I don't think you can play 3 mana gideon and disintegration in the same deck. So, I cut black to see what it would look like. 3 mana gideon plays well with chandra and not with 4 mana gideon, so I cut 4 mana gideon. Gideon into Chandra lets you hold off threats with the plus and gain value with chandra's plus. Seems like a great combo. This deck is a gamble on the power of the new gideon and having consistent mana.
You can swap in some ballistas for pia or play around with avacyn / chandra. I don't think this deck looks as good as mardu. You really have to give up a lot for that black splash. Maybe a slightly more aggressive build would be better to take advantage of the mana consistency...
It's pretty lean and mean. Is that good enough? Can it get under the current 25 land mardu midrange builds? I think it needs more answers to HoK maindeck, but I don't see where it can get them. It's also very low on artifacts -- those harnessed lightnings probably need to be scroungers. We should also cut back on needle spires to have a good curve.
The last list has 22 crew "sources," which is at least 4 more than is typical. Those veteran motorists or depala's could easily be different 1 or two drops with 2 power. Yes they are good with the vehicles, but motorist is bad against ballista and 1/1's, while depala can be very clumsy at times. The new 3/2 for RW with battlecry might be better than motorist just because of the extra toughness. Harsh mentor looks particularly potent against the current mardu lists -- swapping this for motorist would replace a bad card vs. ballista with a great one.
Just thought I'd throw out some ideas with the new Gideon. That first and last lists look the best to me. In the last list you're a little short on scrounger having black mana (10 vs. a desired 11 sources), but he's probably fine even as an artifact with 3 power that can get some value in the late game. Overall, I'm still not sure if it's worth cutting disintegration and fatal push, as you lack interaction with the larger creatures in the format like all the vehicles and the GB deck as a whole... but there are certainly other options to explore with Amonkhet.
Yeah, I like that. Protoype was pretty good against black decks last season -- it doesn't die to grasp or ultimate price or languish, so they only had ruinous path. We'll see how things go, but it could be very viable since you're dumping your hand anyway.
Flood the board with bad creatures and hope your opponent doesn't have a sweeper! This strategy (billion creatures + Fortify) is almost always good for some "cheap" wins at FNM the first week or two when most people are playing clunky midrange decks.
The whole deck is $20? Maybe? It's gotta be like 3 tix online.
Selfless Spirit is a huge addition to beat sweepers and get in flying beats. Gideon is probably only good in the sideboard and should go in with a few more plains. Don't worry about delirium with topplegeist. Save the tap effect for when it's good. Don't play any non-white lands (i.e. westvale abbey) -- you need a ton of white mana and a colorless source will throw it all off. Gryff's boon is good on a gosspimonger or militia captain late game, but early it's better on envoy. Odric might be good enough with 11 flying "sources" as a four mana Falter.
I think if you have a k-return trigger, a dies trigger, and an emerge trigger on the stack, you'll probably be able to recover from your emerge creature being countered.
For what it's worth, secure looked bad on camera, and I suspect we'll see him say "it's bad" in his next article. By the time you're casting secure for a decent number, most decks are turning the corner and just killing you, and you would have been better off with a spell you could cast early.
Does anyone have matchup data for the deck? I've been keeping track of my record with a Wu version and I'm curious to see how it compares to the standard and to other splash colors. The basic plan is the same, but with counterspells for sweepers and collected company after sideboarding.
Adding counterspells seems to take the company matchup from a (preboarded, thus no counterspells) ~55% matchup to an ~80% one. I win 75% of sideboarded games against all varieties of company decks, which is pretty crazy. I'm pretty sure all the match losses have come from the BG husk versions -- I'm not sure what that matchup % is in particular.
Ramp and GB based control decks don't put up much of a fight until they load up on sweepers after sideboarding. I expect that the maindeck gideons give this version a better chance in preboard games than the standard version. However, even with the counterspells, the sideboarded games are only 50%. Overall these two matchups are ~60%, which I think is better than the normal WW.
Finally, the Wu deck is awful against typical WW decks, since you have always watching a much lower percent of the time, draw more lands, and don't curve 1 drop into 2 1-drops as often. I'm testing tragic arrogance and lands in the sideboard, but haven't run into the deck again yet, so I don't know if that plan will work. I tried 3 archangel of the tithes, but it's just not enough on its own.
