To my first question, those are not answers. Those are excuses. I didn't ask why you didn't protect Niv; I asked why you didn't use your ability at all.
The answer is the same. Once again I have already posted this. Here CP, I’ll do your home work for you, Again.
If no, why did you wait so long to use a protection ability that you seem to be able to turn on and off at will. You didn't see anyone worth protecting? -Were you afraid of accidentally stopping a kill... that seems silly. If you were afraid of your blocking power doing damage, why not block... me, for example? I have no ability to block, why not keep me safe from early kills?
I think this question was pretty much answered in this post.
Wrong.
Day one several things combined to make me decide not to use my ability.
First, I had no reason to believe Niv at the time.
Second, The timing of Niv’s claim and ability use did not give me any opportunity to anticipate that the need to protect him.
Third, and most important, I did not see Niv’s claim and results until after he had already made his post revealing that he had done what he had done.
The most effective time for me to use my ability is when I can reasonably predict that it will be useful. I could protect any player and they would not be able to use their ability. If I protect them only when they are likely to be targeted the chance of being successful is much higher. Also my ability allows the player being protected to decide when to reveal that they are no
longer being protected. That is if I don't reveal it, which I might or might not do as the situation dictates and if revealing the information would be in the best interests of the town to be known.
In reviewing my role early on I could tell there should be distinctive flavor involved in the use of my ability. I did not want to have any indication of my ability out there before I had decided on which players to protect and the right situation to be set up for me to use my ability. As I have already described I decided to use my ability ion a manner strategically different then just locking up a player. By keeping my ability hidden and playing as a disinterested lurker I intended to put myself outside of the attention of any scum players looking for hints of power roles. Had I used my ability earlier the scum would have played in a manner that would have taken into consideration that my ability was out there. I would not have nearly as good odds of effectively using my ability as I had decided to do.
Right or wrong that is what I did and why I did it. I think that it will remain to be seen if what I did worked as I intended it to.
I hope that answers your questions. If not ask some more and I will do my best to answer them.
To my second question, if I'm reading the numbers right, you're claiming that the reason for the wait was because you weren't around for several days after the lynch. That's kinda pathetic, but I suppose I can accept that as an answer.
To the third point, if you're town and you come under suspicion, you're supposed to be able to point to the places where you've done things scum wouldn't do. Otherwise, you're supposed to get lynched. Do you seriously think that the town should not lynch players who play the way scum would?
The first part of this statement is ridiculous. Every scum player tries to play as though that are town players. According to you statement what kind of action is a town player supposed to do that the scum would not do themselves in order to appear town like? Are you saying that town players should play in such a way that they come up with an action the scum would not and then hold that as proof that they are townies if they come under session? If that is what you think it is to play as a townie I completely disagree with you. It is my opinion that a town player should play in such a way that they try to catch scum, they try to generate information that the town can then use to analyze actions and reactions of players. I never worry about how my tactics will be viewed by others if I know that I am doing one or both of those things. Frankly I can see why some newer players don’t post more or lurk as it is common for townies who do try to generate action and information to come under suspicion like I am from people who have a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of a townie role. They also can commonly come under suspicion from veteran players who get caught up in misreading the actions and intentions of a player who does try to generate action and information. These players have a problem admitting when they are wrong and by the time they come to realize how wrong they are they have their foot so far in their mouth it is hard or impossible for them to extract it and save face.
I never claimed to be able to read you at all, but I do claim that you haven't done anything in this thread that doesn't benefit the scum, and that's an awfully large hurdle for you to get past if you don't want me to be trying to lynch you. If you have done anything in this game that points away from you being scum, you (or someone, at least) should be able to point to it. We don't not lynch scummy people because we can't prove they're scum. We do lynch scummy people when they can't prove they're town.
Not saying you are lying while you state information that is untrue is lying. You said that I was doing at least two actions that are tells and that I would happily do something as scum clearly implies that you think you know me well enough to make those statements. You also implied that you had some credibility to support those statements which is untrue. You are completely wrong about all three statements and that they have been pointed out you are trying to backtrack away from them.
CP you may try to say that I have not done anything that does not benefit the scum but that is also a skewed view of my actions. I have played in order to try to catch scum and to generate information and actions that will help the town be able to analyze players and find scum. You may try to deny this or try to ignore how may actions help the town but that will become evident and visible. At some point it will no longer be possible to simply say that my actions were misinterpreted as scummy. At some point it will not be possible to simply say that the reasons and answers I have given for my actions are simply lies. When every action I have made is characterized as scummy no matter what I say, it will become obvious that the unrelenting and unreasoning stance to my actions and words is fueled by something other then the intention to find scum.
Carrion Pigeons, you made a nice long post, reiterating questions you and others have already asked me and that I have already answered and presented them as if they are new.
So I ask you, how should I respond?
When I have already answered, completely truthfully and you ignore my answers, then you re-ask the same questions, how should I respond?
Well, here is how I have decided to respond. I am going to, once again, answer the same questions with the same answers I gave earlier. The truth is the truth and it will not change. I have no control over whether or not you believe the truth but I have hopes that if I keep repeating the truth you might actually realize that you have been getting honest answers all along.
