What's great about blue, too, is it can go so well into any other deck. Blue is very commonly splashed into other strategies just for card draw (advantage) or control (tempo). Pretty much any of the above cards (with possible exception of XUU cc'ers) can compliment anything. The draw gets your combos faster, draw can feed your aggro assault as its running out of gas, counter/bounce can give you tempo advantage in any strategy.
Amung many others...
If you're interested in this, check the Primer stickied. Personally, I love Reanimate, and its one of my favorite decks that I have.
I would have to kindly disagree with not being able to do a budget goblins...it can be def be done :D. If I could offer a counterpoint to the other's great advice, its that net/forum decking everyone tends to gravitate to one deck (or a few close variants) that's been shown to be strong in the tourney world. What makes magic fun is how the same thing can be done different ways, and experimenting with 'em is what makes the game so fun. Dink around with various approaches to the same idea (Goblin, here), and see where it takes you. Put cards together, and see what works and what doesn't. Experiment, and experience why certain things you think will work don't always, as opposed to why a forum person might say so. Be the guy who plays around with combos and card interations, and creatively hobbles together the next Rogue deck to dominate the field :D. Perhaps one deck might be more effective that another...it don't mean that other, less expensive ways can't cut it for casual, or might be powerful in their own way. Lakey/Piledriver/Siege-Gang/etc is a friggen strong deck, no doubt (and probably isn't budget possible I'll agree), but there are tons of ways to do the goblin deck, I prefer a Sligh Grenade approach. People have been winning big with $5 Goblin decks since Tempest came out. I'll get off mah soapbox, no offense (honest) to the other experienced folks in here, just tryin' to help the newbie :)...
Now, here's a plenty quick casual deck...just as vulnerable to sweepers as other aggro decks are...you're not going build a tourney strength deck on a budget, and you shouldn't be playing tourney strength decks in casual, friend-tourneys. Truthfully, the deck is strong enough that my playgroup will rarely let me play it (I actually play an Ankh version, with Ankh, Fireblasts and Lightening Bolts...I played a Cursed Scroll version back when Tempest/Rath Block was legal, too).
Super cheap casting costs, 75% 1cc, 25% 2cc. Attack at all costs. If you've made it to turn 5/6, you've lost the game...play it like a suicide deck (balls to tha' wall). A couple notes. Remember that Last Ditch, War Strike and/or Grenade should end the game for ya'...don't be afraid to sac a couple of your little guys...you've got more. This version, the first 3-5 turns should be dealing 8-14 damage with the swarm approach, and the rest can be handled with burn. A more typical sligh approach is more focused on using burn to clear the way for the horde (Sparksmith is amazing there). You can do either, but sac'ing a goblin (to Soothsayer early), or Grenade (later) is okay, you just need to do 20 dmg. Think, that little 1/1 Raging goblin can make do 5 damage with a grenade, or pump everyone else up and add 2/4/6 or more extra damage to your other guys that get through (at instant speed...you can sac in response to blockers :), at least you used to be able to). War strike and Last Ditch tend to be bigger than a LitBolt in this build btw. Veteran Brawlers is an intereseting inclusion, but I love it b/c it could play like a Red Time Walk (much like a second turn Memory Lapse could). Why? B/C, if they have to leave a land untapped in the first few turns, its the same as them not having that land, and is one fewer mana that they could'a used, and is virtually like them losing a turn (imagine if your first land you could never use, or was destroyed...do you think you'd be at a disadvantage). As a newbie, Cadets, Conscripts and Cohorts might feel risky being a little conditional. I've never had a problem playing them with such an agressive strategy, but you could replace them with Goblin Raider, Goblin Balloon Brigade and/or Goblin Patrol at your preference.
I included Goblin Grednade (which is the priciest), at $1-ish, b/c it really helps the deck, but could be ditched. I have a dozen of them, from when I started the game, I'm surprised they cost so much :shrug:. Replace it with Goblin Sledders or Goblin Soothsayers if out of budget.
I've been thinking about a deck like this for years...and haven't ever really gotten around to trying it...mostly b/c I wasn't sure how well it'd work. Here’s what I’d do with your deck (which looks decent from the get-go).