The GW matchup feels pretty even (even though I have a winning record against them, I don't have many observations). Avacyn is a hell of a card. Stasis snare out of the sideboard doesn't seem to help the matchup very much -- it's at least as good as their plan of bringing in more little guys. The GWr matchup is bad though -- once the deck has access to radiant flames, it's just very difficult to combat. There's still a lot of variation in the lists too. Some have a lot of walkers, others have a lot of creatures. If I bring in stasis snare, it might be dead against their draw if they hit a lot of non-creatures, but if I bring in negate, it could be dead if they draw the creature half. Maybe clash of wills is the answer?
Anyway, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on different matchups, and to know if I'm actually bringing anything to the table by adding blue. Thanks.
I've been doing really well with this deck in competitive leagues, currently 30-11-0. For a while I was on a streak -- 21-2 at one point. It's basically mono-white, with gideon instead of always watching and blue for reflector mage and sideboard counterspells. Those 1 mana counters win me a lot of games. Countering a Coco or Languish normally ends the game on the spot.
The reason to run gideon over always watching is that you can't add too many non-threats to the deck, or it stops working well. Gideon lets you keep in some number of "always watching" effects, also have counterspells, and also keep the threat count high. He's either solid against most decks, or amazing. It seems weird to me that more people aren't running him.
Your worst matchup is decks that run creatures AND sweepers. That makes boarding difficult, but I think it's best in those cases to just forget the sorcery counterspells and play around the sweepers. Dispel might be good at beating point removal instead.
Decks with only kalitas as a creature can be tough. You have to keep in some number of bad spells against those decks (declaration or reflector) because kalitas will take over a game if you can't make them immediately chump with him. Sometimes you draw the spell and they don't draw kalitas, and you lose because you "took a mulligan", or they draw kalitas and you don't have the removal spell.
The mirror is tricky, it always seems to come down to a race. Just fly in and try to gain some life.
The list I played was even worse than the above because I couldn't find Thalia's Lieutenant, always watching, or Port town, so I replaced them with the 3 mana +2/+1 sorcery from SOI (can't recall the name), an Eerie Interlude, and a Meandering River. I never saw interlude, but the +2/+1 sorcery did win me a few games. Still, I can't imagine it's better than Lieutenant.
Anyway, I think this is the way to go. The deck has some ridiculous curves and regularly kills on turn 4-5. It's a little bit of a "sweeper" gambit though -- without a gideon the deck is very weak to them. In the sideboard, I think Invasive Surgery could go a long way to helping that problem, as well as dispel for kozilek's return.
Six blue sources doesn't seem like alot, but knight is very frequently a blue source (even when you're on the play, since the deck doesn't play a lot of lands anyway) so it's much closer to 10. Reflector mage may seem like a strange card to splash for, but it is really perfect for the deck. It's almost a removal spell on a 2/3.
Looks like Seth Manfield is playing something similar today at the SCG Baltimore Open
4x Mountain
4x Needle Spires
7x Plains
2x Spire of Industry
2x Aether Hub
4x Toolcraft Exemplar
3x Shock
4x Veteran Motorist
4x Harnessed Lightning
4x Heart of Kiran
2x Pia Nalaar
1x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2x Aethersphere Harvester
4x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Archangel Avacyn
You can swap in some ballistas for pia or play around with avacyn / chandra. I don't think this deck looks as good as mardu. You really have to give up a lot for that black splash. Maybe a slightly more aggressive build would be better to take advantage of the mana consistency...
5x Mountain
4x Needle Spires
7x Plains
1x Spire of Industry
1x Aether Hub
4x Toolcraft Exemplar
4x Inventor's Apprentice
4x Shock
4x Veteran Motorist
4x Harnessed Lightning
4x Heart of Kiran
2x Pia Nalaar
2x Depala, Pilot Exemplar
2x Aethersphere Harvester
It's pretty lean and mean. Is that good enough? Can it get under the current 25 land mardu midrange builds? I think it needs more answers to HoK maindeck, but I don't see where it can get them. It's also very low on artifacts -- those harnessed lightnings probably need to be scroungers. We should also cut back on needle spires to have a good curve.