Except he didn't do it on day 1 or day 2, when there were two mafia kills flying around. He's only deployed it once there's no terrorist kill to worry about. If he was really using it that way, he would have used it after Niv declared his result on day 1, but he didn't. Hoping the other scum group would kill Niv, no doubt.
Wrong.
Day one several things combined to make me decide not to use my ability.
First, I had no reason to believe Niv at the time.
Second, The timing of Niv’s claim and ability use did not give me any opportunity to anticipate that the need to protect him.
Third, and most important, I did not see Niv’s claim and results until after he had already made his post revealing that he had done what he had done.
The most effective time for me to use my ability is when I can reasonably predict that it will be useful. I could protect any player and they would not be able to use their ability. If I protect them only when they are likely to be targeted the chance of being successful is much higher. Also my ability allows the player being protected to decide when to reveal that they are no longer being protected. That is if I don't reveal it, which I might or might not do as the situation dictates and if revealing the information would be in the best interests of the town to be known.
And using it on Niv now is all well and good, but the point is- why did you not protect Niv earlier? Why did you not use it until the 3rd lynch of the game had been decided? Where was it until then?
Did Niv need to be protected earlier? Seems he is here and well. I held my ability until a point where I was fairly confident that the scum would have decided that it did not exist and would not be playing to take it into account. I also waited until I felt confident that I would have a very good chance of catching scum in the attempt of making kills that I would be able to predict.
and would the mod include what amounts to a better-than-doc in the game? I guess I'm willing to accept the possibility of a really good doc variant, even with Azrael's "Physician" role already known to be in the game. RK Mafia has made me wary. But it still makes me skeptical.
Yes he would. That is what my role is. I know I’m the only one who can come out and say this right now, but once I’m lynched it will be shown to be true.
As to the other point, I'm not able to find any kind of real explanation from Hawk as to why he never bothered to target anyone before Raf.
That’s funny. It did not take me very long to find not one but two very clear examples of me explaining why I did not target anyone before Raf. You know, if I were a suspicious man I’d say you either weren’t looking very hard or that you were trying to spread misinformation.
Then, of course, there was the constant effort to stay under the radar, and the fact that he has never made more of an attempt to defend himself than to spit bile at whoever looks at him askance. Both of these are general scum tells, and I know that HE7 is consistently guilty of both when he's scum, though he's hardly better as town, which makes things difficult (though it also makes his whole "You don't know how to read me" spiel that he gave Raf and Cyan kinda laughable).
Ah, now you are going to say you are better at reading me the Raf or Cyan. By all means CP step up to the plate and swing away.
Let’s see, “constant attempt to stay under the radar”, - that ended the second I decided to nail SB. - Foul ball, Strike One.
“he has never made more of an attempt to defend himself than to spit bile at whoever looks at him askance. “ - I have defended myself near constantly against accusations made by Raf, Niv, FFT, Kav and you ever since I posted my role and the actions I have made in this game. I’m doing it in this post. Just because you refuse to accept my explanations does not mean they were not made.
For you to try to spin my posts as not defending myself is ridiculous. Swing and a miss - Strike Two.
“Both of these are general scum tells, and I know that HE7 is consistently guilty of both when he's scum, though he's hardly better as town, which makes things difficult (though it also makes his whole "You don't know how to read me" spiel that he gave Raf and Cyan kinda laughable).” - What is really laughable is this attempt by you to somehow pawn yourself off as having some insight or skill that Raf or Cyan does not. I really don’t know what to say here CP but you are just as wrong as they are. They are just a little more honest about it.
2. Hawkeye jailed Raf for far too long for it be the act of someone concerned for his safety, and
this is a good question and one I don’t remember being asked before.
I kept Raf in custody longer then I originally intended to. I was making an educated guess as to how long it may have been since the last kill to try to best protect Raf at a point when I thought he would be a very likely target of scum attack.
03-11-2008, 04:20 PM arimnaes posted that andelijah and StormBlind had both been killed. Discussion ensued. I knew the kill would most likely not be able to be used again for 3 hours so I waited. I did not know what Raf’s ability was but from his actions relating to catching AS I assumed it was investigatory. I hoped that by waiting I would give Raf an opportunity to use his ability before I put him into protective custody.
03-12-2008, 07:29 PM I sent in my order to take Raf in.
03-12-2008, 07:46 PM my order to take Raf in was confirmed.
03-18-2008, 07:54 AM I sent in my order to release Raf.
03-18-2008, 09:27 AM my order to release Raf was confirmed.
Raf would not be able to use his ability from custody but I did find out he could post. I also wanted to try to keep him in custody long enough to let the scum get their kill back an then waste it on Raf. I apparently miscalculated the game time and real time conversion. To be honest I’m still not sure on the conversion.
If Hawkeye can satisfactorily answer the last point and at least one of the others, I'm willing to look elsewhere today, but I've gone through all of his posts, and I don't see anything but scumminess. I expect to lynch him today.
??????
If I can satisfactorily answer the last point? The one about how you are trying to say you know I would do something happily as a scum player?
How can I answer that?
It’s complete fabrication and fantasy on your part.
Look CP and everyone. What are you supposed to do when you are a town player and you come under suspicion?
You are supposed to tell the truth.
I have done that.
Everything I have posted about my role, my actions and my intentions has been completely truthful. It’s all I can do. You can keep asking me the same questions and you will get the same answers, because it is the truth.