It revolves around land searching cards...and fog effects to keep the beasties at bay while you put together the seismic combo.:) I’ve actually put a lot of thought into this kind of deck over the years…not sure why I never made one :lol:. Reading your build taught me a buncha’ new cards I didn’t know of yet.
This is what I think’d be a fairly tuned/optimized build (at least on paper) for my casual group. I give options for others below :
My first try using deck tags...
Couple things I see (note, I'm a casual player, so these are "casual" kinds of thoughts)...
- You need 4-10 turns to get your nonsense set up. You won't last 10, and lots of damage can be dealt in 4 if you're unprepared. First, fixing your mana curve will go a long ways, but also you need draw to find what you need, and that means more blue. It might seem like it dilutes the deck, but always help you find what you need, and is a neccesary evil with all combo decks, I think. Fortunatly, you’re already running blue, and have plenty of ways to find an island. I think 4 impulse is where its at, and 2-4 Sage Owl. These dig relatively deep into the library to find what you want, and either throw cards to the bottom of the library (if you didn't find what you need, hence getting you closer to what you do), or put your funny business in the right topdecking order to go off when/how you want it to. I'd run 4 impulse, and 4 sage owl. The impulse are, IMHO, KEY here, and one of combo's best friends, very versatile and always go in every combo deck I make :grin3:. Its probably one of my fav cards in the game. Anyways...If you find Sunder or Seismic, throw the other three to the bottom of the deck…this gets you closer to the other one you need. If you find both, order accordingly on the top of the deck and get ready to ROCK, baby. If you find Sunder or Seismic and another blue draw card, keep this stack for the top of your library, put the draw card as the third/fourth card you’d draw. The Owls serve double duty, primarily to find/order your library for optimal topdecking, but also to chump block, buying you that needed time. IMHO, all combo decks work like this…frantically searching for the combo while buying time. I add brainstorm/ponder or careful study in my combo decks if playtesting shows me not finding the combo fast enough.
- I like the use of creatures that serve your Owl-like “find, then chump block” dual purpose. You need good one drop creatures…Diligent Farmhand, Greenseeker, or Veteran Explorer…I like the Explorer (tho’ risky) or Farmhand. Seeker would be better late game, turning dead cards directly into heat...rites of spring would also be the tits here lategame. Two drop is great in the Sakura Elder, or Hermit Druid. Three, I like Yavimaya Elder way over Civic Wayfarer/Borderland Rangeretc...all that stuff, and you can draw an extra card too :o.
- I’d err towards creatures (which can attack for a few dmg, or chump block) more than the land-find sorceries, but its personal preference. I’d also consider Gaea’s Touch (2CC) over the Oracle or (especially) Florishing, IMHO…but to be honest, I’m not sure you’ll need to play many extra land in turn with the creatures to block and the “fog” effects. All you’re really looking for is 6-8 land in play, seismic in play, and sunder in hand. Other notable sorceries (if you want options) are: land grant (0/2CC, 1 land), lay of the land (1CC/1land), Gaea’s Bounty (3CC/2land), Journey of Discovery (3CC 2 land), Kodama’s Reach (3CC (2 land), Rites of Spring (3CC, X(!) land), Seek the Horizon (4CC, 3 lands). Firespout is pretty nice, board control, which kills your guys...but a sac'ing them in response gives you more land (win/win), I like it more than spiraling embers. It'd almost feel like another Sunder :lol:. You might want to ditch the last embers for another firespout or seismic assault based on playtesting.
- With all the land search, you can run lean on land...I think 20 is plenty...and I'll tell ya' why (also, your fetchlands are dead weight in here, get rid of ‘em). All you need is a forest and 1 to start your land searching engine, so 20 should be fine to draw a forest and something else in 9 cards. After that, no land problems. I think 11 forest/4 mountain/5 island work (or combined with the duals as you noted...). As a result, you're a little sensitive to land destruction to your U/R. LD is frowned up (greatly) in my casual group so its not a concern to me. If you have LD woes, go for 6 or 7 mountain, 4 island, 10 forest. You could also run 4 Skyshroud Elf / Birds of Paradise / Urborg Elves...but dilutes the deck further...so I wouldn't. Playtesting would be the decider for me.