4x Mountain
2x Needle Spires
4x Plains
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Spire of Industry
4x Toolcraft Exemplar
4x Inventor's Apprentice
4x Shock
4x Veteran Motorist
4x Scrapheap Scrounger
4x Heart of Kiran
2x Pia Nalaar
2x Depala, Pilot Exemplar
2x Cultivator's Caravan
The last list has 22 crew "sources," which is at least 4 more than is typical. Those veteran motorists or depala's could easily be different 1 or two drops with 2 power. Yes they are good with the vehicles, but motorist is bad against ballista and 1/1's, while depala can be very clumsy at times. The new 3/2 for RW with battlecry might be better than motorist just because of the extra toughness. Harsh mentor looks particularly potent against the current mardu lists -- swapping this for motorist would replace a bad card vs. ballista with a great one.
4x Mountain
2x Needle Spires
4x Plains
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Spire of Industry
4x Toolcraft Exemplar
4x Inventor's Apprentice
4x Shock
4x Harsh mentor
2x Honored Crop-Captain
4x Scrapheap Scrounger
4x Heart of Kiran
2x Pia Nalaar
2x Cultivator's Caravan
Just thought I'd throw out some ideas with the new Gideon. That first and last lists look the best to me. In the last list you're a little short on scrounger having black mana (10 vs. a desired 11 sources), but he's probably fine even as an artifact with 3 power that can get some value in the late game. Overall, I'm still not sure if it's worth cutting disintegration and fatal push, as you lack interaction with the larger creatures in the format like all the vehicles and the GB deck as a whole... but there are certainly other options to explore with Amonkhet.
4 Expedition Envoy
4 Town Gossipmonger
4 Topplegeist
4 Kitesail Scout
1 Cliffside Lookout
1 Stern Constable
3 Gryff's Boon
4 Servo Exhibition
4 Borrowed Grace
4 Collective Effort
19 Plains
4 Bygone Bishop
4 Lantern Scout
Maybeboard
4 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
4 Selfless Spirit
4 Declaration in Stone
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
The whole deck is $20? Maybe? It's gotta be like 3 tix online.
Selfless Spirit is a huge addition to beat sweepers and get in flying beats. Gideon is probably only good in the sideboard and should go in with a few more plains. Don't worry about delirium with topplegeist. Save the tap effect for when it's good. Don't play any non-white lands (i.e. westvale abbey) -- you need a ton of white mana and a colorless source will throw it all off. Gryff's boon is good on a gosspimonger or militia captain late game, but early it's better on envoy. Odric might be good enough with 11 flying "sources" as a four mana Falter.
Here's my list and deck discussion: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/wu-human-aggro/
Here's my data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d2CvjeAiGLUcdoSg4zWdto_2Ah2rCrGcY6JUuAcOmiM/edit?usp=sharing
Adding counterspells seems to take the company matchup from a (preboarded, thus no counterspells) ~55% matchup to an ~80% one. I win 75% of sideboarded games against all varieties of company decks, which is pretty crazy. I'm pretty sure all the match losses have come from the BG husk versions -- I'm not sure what that matchup % is in particular.
Ramp and GB based control decks don't put up much of a fight until they load up on sweepers after sideboarding. I expect that the maindeck gideons give this version a better chance in preboard games than the standard version. However, even with the counterspells, the sideboarded games are only 50%. Overall these two matchups are ~60%, which I think is better than the normal WW.
Finally, the Wu deck is awful against typical WW decks, since you have always watching a much lower percent of the time, draw more lands, and don't curve 1 drop into 2 1-drops as often. I'm testing tragic arrogance and lands in the sideboard, but haven't run into the deck again yet, so I don't know if that plan will work. I tried 3 archangel of the tithes, but it's just not enough on its own.
The GW matchup feels pretty even (even though I have a winning record against them, I don't have many observations). Avacyn is a hell of a card. Stasis snare out of the sideboard doesn't seem to help the matchup very much -- it's at least as good as their plan of bringing in more little guys. The GWr matchup is bad though -- once the deck has access to radiant flames, it's just very difficult to combat. There's still a lot of variation in the lists too. Some have a lot of walkers, others have a lot of creatures. If I bring in stasis snare, it might be dead against their draw if they hit a lot of non-creatures, but if I bring in negate, it could be dead if they draw the creature half. Maybe clash of wills is the answer?