Several players keep trying to read into my posts and come up with explanations as to why I have done what I have done, attributing sinister intentions to then and pretending that they have some credibility because they have some insight into how I play the game. They say they know my “tells“. Anyone who is honest and has a memory will know this is not true.
You may not agree with my thinking or reasoning for doing what I have done, but if you look at what I did and what I claim were my reasons, you should be able to see that I am telling the truth.
Play whatever you like. I'd like to play mafia, but no matter what I say you appearently will not even entertain the possibility i have spoken only the truth. Cute remark though.
Isn't it obvious? I'm telling the truth. I have posted nothing but the truth and the only people who will have any real knowledge of that are the mafia. You have gotten so full of yourself and plowed ahead building a case based on nothing. You have an explaination of all my actions that i have supplied which is entirely true. You have read into my words meanings that are not only not there, but completely wrong. It is exactly the same thing Cyan has done so many times before. Since you will not admit that you are wrong you will continue to push this case of yours and the players who are too lazy or too sheep like will follow you.
GT for a long time now has fought your case. I'd like to think that is because he has the intellegence, intuition or just plain guts to stand up to your demagoguery or blind arrogance. The other possibility for him to stand against your bandwagon is that he is mafia nad knows that you are wrong. If this is the case he is taking the chance to cast his support for me and hopes to gain credibility when I am shown to have spoken only the truth.
In either case we will learn a good deal by targetting a player who has positioned himself like GT has.
Well, first, I don't even know that you can protect anyone, it's just a giant giveaway if you were protecting someone when you said you weren't.
I've claimed a protection role and no one has counterclaimed me. I have explained exactly how my ability works and I have described exactly how and why I targetted you and Niv. Neither you or Niv have found anything I claimed to be false. You may not be able to confirm every aspect of what i claimed, but think about it. How could I have claimed, in the detail, what I did as a scum player and not have taken a great risk of you or Niv being able to catch me in a lie?
I wish I had a buck for every time I have had to say this. Every word i posted is true and you, Raf, are so wrong it is comical.
And second, Niv can only check one person at a time.
It does not matter who Niv checks. The only players i have used my ability on so far are you and Niv. You can direct him to target anyone and the result will be the same. My name will not come up if Niv is telling the truth.
Your attitude is making me very sure that the right move is to lynch you first and work out your partner later, though, since all you're doing is being negative and you're not scum-hunting..
Raf, every tactic and play i have done this game has been designed to find scum. I have described almost every one of them i have done this game and each and every time i have you have tried to completely misrepresent my actions as scummy. So I hope you and everyone else will forgive me when i say I really don't care what you think of my attitude. Your ability to honestly evaluate it and my actions this game is nothing but second rate.
If you were actually reading the game with interest instead of just sniping, you would know I've already said early this day I've had another result. Whether or not the town needs to know who took the action or who they targeted is another question, since there's no reason to believe it was a kill or other negative action. I'm still thinking about it.
Once again you have missed my meaning, completely.
Sigh, THINK about it Raf. Why would i suggest you might want to reveal your results? Maybe becuase you might get killed before you can reveal them, obviously.
Right now if you are town, you are the perfect foil for the mafia. Hopelessly clueless, too arrogant to admit you are wrong and leading the town in a direction that will get townies killed and buy the mafia time. the problem is that once I'm dead or shown to be telling the truth, a point in the game that is rapidly approaching, you will be either lynched or killed by the scum.
In other words, you are this games Cyan.
And... when it comes out as Axelrod or TFF, we do what?
I have an even better idea now.
Niv should target GT or CM. If it turns out Hawkeye has been "protecting" scum buddies through the first couple of days from being cross-killed, which is what I suspect he was doing- you don't really think he sat on his ability for 3 lynches, do you?- we get absolute proof not only against Hawkeye but also against the person he secretly protected.
I like the idea Raf, as it will show that i did not target either player he chooses to use his ability on. Of the two I would suggest targetting GT, but that is entiirely up to you to deside. That is because it looks like Niv is going to do whatever you think he should do.
So tell me, how do you plan to spin this to make me look bad when Niv returns the results that do not show me targettting anyone he may target?
For some reason you have it in your mind that I'm lying. either that or you know I'm telling the truth, which I am, and you want me out of the way.
Obviously, the consensus has changed about me using my ability again on Niv.
Anyone want to make a suggestion as to who it might benefit the town for me to protect?
Also, Raf, it's been a while since you were released from my custody I'm sure you have geared up your ability again. Found anything the town should know?
@ Raf, Cyan and CM, since no one really disputes my claimed ability why have none of you even considered how it could be best used by the town?
If I had claimed vig I'd venture that there would be a discussion of how to best use the ability.
You're so hot to get me lynched, based on nothing but poorly developed conjecture and prejudice, that I think you will try or say almost any arguement to get me lynched while ignoring very important facts about my role.
And seriously, you'll get the GT case tonight as I said. I'm in Australia. Tonight is NOT NOW, so quit hassling me, I'm posting too much from work as it is.
Settle down, no need to get upset.
I guess it's a good thing i posted when i did to remind you that you had committed to doing the GT case.
You are welcome.
It would not have looked so good for you to have lied about that too.
