
1 Sunken Ruins
3 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
I've never been completely oppressed by Blood Moon effects, as I generally tutor for Land Tax as quickly as possible. It's non-threatening, guarantees my land drops and sets me up nice for a recovery if I choose to Armageddon or Cataclysm. Also from my experience in Legacy, I try my best to fetch Basics with my fetches if I can afford to, and avoid getting needlessly greedy with fixing. Finally, as long as we can prioritize securing BWW we can effectively tutor for and cast any of our spot/Mass removal.
This was exactly what I did! Smokestack just hasn't impacted the board in very effective ways, and is a near-dead draw in the late game.