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  • posted a message on Beating a dead horse: Tutors in commander
    Quote from DoubleT »
    Tutors are just basically wild cards which I find unfun in all games not just Magic. It seems they've been printing more tutor hate of late. I just hope they continue to print more playable tutor hate, then the problem will fix itself as tutoring will not be a sure thing.

    I suppose that split cards are kinda like wildcards too...so I don't necessarily agree that tutors are exactly wildcards, but I understand.

    100% there definitely does need to be more search-hate.

    Quote from Buffsam89 »
    Green ramp spells have minimal impact on the game, at least in comparison to other tutors. You aren’t tutoring up a game winning/saving answer with Rampant Growth.

    Green land ramp/tutoring is one of the biggest parts of EDH though.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Beating a dead horse: Tutors in commander

    Great experiment. Now, instead of banning tutors, try banning the cards that player in your group tutor for over and over again. And then have fun.

    If you have a solid play group, doing both of these on separate occasions would be worth your while. See which games are actually more varied.

    I find breaking up people from playing the same win-conditions over and over again leads to much more varied games. Take away tutors for Craterhoof Behemoth and guess what? Craterhoof still ends up winning the same amount of games.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Best 5c None Fetchland Manabase?
    Coalition Relic instead of Ingot?

    I also never like Cataracts because it's essentially a colorless land. And you probably don't have to be playing Unclaimed Territory.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Tutor discussion
    Quote from Impossible »
    Show me a deck that doesn't want Sol Ring and I'll show you a deck that's been built wrong.

    I don't have a decklist for my Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck because I retired it a while back before I started putting stuff online, but I didn't play Sol Ring there because it doesn't produce G or U and I'm very low to the ground. I also have Null Rod and would put the new Collector Ouphe in the deck.

    Here are two decks that I already have put on tappedout:

    I do like input on deck lists, so if you can justify Sol Ring in either of those decks, lmk. I don't have Sol Ring in Sram because I'm trying to cantrip with Wauras. I also don't play Sol Ring in Child, because I'm actively planning to trigger Child of Alara.

    Quote from Impossible »
    No... it's pretty clearly the tutors. I don't care how good Doubling Season is in your deck; when you can't easily tutor for it every game there is less repetition. This feels pretty self-explanatory.

    Well, if Doubling Season wasn't that good, then the super friends player wouldn't tutor for it every time. And then your argument against tutors repetitively tutoring for the same thing each game wouldn't hold. Unless, of course, you still feel like the game is repetitive when a player tutors for different things each game.

    I don't know if you're actually going to look through my deck lists and prove me wrong about Sol Ring. But if you do, you'll notice that my Land.dec is heavy in tutors. Rarely do I get the same card again and again so I know tutoring in and of itself doesn't lead to repetitive games. Tutors themselves are not the root causes of repetitiveness. In my lands.dec, having a Planar Cleansing as a commander leads to the repetitive games.

    Your argument also doesn't hold because tutoring isn't the only way to end up with the same card each game. What if you see the same card dominate or end multiple games, but it was not tutored for? Even when the card(s) isn't tutored for, you're still going to say that the game was a repeat of the previous, right? For instance, in any game that lasts long enough versus a deck with Black, I can reasonably expect an eventual huge Exsanguinate and/or Torment of Hailfire to end the game. And thus, I play (e.g. plan whom I attack) with that possibility in mind. That isn't caused by tutoring, that's just caused by the card being in the 99.

    Even if you play in a game where a player tutored for the same card over and over again, what about all of the actions prior to the tutor being cast? Wouldn't that also mean that the game was essentially the same each time before the tutor as well? How come the game state was the same each time such that the player could/would get the same thing again and again and play the same line again and again? Maybe your games are boring/repetitive because your pod is growing stale or lacks interaction? Maybe the tutor target is so powerful that it doesn't matter what the board state is? I don't think those are issues addressed with the ban of Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, or Imperial Seal.