It's a good thing that you have so much time to come up with a case on GT now too. Because it is obviously a priority with you or you would not have posted that you would absolutely be posting that case today.
I look forward to reading what you come up with on GT.
I'm sure it will be interesting at least.
If I'm scum, I interrupted a day which could go anywhere to paint a target on myself. If I'm scum and knew for sure that AS was the last of his group, then I've got rid of one of the mafia kills. This is not brilliant strategy.
How does the quality of the strategy act as a defense against you being scum?
I was also 100% right that AS was a scum roleblocker who blocked Niv, so you kind of have to concede that I know what I'm talking about...
Yes, you were right in this one particular incident. As far as I can see you haven’t been right about anything since and I really can’t vouch for anything before. I’d have to actually go back and look specifically to see if you were. Since you have been so completely wrong since outing AS it makes me wonder. If it was your ability that allowed you to be right about AS, then why have you not been able to come up with anything else? If it was just a lucky guess, then that would explain why you haven’t come up with anything and also it would explain why you have been dodging all questions regarding your claim or lack there of.
Eh? One had to be the person who roleblocked me and was- Hawk. I didn't consider there was any legit reason for a town roleblocker blocking me. I still don't, I think Hawk has people snowed because he's so reasonable and has an explanation, notwithstanding he hasn't ever explained why he didn't "protect" Niv or anyone else between midday and 6:50pm.
I’m adding you name to the list of liars in this game Raf. You may not agree with my reasoning but you are lying about me not explaining why I did not protect Niv earlier. I have explained this a couple of times and once , at least, directly to you.
Now, this begs the question, why is Raf lying about me explaining this? I think the answer is that you want to try to keep me from being considered a likely townie. This is the only explaination I can think of that makes your attempts to make me look scummy, make any sense.
Re: Xyre- I thought the time point was extremely nowhere because I expected him to say something like "yeah, misremembered it, it was later than that". Unless I confirm with arim, I wouldn't remember exactly what game times I use abilities and stuff either. So I found TFF's case to be very nowhere, because it hinged on Xyre saying a time which he could have misremembered by 10 minutes or so.
That's exactly why I don't answer for people, though, no matter how obvious the answer seems.
simply because you were able to think of the most obvious defense xyre would give does not make the point, that Xyre completely botched the time line up, "extremely nowhere".
It is a significant mistake and well worth noting. As is your defense of Xyre on this point and your positioning yourself just close enough to the middle of this issue as to let you say that you were either for or against a Xyre lynch with little effort.
I guess I need to go through the rest of Xyre's stuff later to make up my mind on this more completely. And I still want to take a look through GT's stuff. And get to at least 11:10pm so I can confirm or deny whether a particular person did the Axelrod kill.
Way to commit yourself to trying to make an informed decision.
You stated yesterday that you were working on a case against GT today. You said that you were Absolutely going to post that case.
BTW, it's now 11pm- one game hour to go to deadline, and half the town is hardly talking.
I'm at my Dad's birthday dinner tonight but will absolutely be making a case on GT tomorrow. He's right about one thing- we can't keep wasting time on Hawkeye today, and I've definitely been guilty of that.
So Raf, where is your case against GT? You are absolutely going to post it right?
Also waiting for you to post whatever thing you are going to do now that it is pasted 11:10PM.
I see you are not logged on the site right now.
Let's hope that you are not delinquent on this.
Perhaps you will log in soon or you are watching but logged out.
Regardless, there are several people waiting on you at this point.
While I agree with the conclusion here, I strongly disagree with the comments on Rafk for now.
For now. That's fine, not the first time someone has disagreed with me at first. Raf is up to some thing and, for now, I'm not sure if it is in the towns best interests. We shall see if that changes or not.
Just in case i forgot in my last post. Unvote : Unvote:
Vote : Xyre
Also, using the possibility of another player being scum as evidence against another player is terrible. Linkages are useless between 2 living players of unknown alignments.
Not sure which two players you are talking about. I see interactions between all three of these players and some of the have the possibility of being coordinated. For now, I can't be sure and I can't say exactly which really are connected but that is how I'm seeing it. For now.
Vote Xyre
-Why? Well, here...
This is when 6:30 occurred:
And this was posted more than 24 RL hours later (AKA after 6:40):
-So, Raf gave us AS after 6:40 and before 6:50.
Now, let's look at Xyre's actions:
-Here, we see that Xyre claims to have investigated Raf AFTER Raf gave us AS. Since Raf gave us AS AFTER 6:40, Xyre must have also investigated Raf AFTER 6:40 and got his results at 6:50, right?
Right.... So, Xyre claims to have received his results on Raf at 6:40, which is BEFORE Raf gave us AS.
Xyre is either lying about when he investigated Raf (he must have received results at 6:50 or later) or he is lying about why he investigated Raf (if results were received at 6:40, it could not have been a reaction to events that didn't happen yet).
LAL. (Of course, Xyre has also been really scummy, and has a claim that could be a mafia role cop, and has repeatedly tried to get us to stop looking for scum in Niv's list (even before HE7 claimed), and has acted really confused about how he could possibly be scum and other things as well).
Fish, to you see any hypocrisy in this post of yours? Probably not as you have probably rationalized in your head what you did.
So... you misremembered your reasons for inspecting Raf? You made up the part about still suspecting him enough for an investigation after he gave us AS?