- When I thought about building the deck, I didn’t have half the cards picked out before this post (search is a beautiful thing), but the idea was to very quickly ramp up land in the way of proper mana-curved creatues and sorceries, using draw to find your bounce / seismic combo, then clean the board of imposing creatures with the seismic (as needed), then burn the opponent(s). You’ll notice most of the creatures/sorc’s put land into your hand where you want them for seismic (and your embers as well, interesting card btw). The above posters are right about how you play Sunder, you may want to typically play embers (and perhaps on a dangerous T5-7 creature, rather than player) before you bounce the remaining lands. I wouldn’t worry about a spellbook or anything like that, you’re going to discard a nut-load of land to seismic the same turn you sunder anyways, and likely win that turn…who cares about having 7cards or less if you’ve already won?
- Scramble for an island by turn 2, and start draw-digging for the seismic, which you want in play by turn 5-6. If you don’t find it with the first impulse/sage owl, try to get another impulse/sage owl in hand to look again the next turn. By blocking with creatures and fog, you should easily be able to buy time while trying to get seismic assault on the board. Don’t be afraid to take some damage in turns 1-4, and note that your blue draw cards can find/arrange for a fog to topdeck at the right moment in a pinch. Once you get Assault on the board, you can try to do board control with the Seismic/blocking dudeswhile finding your sunder. You should win the turn sunder hits, or be able to pull enough land to win the turn after.
- Against other decks…MUC will be tough, sideboard in some counterspell to protect your Sunder (you’ll likely want 2 counterspells, or 1 counter / 1 mana leak to protect that Sunder, which will ensure your win over the MUC match). More fog effects against aggro. Against pure burn, attack with your creatures (perhaps sideboarding in more land-find creatures and less sorceries), hoping they’ll spend their burn on the creatures rather than your noggin. Prayers are about all you could use against black discard or land destruction :shrug:.
Hope this helps, and I’m sure most of what I said was obvious anyways. I'm an old player (1994, IIRC), but mostly play with the old cards, and only in an OG casual group.
Cheers,
DRum
Could you do infinite damage with a Crucible of Worlds in play? I want it to...but I don't think it could...
Looking at the current ruling, I can't tell if it counts the land as though they were in your hand, or if you can simply play them at any time.
Seismic Assault says discard land, do damage.
Crucible says you can play lands in gy's...so does the land go from graveyard directly into play, or does it go from the gy to your hand, and then is played from your hand like normal (like, at instant speed)? Basically, can you "discard a card" from your graveyard, as though it were your hand...no?
Also, there has to be a way to fit 4 thwart in here...there just has to be...it would help against LD and MUC...and plenty of combo.
DRum
EDIT: Oops, sorry about the double post :(. Gush would also be $ in this deck.
I had a buddy years ago (musta' been 1999'ish) who used some overly complicated infinite mill combo to empty his deck to his graveyard, only to use the digger to place cards from his gy to his (non-existant) library, one at a time...essentially allowing him to order his library however he wanted.
IIRC, he then milled all of us in a turn with Prosperity or something.
Auratog is a great wincon here, esp if you give him trample or flying somewhere in the process (Yay fertile ground)
Also, whip silk or rancor or genju of the cedars (etc) are great to toss to auratog. Autatog eats really cheap enchantment, it goes to graveyard, bounces back to hand, recast for more cards. By T6 or T8, that combo is G: Draw 1or2or3 cards (dep on how many enchantress you have in play).
I've tried replacing yav enchantress with rabid wombat, but I'm not sure I like him better.
Tons of other great enchantments out there: Serra's Blessing, Spirit Link, Brilliant Halo, Armadillo Cloak, Mirari's Wake, Briar Shield, Primal Frenzy, Armor of Thorns, Gaea's Embrace, Fires of Yavimaya(!), etc...
Joiner Adept or Orochi Leafcaller could smooth things out if you wanted to go for a more elf-y/creature based manapool.
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Seismic Assault is always fun with excess lands, too.
Kinda' keeps with your Banefire/burn approach, but changes the flavor a little too.