    Essentially, your only argument that tutoring causes repetitive games is that a player can tutor for the same card each game. And you and Carthage refuse to consider that other things can lead to repetitiveness, despite the glaringly obvious counter-argument that the same player who can tutor for the same card each time can also tutor for something else. When someone brings up other reasons why a game can be repetitive, you just repeat, "no, it's the tutors."

    I don't really need/want to change your mind, I just want my opinion out there as much as anyone else. But if someone is going to complain about Bribery or list Mastermind's Acquisition just to make a point about the perils of tutors, those people should stay far away from any decisions about the banlist.

    If anything, please look through my deck lists and if you feel Sol Ring can actually be justified, let me know. Smile
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Tutor discussion
    Quote from Carthage »
    Competitive decks run a small number of game winning cards, and then a lot of ways to get those game winning cards. Your example of doubling season is actually not a particularly strong competitive play, because for the same mana cost someone might cast ad nauseum or final parting for worldgorger + reanimate and win the game immediately.

    And while it is possible for optimal lists to not include sol ring, that list is VERY small, and those decks are extremely optimized. I would wager that all three of the decks you think are optimal without sol ring should actually be running sol ring.

    But all of this is separate from the actual topic at hand, which is why ban tutors.

    The main reason continues to be that tutors have best targets in most situations, and time and time again people will keep going for the same lines of play instead of adapting to new sets of cards in their hand.

    How come your arguments/posts center around cEDH or competitive? Let's not discuss the banlist exclusively under the umbrella of cEDH. First, cEDH is a nebulous term. Second, cEDH doesn't have a separate banlist apart from actual EDH. If you're going to dismiss every 5 cmc card, just because it's not good enough to stack up again Ad Naus, then what's the point of complaining about Bribery?

    Your main complaint against tutors (repetitiveness) happens have with or without tutors. Because the root causes of repetitiveness aren't tutors.

    For instance, let's consider Doubling Season. If someone tutors for that card every single game in their super friend deck, is the tutor the issue or is Doubling Season? Maybe the repetitive search for Doubling Season is because that card is so far and above every other card in the deck.

    Doubling Season and PW decks are also interesting in the consideration of repetitiveness because many would argue that it's a very repetitive archetype. Even non-green PW decks play out essentially the same. They're all stacks of removal, wrath's, and fogs. So redundant effects are why they're repetitive, not the Demonic Tutor for Doubling Season.

    And let's face it, people actually want their decks to function/play out the same each game. That's why people play redundant effects, consistent mana, and build around their generals. You don't want repetitiveness, but you fail to address the elephant in the room, generals and building around them make decks play out very consistently.

    If you have ever play tested competitively, you'll no doubt realize that many match-ups are predictable. That's just what happens when you run the same 75 vs the other same 75. Games being fun and non-repetitive in EDH owe a lot to how decks interact in unpredictable ways in multiplayer pods. I can build a Brago deck to be consistent and do the same things, but when I bring it to a different pod, the games will play out differently whether I tutor or not (and I do use Recruiter of the Guard to get many different creatures each game). That should be primary source of games being fresh and new. Games don't just become fresh and new because you are ban happy.

    Here are some factors that play into repetitiveness more so than tutors:
    1.) The strength of new threats they print is very high and many players will gravitate towards those same threats. I wished WOTC would stop printing for EDH.

    2.) Many of those new strong cards are legendary creatures. I personally don't like playing against 3-4 Merens at every store, but it seems like other people do. Once again, players will flock to strong threats and when they are commanders, its effect is even more potent on you seeing the same stuff each game.

    3.) With the release of each set, more redundant effects are available and find their ways into decks.

    4.) EDHREC and commander content means a lot of people hear/see/become influenced the same things.

    5.) Generous mulligan rules. You'll see this has had a huge impact in sanctioned magic as well. This is literally a rule that makes games play out more the same each time.