I don't know about everyone else, but when someone says they forgot why they did something and makes up stories about things they never thought or felt- I've seen them tend to turn out to be lying scum.
how is what Xyre is doing here any different with what you did? First you claimed to have 100% proof I was scum in some information you refuse to post, then when your attempt to push my bandwagon to a lynch stalls you suddenly start back tracking and claiming that the information you had might not be as 100% firm as you thought. Then and only then did you claim to ask for clarification on that information and as it turns out you were wrong.
I’m all for LAL and you are right at the top of that list.
I will also say that the case you have posted against Xyre in very interesting. As a result of me getting Niv to target Raf Xyre was revealed to have been one of the fish who took my bait. You have clearly shown that not only did he take the bait but he also either screwed up the details of why he took the bait or he is lying.
As fond as I have grown to be of you Fish, I have to say that I do agree with you on this. Xyres’ reaction reeks of deception. I don’t know what he is hiding but hiding something he is.
Had Raf. claimed? (I can't remember) Given that there are roles in this game that are not from the TV show, how does this ability let you "fight" such a claim?
This is interesting. In addressing Xyre and questioning him about Xyre’s ability and his targeting Raf, Axe asks if Raf had claimed. I know you outed AS by way of you claiming to have ability results, but I don’t recall you actually claiming Raf. Did you claim? If so would you please point out the post that you did so in?
You are talking like your ability "proves" something. What exactly did you think you were going to learn?
If I understand correctly, the only possible use of your ability is to rule people out from being Terrorists (and this is if we assume that there are/were no Terrorists who were members of CTU). If you got "Not CTU" then Raf. might have been a Terrorist - except he would have just thrown his scumbuddy way, way under the bus. If you got "Yes, CTU" then that would have told you precisely squat about Raf.'s alignment as it relates to the scum group he would be most likely to be a member of.
What good did this do at all?
Interesting, another post questioning Xyre as to why he used his ability and probing for clarification. Seems to be pointing out that there is clearly some disconnect between what Xyre claimed to be doing, what he claimed to be looking for in using his ability on Raf and why he did it.
Okay, that's enough. My original suspicions were correct, but better safe than sorry. I'm now 100% certain HE7 is scum.
I could explain what happened there to cement that fact, but I'd rather not at this point, and I don't think I have to now. -You know I'm town, I know he is scum, that should be good enough for his lynch.
Vote Hawkeye- GG though, I read you as town for a long time.
Also, I am going to call BS on this right now. You COULD explain, but you CHOOSE not to, Mr. Unlynchable Townie? Why on Earth not?
Hint: there no good reason to fail to explain how you know with "100%" certainty Hawkeye is scum. Absolutely no reason at all to be vague and cagey. That's like what you did yesterday with your "maybe I'm not still unlynchable" hinting, and in case you didn't notice, that did not make you look better.
This is very interesting. Not only was Axe working to get information from one player who has been caught in lying to the town, Xyre, but he was also working on the other player who has been shown to have lied to the town, TheFooFish.
I wonder which one of these two it was who felt the attention Axe was drawing to them was potentially dangerous to them. Dangerous enough to get Axe killed.
I’m going to go with my gut here and say that it is Xyre. Not only did he fall for my trap but he dance around while answering
Axe’s questions. He tried to look too conversational and too self deprecating. He either lied about his facts or he screwed up the facts of his using his ability on Raf.
And finally, Raf is trying to minimalize and dismiss the attention on Xyre.
Obviously you can't be referring to Niv's outing of goat, and Niv had nothing to do with AS, so you're now claiming to have got Niv to use his ability on me and that that's in your favour.
Pull the other one, it has bells on.
You do realise that since Axelrod was killed, your line of attack- that you blocked a kill from Kraj or Xyre- is now completely baseless? It's very unlikely either made a kill attempt, which means they both probably targeted me with other abilities, which makes it quite likely that they are as advertised (with a chance that Xyre is a mafia rolecop).
I'll save you some trouble. The bit you want people to go back and look at is Ax saying he thinks you're town.
You're not as sneaky as you think you are
Raffy?
Here now, you don't have to go to all that. I've seen you begging for attention from me for several posts now. Just settle down. I know you're there and I'll probably be posting something about you soon.
I will say your attempts to keep the focus on me is telling, futile and very obvious. It's truely sad to say but you're making Cyan look subtle. Really.
This game was massively annoying for me, cause I screwed up major league. When I replaced into the game, given the lynch pairs that seemed to be accepted, it looked like the best play was to try and get myself lynched whilst at the same time distancing myself from Ande, which is why I refused to post cases, and just generally acted like an ass. I also tried to insult Hawkeyes quality of play, in the hope that he would be more confident the next day, as he seemed fairly confident of Pod+AH. Of course, the massive screwup was that I forgot hawkeye was a roleblocker, and just after doing that I thought I'd pretty much lost the game for the scum. Pretty much my only chance was to try and speed the game through and end the day before HE could say who he was going to block. Luckily Ande pulled off the win, and kudos to him.
I owe you an apology Pod.
I mistakenly credited Alx2 with your very good playing after you replaced Alx2 at the end of the game.
You replaced into a very difficult position. Alx2 was obviously mafia but you were able to take the evolving situation, AH’s poor play, andelijah’s very good play and skillfully contribute to making AH look even more scummy.