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Mahamoti Djinn
Gush
Capsize
Impulse (one of my favorite combo getters)
Man-O'-War (if you've never been on the receiving end of this guy, you MUST try him in a deck)
Sage Owl
Thieving Magpie
Deep Analysis
Ray of Command (to be used "defensively" for card advantage, or on occasion...offensively)
Exclude
Undo
Merfolk Looter
Whispers of the Muse (used to be GREAT, now a tad stale, but still good)
Concentrate/Tidings
What's great about blue, too, is it can go so well into any other deck. Blue is very commonly splashed into other strategies just for card draw (advantage) or control (tempo). Pretty much any of the above cards (with possible exception of XUU cc'ers) can compliment anything. The draw gets your combos faster, draw can feed your aggro assault as its running out of gas, counter/bounce can give you tempo advantage in any strategy.
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Animate Dead
Dance of the Dead
Strands of Night
Reanimate
Hell's Caretaker
Diabolic Servitude
Exhume
Amung many others...
If you're interested in this, check the Primer stickied. Personally, I love Reanimate, and its one of my favorite decks that I have.
DRum
Now, here's a plenty quick casual deck...just as vulnerable to sweepers as other aggro decks are...you're not going build a tourney strength deck on a budget, and you shouldn't be playing tourney strength decks in casual, friend-tourneys. Truthfully, the deck is strong enough that my playgroup will rarely let me play it (I actually play an Ankh version, with Ankh, Fireblasts and Lightening Bolts...I played a Cursed Scroll version back when Tempest/Rath Block was legal, too).
4 Raging Goblin (1/1 haste, R, $.10)
4 Frenzied Goblin (1/1, R, R - can be unblock'ble, $.20)
3 Goblin Cadets (2/1, R, Trade ctrl if blocked, $.20)
3 Mogg Conscripts (2/2, R, Can't attack unless 2 others, $.10)
4 Goblin Cohort (2/2, R, Can't attack unless played crea, $.10)
3 Mogg Flunkies (3/3, 1R, can't attack alone, $.15)
4 Goblin Lookout (1/2, 1R, T: Sac Gobbo: All get +2/+0)
4 Veteran Brawler (4/4, 1R, Can't attack if opp has untapped land, $.20)
4 Last Ditch Effort (R, Sac X, deal X dmg, $.20)
4 Reckless Charge (R, +3/+0 haste, $.10)
4 Goblin War Strike (R, Deal X dmg =# of goblins, $.15)
Super cheap casting costs, 75% 1cc, 25% 2cc. Attack at all costs. If you've made it to turn 5/6, you've lost the game...play it like a suicide deck (balls to tha' wall). A couple notes. Remember that Last Ditch, War Strike and/or Grenade should end the game for ya'...don't be afraid to sac a couple of your little guys...you've got more. This version, the first 3-5 turns should be dealing 8-14 damage with the swarm approach, and the rest can be handled with burn. A more typical sligh approach is more focused on using burn to clear the way for the horde (Sparksmith is amazing there). You can do either, but sac'ing a goblin (to Soothsayer early), or Grenade (later) is okay, you just need to do 20 dmg. Think, that little 1/1 Raging goblin can make do 5 damage with a grenade, or pump everyone else up and add 2/4/6 or more extra damage to your other guys that get through (at instant speed...you can sac in response to blockers :), at least you used to be able to). War strike and Last Ditch tend to be bigger than a LitBolt in this build btw. Veteran Brawlers is an intereseting inclusion, but I love it b/c it could play like a Red Time Walk (much like a second turn Memory Lapse could). Why? B/C, if they have to leave a land untapped in the first few turns, its the same as them not having that land, and is one fewer mana that they could'a used, and is virtually like them losing a turn (imagine if your first land you could never use, or was destroyed...do you think you'd be at a disadvantage). As a newbie, Cadets, Conscripts and Cohorts might feel risky being a little conditional. I've never had a problem playing them with such an agressive strategy, but you could replace them with Goblin Raider, Goblin Balloon Brigade and/or Goblin Patrol at your preference.
I included Goblin Grednade (which is the priciest), at $1-ish, b/c it really helps the deck, but could be ditched. I have a dozen of them, from when I started the game, I'm surprised they cost so much :shrug:. Replace it with Goblin Sledders or Goblin Soothsayers if out of budget.
If you want to add a few docets more, Lightning Bolt, Ankh of Mishra (Ankh Sligh), Mogg Fanatic, Goblin Incinerator, Mass Hysteria, Final Fortune, Fireblast (4 FREE damage at the end of the game) will each change the flavor and tweak it better.