    6.) It has become socially unacceptable to impact the game such that players have anything other than their ideal board-state. You even have huge cry-babies that whine when you remove their Consecrated Sphinx. Apparently, it's even frowned upon to play Torpor Orb because it's "stax." Players actively expect all of their resources to remain intact for an entire game. Well, if you can always plan to have all of your colors and play ahead on curve, then of course games will play out the same each time.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Tutor discussion
    Quote from Carthage »
    Competitive edh decks run TONS of tutors

    Here's a sample of the tutors that are run in a teferi cedh deck, which is mono blue so they don't even go into other colors:
    muddle the mixture
    mystical tutor
    whir of invention
    trinket mage
    merchant scroll
    transmute artifact
    tezzeret the seeker
    inventor's fair

    This is not out of place at all for more competitive decks.

    Your point is that tutors hurt deck diversity but that's not the case.

    Look at the tutors that you listed. Examples like Reshape and Transmute Artifact are very theme specific. In order to run those, you have to skew your deck heavily towards artifacts. I don't see all cEDH being heavily artifact themed. So in a way, those tutors let many types of decks exist. Just like how enchantment tutors can encourage people to build around enchantments and those land tutors encourage people to build lands matter decks.

    And many of the cards you mentioned aren't pure tutors. They are only even run because they can function multiple roles in the deck at the same time. +10 tutors in a deck is a lot of air. And like I said, if you want to build a good deck, it's tough to play that much air. You might start every decklist as 1 Sol Ring and 10 tutors, but that is lazy deck building.

    I have 3 decks without Sol Ring and I'm sure that I built them in optimal ways. In the same way, I never felt compelled to include tutors just to have them. I feel much move compelled to include things like Doubling Season, you know, cards that actually do things.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Tutor discussion
    Quote from Impossible »
    I mean... what colors are we and what is our definition of "tutor"? Enlightened Tutor, Idyllic Tutor, Open the Armory, Steelshaper's Gift, Recruiter of the Guard, Stonehewer Giant, Thalia's Lancers, Plea for Guidance
    Mystical Tutor, Personal Tutor, Fabricate, Trinket/Trophy/Treasure mages, Muddle the Mixture, Tezzeret the Seeker, Whir of Invention, Merchant Scroll, Spellseeker, Long-Term Plans
    Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Grim Tutor, Imperial Seal, Diabolic Tutor, Buried Alive, Rune-scarred Demon, Entomb, Diabolic Intent, Dark Petition, Razaketh, the Foulblooded, Beseech the Queen, Increasing Ambition, Ad Nauseam, Mausoleum Secrets, Tainted Pact, Demonic Consultation, Insidious Dreams, Diabolic Revelation, Mastermind's Acquisition
    Gamble, Godo, Bandit Warlord. Imperial Recruiter
    Green Sun's Zenith, Worldly Tutor, Chord of Calling, Birthing Pod, Tooth and Nail, Eldritch Evolution, Protean Hulk, Woodland Bellower, Summoner's Pact, Primal Command, Natural Order, Fauna Shaman, Survival of the Fittest, Finale of Devastation, Defense of the Heart, Wild Pair
    I got bored before I got to the multicolor ones like Eladamri's Call, but I think I proved the point. There are roughly a bajillion tutors in EDH.

    Depending on the colors and how much disposable income one has access to (I see you, Imperial Seal), it's pretty easy to end up running maybe a dozen tutors. Even if one tries to avoid the "broken" tutors, there are still the "not-good-enough-for-cEDH-but-still-pretty-powerful" tutors like T&N and Diabolic Revelation that can end up warping more casual metas when every game ends with double-tutoring for a combo or something.

    You listed many, many options. And some aren't even worth playing. I love Diabolic Revelation. Honestly, why would anyone bring that up as a problem?
    And, if someone wants to play Wild Pair or Thalia's Lancers? What do you have against them?

    I'm also sure that my question was facetious. I can count to ten and use gatherer as well + not many or any good decks will waste 10 slots on a pure tutors. Using gatherer or edhrec to stuff your deck full of tutors will not build a good deck.

    Also, many of the tutors you list also support weaker decks. There's also a case to be made that tutoring allows weaker decks to compete with stronger decks. and once again, where you might see T&N as a problem card in casual, I see T&N as the epitome of being a Timmy in EDH. Doing powerful things is fun.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Tutor discussion
    Quote from Carthage »
    When you allow tutors, it greatly hurts deck variety.