Anyway, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on different matchups, and to know if I'm actually bringing anything to the table by adding blue. Thanks.
The reason to run gideon over always watching is that you can't add too many non-threats to the deck, or it stops working well. Gideon lets you keep in some number of "always watching" effects, also have counterspells, and also keep the threat count high. He's either solid against most decks, or amazing. It seems weird to me that more people aren't running him.
2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
3x Dragon Hunter
4x Expedition Envoy
4x Thraben Inspector
4x Town Gossipmonger
2x Gryff's Boon
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Declaration in Stone
2x Always Watching
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
12x Plains
4x Port Town
3x Prairie Stream
3x Dispel
3x Invasive Surgery
3x Negate
1x Gryff's Boon
1x Hidden Dragonslayer
2x Lantern Scout
2x Stasis Snare
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
Boarding:
coco decks: -3 gideon, +3 dispel, -1 anointer of champions, +1 gryff's boon
Zulaport / Husk decks with coco: -3 Gideon, +3 dispel, -2 Always Watching, +2 Stasis Snare, -1 2/1, +1 Gryff's boon
Ramp decks: -2 Declaration in stone, -2 Gryff's Boon +3 Negate, +1 Hidden dragonslayer
Mirror: -3 Gideon, +2 Lantern Scout, +1 Gryff's Boon. On the draw, -1 Anointer, +1 stasis snare
GW: +2 Stasis snare, +1 Gryff's boon, -2 Always Watching, -1 reflector mage? Maybe bring in dispel too?
Esper / GB / Kalitas control: -3 Declaration in stone, -1 Reflector Mage, -2 Always Watching, +3 Invasive Surgery, +1 Negate + 2 Dispel.
Your worst matchup is decks that run creatures AND sweepers. That makes boarding difficult, but I think it's best in those cases to just forget the sorcery counterspells and play around the sweepers. Dispel might be good at beating point removal instead.
Decks with only kalitas as a creature can be tough. You have to keep in some number of bad spells against those decks (declaration or reflector) because kalitas will take over a game if you can't make them immediately chump with him. Sometimes you draw the spell and they don't draw kalitas, and you lose because you "took a mulligan", or they draw kalitas and you don't have the removal spell.
The mirror is tricky, it always seems to come down to a race. Just fly in and try to gain some life.
REPRINTED
Tarmogoyf
Brainstorm
Goblin Lackey
Goblin Guide
Goblin Ringleader
NOT REPRINTED:
Ponder
Gitaxian Probe
Deathrite Shaman
Abrupt Decay
Cabal Therapy
UW midrange that goes up to Ojutai and Avacyn which stars always watching
GW aggro with Coco for reach
Wu aggro with 16+ 1 drops and reflector mage
W aggro with 16+ 1 drops
edit: he's a bit bigger with ojutai and multiple 4 drops, morphs, etc.
4x Topplegeist
4x Town Gossipmonger
4x Dragon Hunter
4x Expedition Envoy
2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
2x Declaration in Stone
4x Reflector Mage
1x Always Watching
14x Plains
2x Port Town
4x Prairie Stream
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
The list I played was even worse than the above because I couldn't find Thalia's Lieutenant, always watching, or Port town, so I replaced them with the 3 mana +2/+1 sorcery from SOI (can't recall the name), an Eerie Interlude, and a Meandering River. I never saw interlude, but the +2/+1 sorcery did win me a few games. Still, I can't imagine it's better than Lieutenant.
Anyway, I think this is the way to go. The deck has some ridiculous curves and regularly kills on turn 4-5. It's a little bit of a "sweeper" gambit though -- without a gideon the deck is very weak to them. In the sideboard, I think Invasive Surgery could go a long way to helping that problem, as well as dispel for kozilek's return.
Six blue sources doesn't seem like alot, but knight is very frequently a blue source (even when you're on the play, since the deck doesn't play a lot of lands anyway) so it's much closer to 10. Reflector mage may seem like a strange card to splash for, but it is really perfect for the deck. It's almost a removal spell on a 2/3.
Looks like Seth Manfield is playing something similar today at the SCG Baltimore Open
https://web.archive.org/web/20110427071337/http://magiclampoon.com/blog/