Here's a few nice resources:
http://www.magicdeckvortex.com/mdvarticle_primer_sligh_primer.htm
http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=sb20001005a
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=509103
Have fun!
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So does Caltrops, and I think works with your overall theme.
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It revolves around land searching cards...and fog effects to keep the beasties at bay while you put together the seismic combo.:) I’ve actually put a lot of thought into this kind of deck over the years…not sure why I never made one :lol:. Reading your build taught me a buncha’ new cards I didn’t know of yet.
This is what I think’d be a fairly tuned/optimized build (at least on paper) for my casual group. I give options for others below :
My first try using deck tags...
11 Forest
5 Island
4 Mountain
MANA CRITTERS 13
4 Diligent Farmhand
2 Greenseeker
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Hermit Druid
3 Yavimaya Elder
3 Sunder
3 Seismic Assault
1 Spiraling Embers
DRAW 8
4 Impulse
4 Sage Owl
SPELLS 10
2 Firespout
4 Spore Cloud
2 Fog
2 Lay of the Land
2 Journey to Discovery
The mana curve
1 10
2 12
3 14
4 1
5 3
Couple things I see (note, I'm a casual player, so these are "casual" kinds of thoughts)...
- You need 4-10 turns to get your nonsense set up. You won't last 10, and lots of damage can be dealt in 4 if you're unprepared. First, fixing your mana curve will go a long ways, but also you need draw to find what you need, and that means more blue. It might seem like it dilutes the deck, but always help you find what you need, and is a neccesary evil with all combo decks, I think. Fortunatly, you’re already running blue, and have plenty of ways to find an island. I think 4 impulse is where its at, and 2-4 Sage Owl. These dig relatively deep into the library to find what you want, and either throw cards to the bottom of the library (if you didn't find what you need, hence getting you closer to what you do), or put your funny business in the right topdecking order to go off when/how you want it to. I'd run 4 impulse, and 4 sage owl. The impulse are, IMHO, KEY here, and one of combo's best friends, very versatile and always go in every combo deck I make :grin3:. Its probably one of my fav cards in the game. Anyways...If you find Sunder or Seismic, throw the other three to the bottom of the deck…this gets you closer to the other one you need. If you find both, order accordingly on the top of the deck and get ready to ROCK, baby. If you find Sunder or Seismic and another blue draw card, keep this stack for the top of your library, put the draw card as the third/fourth card you’d draw. The Owls serve double duty, primarily to find/order your library for optimal topdecking, but also to chump block, buying you that needed time. IMHO, all combo decks work like this…frantically searching for the combo while buying time. I add brainstorm/ponder or careful study in my combo decks if playtesting shows me not finding the combo fast enough.
- I like the use of creatures that serve your Owl-like “find, then chump block” dual purpose. You need good one drop creatures…Diligent Farmhand, Greenseeker, or Veteran Explorer…I like the Explorer (tho’ risky) or Farmhand. Seeker would be better late game, turning dead cards directly into heat...rites of spring would also be the tits here lategame. Two drop is great in the Sakura Elder, or Hermit Druid. Three, I like Yavimaya Elder way over Civic Wayfarer/Borderland Rangeretc...all that stuff, and you can draw an extra card too :o.
- I’d err towards creatures (which can attack for a few dmg, or chump block) more than the land-find sorceries, but its personal preference. I’d also consider Gaea’s Touch (2CC) over the Oracle or (especially) Florishing, IMHO…but to be honest, I’m not sure you’ll need to play many extra land in turn with the creatures to block and the “fog” effects. All you’re really looking for is 6-8 land in play, seismic in play, and sunder in hand. Other notable sorceries (if you want options) are: land grant (0/2CC, 1 land), lay of the land (1CC/1land), Gaea’s Bounty (3CC/2land), Journey of Discovery (3CC 2 land), Kodama’s Reach (3CC (2 land), Rites of Spring (3CC, X(!) land), Seek the Horizon (4CC, 3 lands). Firespout is pretty nice, board control, which kills your guys...but a sac'ing them in response gives you more land (win/win), I like it more than spiraling embers. It'd almost feel like another Sunder :lol:. You might want to ditch the last embers for another firespout or seismic assault based on playtesting.