I want to say to Jobie that I thought the game was very interesting and seemed very well balanced.
Thanks for running the game and letting me replace in.
Well done mafia, a much deserved victory.
Very good job andelijah. Though I had you as scum I let the poor play of AH the entire end of the game sway me that he might be Alx2's mafia partner.
I am gratified to know I nailed Alx2 spot on though.
Good game really by Alx2 as well, you did very well to tip the suspicion over to AH at the end there. That was skillfully done.
MJM also a good game. I would have hoped that the rest of the town players would have heeded my repeated calls for activity, posting and effort that at the end.
The answer is the same. Once again I have already posted this. Here CP, I’ll do your home work for you, Again.
I appreciate that.
The first part of this statement is ridiculous. Every scum player tries to play as though that are town players. According to you statement what kind of action is a town player supposed to do that the scum would not do themselves in order to appear town like? Are you saying that town players should play in such a way that they come up with an action the scum would not and then hold that as proof that they are townies if they come under session? If that is what you think it is to play as a townie I completely disagree with you. It is my opinion that a town player should play in such a way that they try to catch scum, they try to generate information that the town can then use to analyze actions and reactions of players. I never worry about how my tactics will be viewed by others if I know that I am doing one or both of those things. Frankly I can see why some newer players don’t post more or lurk as it is common for townies who do try to generate action and information to come under suspicion like I am from people who have a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of a townie role. They also can commonly come under suspicion from veteran players who get caught up in misreading the actions and intentions of a player who does try to generate action and information. These players have a problem admitting when they are wrong and by the time they come to realize how wrong they are they have their foot so far in their mouth it is hard or impossible for them to extract it and save face.
Not saying you are lying while you state information that is untrue is lying. You said that I was doing at least two actions that are tells and that I would happily do something as scum clearly implies that you think you know me well enough to make those statements. You also implied that you had some credibility to support those statements which is untrue. You are completely wrong about all three statements and that they have been pointed out you are trying to backtrack away from them.
CP you may try to say that I have not done anything that does not benefit the scum but that is also a skewed view of my actions. I have played in order to try to catch scum and to generate information and actions that will help the town be able to analyze players and find scum. You may try to deny this or try to ignore how may actions help the town but that will become evident and visible. At some point it will no longer be possible to simply say that my actions were misinterpreted as scummy. At some point it will not be possible to simply say that the reasons and answers I have given for my actions are simply lies. When every action I have made is characterized as scummy no matter what I say, it will become obvious that the unrelenting and unreasoning stance to my actions and words is fueled by something other then the intention to find scum.
So I ask you, how should I respond?
When I have already answered, completely truthfully and you ignore my answers, then you re-ask the same questions, how should I respond?
Well, here is how I have decided to respond. I am going to, once again, answer the same questions with the same answers I gave earlier. The truth is the truth and it will not change. I have no control over whether or not you believe the truth but I have hopes that if I keep repeating the truth you might actually realize that you have been getting honest answers all along.
I answered this question when Raf first asked it here I also addressed the same question here
Yes he would. That is what my role is. I know I’m the only one who can come out and say this right now, but once I’m lynched it will be shown to be true.
That’s funny. It did not take me very long to find not one but two very clear examples of me explaining why I did not target anyone before Raf. You know, if I were a suspicious man I’d say you either weren’t looking very hard or that you were trying to spread misinformation.
Ah, now you are going to say you are better at reading me the Raf or Cyan. By all means CP step up to the plate and swing away.
Let’s see, “constant attempt to stay under the radar”, - that ended the second I decided to nail SB. - Foul ball, Strike One.
“he has never made more of an attempt to defend himself than to spit bile at whoever looks at him askance. “ - I have defended myself near constantly against accusations made by Raf, Niv, FFT, Kav and you ever since I posted my role and the actions I have made in this game. I’m doing it in this post. Just because you refuse to accept my explanations does not mean they were not made.
For you to try to spin my posts as not defending myself is ridiculous. Swing and a miss - Strike Two.
“Both of these are general scum tells, and I know that HE7 is consistently guilty of both when he's scum, though he's hardly better as town, which makes things difficult (though it also makes his whole "You don't know how to read me" spiel that he gave Raf and Cyan kinda laughable).” - What is really laughable is this attempt by you to somehow pawn yourself off as having some insight or skill that Raf or Cyan does not. I really don’t know what to say here CP but you are just as wrong as they are. They are just a little more honest about it.
And that’s Strike Three - you are out.
Answered previously at least twice and shown above.
this is a good question and one I don’t remember being asked before.
I kept Raf in custody longer then I originally intended to. I was making an educated guess as to how long it may have been since the last kill to try to best protect Raf at a point when I thought he would be a very likely target of scum attack.
03-11-2008, 04:20 PM arimnaes posted that andelijah and StormBlind had both been killed. Discussion ensued. I knew the kill would most likely not be able to be used again for 3 hours so I waited. I did not know what Raf’s ability was but from his actions relating to catching AS I assumed it was investigatory. I hoped that by waiting I would give Raf an opportunity to use his ability before I put him into protective custody.
03-12-2008, 07:29 PM I sent in my order to take Raf in.