    Why go deeper into the card pool when you have 10 slots devoted to the best tutors available?

    They also encourage combos, which are innately overpowered by the format, especially multi-tutors.

    It hurts variety in a casual format which makes decks and games go stale earlier than they should.

    People "don't like" tutoring. When in all actuality, they do. In EDH, the card you want to play with the most is always available in every game in the command zone. They don't actually want randomness (i.e. see "mana-screw" and "color-screw").

    This is rarely true. Even in my commander focused decks, at every mana cost there is a spell I'd rather have than my commander.

    I guess it's "rarely true" just because you say so. "10 tutors" is really pushing it. Can you name all ten of them?

    I find that powerful legendary creatures from Commander sets has done more to damage deck variety than tutor cards by far. Demonic Tutor goes into all decks that have black and that has never limited the variety of decks that I see. But Meren merely existing means I see Meren everywhere.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Child of Alara -- Lands.dec
    Quote from FTWRabbit »
    https://i.redd.it/o4je0lbloae31.png What do you guys think about this little fellow? Looks pretty fragile, but it's versitilaty seems pretty powerful.

    I think the effect is too difficult to trigger.

    But they are printing a lot of candidates lately with their "lands matter" push. For example, Elvish Reclaimer from 2020 seems ridiculous.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Tutor discussion
    Quote from Gashnaw II »
    Every now and then when I peek into this subforum, I see posts about tutors being banned (either as an actual topic or more commonly a post on a thread.

    Personally I have no issue with tutors, but every now and then I am in a game where the one tutoring has no clue what they want to look for. This is the only time I have a problem. As they (the player) slow down the game. I run all 10 fetches in my deck, and I may end up taking a few seconds deciding which land I want to fetch (based on what I have on board and in hand.) I also run vampiric tutor, demonic tutor and tooth and nail in my deck. Every game I know what I am looking for when I cast these spells.

    But still I see "ban tutors" Soni want to know why people wish to ban tutors so often. I want to hear the justifications to ban and not ban tutors.

    I can't answer your question, but I'll echo your sentiment. People taking too long is the real problem.

    People "don't like" extra-turns. When in all actuality, they do. Taking an extra-turn is one of the most viscerally enjoyable things in MTG.

    People "don't like" tutoring. When in all actuality, they do. In EDH, the card you want to play with the most is always available in every game in the command zone. They don't actually want randomness (i.e. see "mana-screw" and "color-screw").
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Yarok, the Desecrated
    Quote from FetalTadpole »
    Had another Yarok game yesterday and it was miserable. Nobody had removal the instant the Yarok player cast his commander, so he proceeded to ramp for free with Lotus Cobra, making it pointless to kill Yarok as he had so much mana it wouldn't even matter if he had to cast it again. I eventually scooped in frustration and left the store. I was playing Surrak Dragonclaw all creatures, so no way to deal with Yarok without giving him four ETB triggers. Another player was playing Simic, no board wipes there, even if he overloaded Cyclonic Rift the Yarok player had so much mana he'd just recast his hand giving him even more value with the double ETBs. The Yarok player takes two turns for every turn their opponents get, Yarok doubles every card in the deck.

    I have a personal vendetta against Yarok now, and will go after anyone playing him until one of us is dead or he is banned.

    At least now you know how to deal with Yarok.

    fwiw, It's still worth it to remove Yarok even when the player has a lot of mana because it makes it tougher to have mana to cast Yarok + something else on the same turn.

    If you don't play removal for creatures, don't be surprised when a commander-centric deck takes over. In EDH, you always have +1 card available due to command zone. If you play blue at all, you can always steal opposing commanders. For commander-centric decks, it can be crippling. So trade for a Gilded Drake.

    Since you have a personal vendetta against Yarok, will you finally play Torpor Orb now? Say what you want against "stax" effects...but here's a solution...
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Atla Palani Casual EDH
    Against cards like Bribery or Insurrection, you could use a Homeward Path.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Bribery
    Quote from Carthage »
    But the card I described DOES exist, given specific situations.