- With all the land search, you can run lean on land...I think 20 is plenty...and I'll tell ya' why (also, your fetchlands are dead weight in here, get rid of ‘em). All you need is a forest and 1 to start your land searching engine, so 20 should be fine to draw a forest and something else in 9 cards. After that, no land problems. I think 11 forest/4 mountain/5 island work (or combined with the duals as you noted...). As a result, you're a little sensitive to land destruction to your U/R. LD is frowned up (greatly) in my casual group so its not a concern to me. If you have LD woes, go for 6 or 7 mountain, 4 island, 10 forest. You could also run 4 Skyshroud Elf / Birds of Paradise / Urborg Elves...but dilutes the deck further...so I wouldn't. Playtesting would be the decider for me.
- When I thought about building the deck, I didn’t have half the cards picked out before this post (search is a beautiful thing), but the idea was to very quickly ramp up land in the way of proper mana-curved creatues and sorceries, using draw to find your bounce / seismic combo, then clean the board of imposing creatures with the seismic (as needed), then burn the opponent(s). You’ll notice most of the creatures/sorc’s put land into your hand where you want them for seismic (and your embers as well, interesting card btw). The above posters are right about how you play Sunder, you may want to typically play embers (and perhaps on a dangerous T5-7 creature, rather than player) before you bounce the remaining lands. I wouldn’t worry about a spellbook or anything like that, you’re going to discard a nut-load of land to seismic the same turn you sunder anyways, and likely win that turn…who cares about having 7cards or less if you’ve already won?
- Scramble for an island by turn 2, and start draw-digging for the seismic, which you want in play by turn 5-6. If you don’t find it with the first impulse/sage owl, try to get another impulse/sage owl in hand to look again the next turn. By blocking with creatures and fog, you should easily be able to buy time while trying to get seismic assault on the board. Don’t be afraid to take some damage in turns 1-4, and note that your blue draw cards can find/arrange for a fog to topdeck at the right moment in a pinch. Once you get Assault on the board, you can try to do board control with the Seismic/blocking dudeswhile finding your sunder. You should win the turn sunder hits, or be able to pull enough land to win the turn after.
- Against other decks…MUC will be tough, sideboard in some counterspell to protect your Sunder (you’ll likely want 2 counterspells, or 1 counter / 1 mana leak to protect that Sunder, which will ensure your win over the MUC match). More fog effects against aggro. Against pure burn, attack with your creatures (perhaps sideboarding in more land-find creatures and less sorceries), hoping they’ll spend their burn on the creatures rather than your noggin. Prayers are about all you could use against black discard or land destruction :shrug:.
Hope this helps, and I’m sure most of what I said was obvious anyways. I'm an old player (1994, IIRC), but mostly play with the old cards, and only in an OG casual group.
Cheers,
DRum
Could you do infinite damage with a Crucible of Worlds in play? I want it to...but I don't think it could...
Looking at the current ruling, I can't tell if it counts the land as though they were in your hand, or if you can simply play them at any time.
Seismic Assault says discard land, do damage.
Crucible says you can play lands in gy's...so does the land go from graveyard directly into play, or does it go from the gy to your hand, and then is played from your hand like normal (like, at instant speed)? Basically, can you "discard a card" from your graveyard, as though it were your hand...no?
Also, there has to be a way to fit 4 thwart in here...there just has to be...it would help against LD and MUC...and plenty of combo.
DRum
EDIT: Oops, sorry about the double post :(. Gush would also be $ in this deck.
doublepost merged & warned.
blut
PS anti-spam ftw
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IIRC, he then milled all of us in a turn with Prosperity or something.
It was kinda' neat...
DRum
Also, whip silk or rancor or genju of the cedars (etc) are great to toss to auratog. Autatog eats really cheap enchantment, it goes to graveyard, bounces back to hand, recast for more cards. By T6 or T8, that combo is G: Draw 1or2or3 cards (dep on how many enchantress you have in play).
I've tried replacing yav enchantress with rabid wombat, but I'm not sure I like him better.
Tons of other great enchantments out there: Serra's Blessing, Spirit Link, Brilliant Halo, Armadillo Cloak, Mirari's Wake, Briar Shield, Primal Frenzy, Armor of Thorns, Gaea's Embrace, Fires of Yavimaya(!), etc...
DRum