03-12-2008, 07:46 PM my order to take Raf in was confirmed.
03-18-2008, 07:54 AM I sent in my order to release Raf.
03-18-2008, 09:27 AM my order to release Raf was confirmed.
Raf would not be able to use his ability from custody but I did find out he could post. I also wanted to try to keep him in custody long enough to let the scum get their kill back an then waste it on Raf. I apparently miscalculated the game time and real time conversion. To be honest I’m still not sure on the conversion.
CP, you know me so well.
It’s like our souls are one………………. or something.
See above for my thoughts on you needing to prove something.
I agree.
??????
If I can satisfactorily answer the last point? The one about how you are trying to say you know I would do something happily as a scum player?
How can I answer that?
It’s complete fabrication and fantasy on your part.
Look CP and everyone. What are you supposed to do when you are a town player and you come under suspicion?
You are supposed to tell the truth.
I have done that.
Everything I have posted about my role, my actions and my intentions has been completely truthful. It’s all I can do. You can keep asking me the same questions and you will get the same answers, because it is the truth.
Several players keep trying to read into my posts and come up with explanations as to why I have done what I have done, attributing sinister intentions to then and pretending that they have some credibility because they have some insight into how I play the game. They say they know my “tells“. Anyone who is honest and has a memory will know this is not true.
You may not agree with my thinking or reasoning for doing what I have done, but if you look at what I did and what I claim were my reasons, you should be able to see that I am telling the truth.
Play whatever you like. I'd like to play mafia, but no matter what I say you appearently will not even entertain the possibility i have spoken only the truth. Cute remark though.
Isn't it obvious? I'm telling the truth. I have posted nothing but the truth and the only people who will have any real knowledge of that are the mafia. You have gotten so full of yourself and plowed ahead building a case based on nothing. You have an explaination of all my actions that i have supplied which is entirely true. You have read into my words meanings that are not only not there, but completely wrong. It is exactly the same thing Cyan has done so many times before. Since you will not admit that you are wrong you will continue to push this case of yours and the players who are too lazy or too sheep like will follow you.
GT for a long time now has fought your case. I'd like to think that is because he has the intellegence, intuition or just plain guts to stand up to your demagoguery or blind arrogance. The other possibility for him to stand against your bandwagon is that he is mafia nad knows that you are wrong. If this is the case he is taking the chance to cast his support for me and hopes to gain credibility when I am shown to have spoken only the truth.
In either case we will learn a good deal by targetting a player who has positioned himself like GT has.
I've claimed a protection role and no one has counterclaimed me. I have explained exactly how my ability works and I have described exactly how and why I targetted you and Niv. Neither you or Niv have found anything I claimed to be false. You may not be able to confirm every aspect of what i claimed, but think about it. How could I have claimed, in the detail, what I did as a scum player and not have taken a great risk of you or Niv being able to catch me in a lie?
I wish I had a buck for every time I have had to say this. Every word i posted is true and you, Raf, are so wrong it is comical.
It does not matter who Niv checks. The only players i have used my ability on so far are you and Niv. You can direct him to target anyone and the result will be the same. My name will not come up if Niv is telling the truth.
Raf, every tactic and play i have done this game has been designed to find scum. I have described almost every one of them i have done this game and each and every time i have you have tried to completely misrepresent my actions as scummy. So I hope you and everyone else will forgive me when i say I really don't care what you think of my attitude. Your ability to honestly evaluate it and my actions this game is nothing but second rate.
Once again you have missed my meaning, completely.
Sigh, THINK about it Raf. Why would i suggest you might want to reveal your results? Maybe becuase you might get killed before you can reveal them, obviously.
Right now if you are town, you are the perfect foil for the mafia. Hopelessly clueless, too arrogant to admit you are wrong and leading the town in a direction that will get townies killed and buy the mafia time. the problem is that once I'm dead or shown to be telling the truth, a point in the game that is rapidly approaching, you will be either lynched or killed by the scum.
In other words, you are this games Cyan.
I like the idea Raf, as it will show that i did not target either player he chooses to use his ability on. Of the two I would suggest targetting GT, but that is entiirely up to you to deside. That is because it looks like Niv is going to do whatever you think he should do.
So tell me, how do you plan to spin this to make me look bad when Niv returns the results that do not show me targettting anyone he may target?
For some reason you have it in your mind that I'm lying. either that or you know I'm telling the truth, which I am, and you want me out of the way.
Obviously, the consensus has changed about me using my ability again on Niv.
Anyone want to make a suggestion as to who it might benefit the town for me to protect?
Also, Raf, it's been a while since you were released from my custody I'm sure you have geared up your ability again. Found anything the town should know?
If I had claimed vig I'd venture that there would be a discussion of how to best use the ability.
You're so hot to get me lynched, based on nothing but poorly developed conjecture and prejudice, that I think you will try or say almost any arguement to get me lynched while ignoring very important facts about my role.
If so, could you are anyone point it out for me?
Settle down, no need to get upset.
I guess it's a good thing i posted when i did to remind you that you had committed to doing the GT case.
You are welcome.
It would not have looked so good for you to have lied about that too.
It's a good thing that you have so much time to come up with a case on GT now too. Because it is obviously a priority with you or you would not have posted that you would absolutely be posting that case today.
I look forward to reading what you come up with on GT.