    Pretend their is a copy of your deck sitting across from you every game as one of your opponents. Suddenly bribery is pretty much functionally equivalent to "search your library for a creature and put it directly into play"

    A card that reads that for 5 mana would be banned in edh.

    It leads to bad gameplay, having the card strength be so heavily determined by what people sleeved up, ranging from a ban worthy card to a dead card.

    Once again, a hypothetical card in a made up situation. But sure, let's pretend there's mirror match and two blue decks with Bribery at the table. Bribery in that situation is still not ban-worthy.

    Even in the specific case that you mentioned, Bribery still doesn't play like a functional tutor/tinker for the exact card that you want from your deck because,
    1.) A 5 cmc tutor should get you exactly the card you want from your deck. Unless you know your opponents' hands, Bribery isn't a guaranteed tutor for what you want since they might already hold it in their hands.
    2.) And if your Bribery choice gets bounced it doesn't go into your hand. It goes to your opponent's hand. So no, it's not a tutor

    Bribery the way it literally reads in real life will never be banned in EDH. Bribery the way the card plays out in EDH will also never be banned in EDH.

    Bribery does not lead to any worse gameplay than that creature just coming out anyway. There are ways less than 5 mana to cheat mana-costs in commander. Do you complain about every single one of those as well?

    You are being extremely low on Bribery to call it "dead." Lots of cards' playability are determined by what opponents play. That doesn't mean a thing. A Golgari deck has a tough time vs Sword of Feast and Famine than an Azorius deck. That's just a part of the game. It's a feature not a bug.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Bribery
    Quote from Carthage »
    If you could target your own deck with bribery, it would be banned.

    You can get functionally equivalent to that if your opponents are playing similar targets to what you would target with bribery in your own deck.

    So you have a card that would be banned if your opponents are playing certain decks.

    Except, Bribery doesn't say you can target your deck. How does errata'd a card help your argument? You're basically upset about at a card that doesn't exist.

    Any card is more powerful by changing certain words and numbers, you want to ban every card?

    Quote from Cereberus632 »
    Which to be clear is my issue/reason for posting this thread. It isn’t because of bribery the card, exactly but the mindset that lays behind the defense of bribery. Essentially being “don’t run good cards”.

    So I should instead run jank or interchangeable combo pieces. Perhaps every deck I build should have a concentrated theme with no truly good stuff creature that can work outside of that theme? But then what if I happen to really like Collossai or Eldrazi, should I instead run Hand of Emerakul, or the original Collossai which required 7 mana to untap itself?

    Actually, the defense of Bribery is that it's just not a overly powerful card. It's even situational low in power and there's lots of ways to play through it.

    I'd argue that Control Magic on a good threat can be even stronger than Bribery since it's actual card/tempo advantage.

    You can get mad/upset at whatever you perceive to be feel-bad. However, that doesn't mean a card should be banned. Especially when most reasonable magic players would acknowledge that Bribery isn't a feel bad and could list other more pressing cards. If you think Bribery feels ban-worthy, you might also want to have a 200+ card banlist.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Unreleased and New Card Discussion
    Quote from cyberium_neo »
    Interestingly enough, much like the Urza card is who he was before PW, Gerrard here is at the end of his career, so instead of being combat savvy he's the world-saving hero. I understand that they want to deviant from Boros-Combat from now on, but there's no deny that Boros IS very good at combat, I was hoping Gerrard would be better at that spectrum. Of course, Gerrard pretty much reverse the death of your army against board wipe with his own death, that part is definitely Boros.

    That said, boy, Gerrard is a combo enabler, and likely the first of Boros to do that. Red and white have always been good with artifacts but there weren't enough legends with artifact synergy outside of combat, so it's refreshing to see. Memory Jar comes to mind, allowing you to draw 7 new cards to play with, twice in one turn. And... hello, Mindslaver? Greater Gargadon?

    Once again, if he's old, then why does he have first strike? I don't know, make him a 1/4 to show that's he's gotten old and soft. Or give him an ability that let's him tap permanents other than himself to show that he needs help to get around.

    I've been playing for a long time, and it feels like they just messed the character up again. But what else should I expect?
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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