I'm sure it will be interesting at least.
Yes, you were right in this one particular incident. As far as I can see you haven’t been right about anything since and I really can’t vouch for anything before. I’d have to actually go back and look specifically to see if you were. Since you have been so completely wrong since outing AS it makes me wonder. If it was your ability that allowed you to be right about AS, then why have you not been able to come up with anything else? If it was just a lucky guess, then that would explain why you haven’t come up with anything and also it would explain why you have been dodging all questions regarding your claim or lack there of.
I’m adding you name to the list of liars in this game Raf. You may not agree with my reasoning but you are lying about me not explaining why I did not protect Niv earlier. I have explained this a couple of times and once , at least, directly to you.
Now, this begs the question, why is Raf lying about me explaining this? I think the answer is that you want to try to keep me from being considered a likely townie. This is the only explaination I can think of that makes your attempts to make me look scummy, make any sense.
simply because you were able to think of the most obvious defense xyre would give does not make the point, that Xyre completely botched the time line up, "extremely nowhere".
It is a significant mistake and well worth noting. As is your defense of Xyre on this point and your positioning yourself just close enough to the middle of this issue as to let you say that you were either for or against a Xyre lynch with little effort.
Way to commit yourself to trying to make an informed decision.
You stated yesterday that you were working on a case against GT today. You said that you were Absolutely going to post that case.
So Raf, where is your case against GT? You are absolutely going to post it right?
Also waiting for you to post whatever thing you are going to do now that it is pasted 11:10PM.
I see you are not logged on the site right now.
Let's hope that you are not delinquent on this.
Perhaps you will log in soon or you are watching but logged out.
Regardless, there are several people waiting on you at this point.
Just in case i forgot in my last post.
Unvote : Unvote:
Vote : Xyre
Not sure which two players you are talking about. I see interactions between all three of these players and some of the have the possibility of being coordinated. For now, I can't be sure and I can't say exactly which really are connected but that is how I'm seeing it. For now.
Fish, to you see any hypocrisy in this post of yours? Probably not as you have probably rationalized in your head what you did.
how is what Xyre is doing here any different with what you did? First you claimed to have 100% proof I was scum in some information you refuse to post, then when your attempt to push my bandwagon to a lynch stalls you suddenly start back tracking and claiming that the information you had might not be as 100% firm as you thought. Then and only then did you claim to ask for clarification on that information and as it turns out you were wrong.
I’m all for LAL and you are right at the top of that list.
I will also say that the case you have posted against Xyre in very interesting. As a result of me getting Niv to target Raf Xyre was revealed to have been one of the fish who took my bait. You have clearly shown that not only did he take the bait but he also either screwed up the details of why he took the bait or he is lying.
As fond as I have grown to be of you Fish, I have to say that I do agree with you on this. Xyres’ reaction reeks of deception. I don’t know what he is hiding but hiding something he is.
This is interesting. In addressing Xyre and questioning him about Xyre’s ability and his targeting Raf, Axe asks if Raf had claimed. I know you outed AS by way of you claiming to have ability results, but I don’t recall you actually claiming Raf. Did you claim? If so would you please point out the post that you did so in?
Interesting, another post questioning Xyre as to why he used his ability and probing for clarification. Seems to be pointing out that there is clearly some disconnect between what Xyre claimed to be doing, what he claimed to be looking for in using his ability on Raf and why he did it.
This was the first post that started pressuring Xyre for information on what he claimed he was doing targeting Raf.
This is very interesting. Not only was Axe working to get information from one player who has been caught in lying to the town, Xyre, but he was also working on the other player who has been shown to have lied to the town, TheFooFish.
I wonder which one of these two it was who felt the attention Axe was drawing to them was potentially dangerous to them. Dangerous enough to get Axe killed.
I’m going to go with my gut here and say that it is Xyre. Not only did he fall for my trap but he dance around while answering
Axe’s questions. He tried to look too conversational and too self deprecating. He either lied about his facts or he screwed up the facts of his using his ability on Raf.
And finally, Raf is trying to minimalize and dismiss the attention on Xyre.
That’s enough for me to Vote : Xyre
Raffy?
Here now, you don't have to go to all that. I've seen you begging for attention from me for several posts now. Just settle down. I know you're there and I'll probably be posting something about you soon.
I will say your attempts to keep the focus on me is telling, futile and very obvious. It's truely sad to say but you're making Cyan look subtle. Really.
I owe you an apology Pod.
I mistakenly credited Alx2 with your very good playing after you replaced Alx2 at the end of the game.
You replaced into a very difficult position. Alx2 was obviously mafia but you were able to take the evolving situation, AH’s poor play, andelijah’s very good play and skillfully contribute to making AH look even more scummy.
Sorry for the mix up.
Well done.
Thanks for running the game and letting me replace in.
Well done mafia, a much deserved victory.
Very good job andelijah. Though I had you as scum I let the poor play of AH the entire end of the game sway me that he might be Alx2's mafia partner.
I am gratified to know I nailed Alx2 spot on though.
Good game really by Alx2 as well, you did very well to tip the suspicion over to AH at the end there. That was skillfully done.
MJM also a good game. I would have hoped that the rest of the town players would have heeded my repeated calls for activity, posting and effort that at the end.
Oh well.