This thread is intended to discuss all aspects of “very small” cubes. For definition, this includes all cube sizes 270 and below. Based on PMs & other threads, we wanted a thread for “all things micro”, including:
Design considerations (theaters, archetypes)
Card selection for "flexibility & versatility"
Approach to card selection
Constraints based on cube size
Cube Management
Drafting approach/strategy (glimpse/Winston, how to accommodate 2/3/4 players)
Please, during discussion, note or link to your cube size & design constraints (rarity, theme, etc).
As a micro cube-thusiast, I can attest there isn’t a good place to discuss the design/drafting/management of micro cubes. The reasons for a micro cube seem to be many: smaller playgroup, travel/portability ambitions, teaching, interesting challenge (lol). Whatever the reason, this thread is for all things micro-cube. We’ve had a micro cube for a while, immediately upon building it seemed our there were unique aspects compared to our larger cube...others have shared the same.
Threads and discussions come up from time to time about smaller cubes, however they are somewhat infrequent. I suppose this is because there aren’t many micro cubes out there. That said, there’s been a bit more of micro discussion within the last year. And others have shared the difficulty in finding micro-cube info. Thus a thread seemed (to a few of us) a good method to discuss and capture.
As an aside, my group doesn't cube as often as most of you. Shoot, I myself am still trying to figure out better ways of micro-cubing, and wouldn't presume to be an expert. However, after IM's with other micro-thusiasts and other threads, I've started a thread for us to share our experiences, learnings, opinions and approaches.
I’ve had some interesting PMs with fellow MC’ers, and tossed together a list of some topics that could be discussed:
How to cut down from XXX “normal cube size” to “YYY micro cube size”
Good feedback in here already. Besides the 93/94 format, there's also a cutoff to be made at the weatherlight block (which gives you access to mirage tutors, ice age and visions). I've seen a few "classic" cubes, which go thru 6th edition, and play to 6th edition rules.
Another cube is saw went thru rath cycle, and there's plenty of busted nonsense in there. Lastly, a few old school cubes I saw went int to the Urza block. I've considered making and old school, and if I did I'd either do a classic, or go thru Urza. Either way...it MUST be powered
Exactly. It's a top 20 in our 190 card mini-cube. It takes very little effort to abuse, and is easy to cast with a little fixing (and not hard to cast otherwise). And it supports Xu or even Ux tempo, and gives blue more than just a control color.
Staple for us. Something rather extreme would have to occur for us to even consider cutting it.
We love our full-proxy cube. The people who create the superarts and digital alters in the "Make a proxy" and now digital alter threads are incredibly creative and, to my group's eyes, often make a better magic card. We love the way the proxies look, and have had a full-proxy cube for a couple years now. Seriously, these are gorgeous, and to us much preferred to the originals:
IMHO, you made the right call, and was what I would've done as well. Being able to play spells is more important than ramping into cards you can't play. People don't draft land highly enough, anyways.
In addition to what's been mentioned thus far, it seems to be a tier 2 card for the sacrifice-matters archtypes that some larger cubes are supporting. Seems like a flesh carver, carrion feeder or goblin bombardment would like this card as well, and another card for sneak attack to enable (not like snark attack needs a lot of help). Bomb in undying.dec (tho I'm not sure how many people run enough undying to make it an actual thing). And bounce/blink decks could like it to combo on the stack to keep or reuse dudes (crystal shard and the aforementioned resto Angel). Just to pop a couple rec sage, nekrataal, acidic slime, Avalanche rider, or skinrenderer etc would be good card advantage?
I'm not sure anyone would advocate this as a tier 1 card, but could be tier 2 if it could support some archtypes. And of course it's good as a combat trick, which cube doesn't have enough of (according to some).
To quote usman/antknee, sometimes you gotta trY a card to see if it's actually any good. Seems to have enough potential to warrant trying...Has anyone actually tried it in their cube?
It's in our cube, and it's always fun. My group is always interested in fun, as much as strength. And, honestly, hatred always brings good stories. Hatred is always fun for us, and will stay in our cube.
I have 4 word for ya'..."what's your life total?" Lol.
Just my 2¢. We like it.
Agreed to the letter. Arbor elves is probably the best green accelerator with the possible exception of birds of paradise (if you runs fetches & duals...and is still better than llanowar if you only run wild growth/sprawl cards).
I fire/ice is probably better, and I like gilt-leaf because it's more fun :).
How big do you want your cube to be? as small as the other one?
Because there are alot of funny arcetypes and strategies, but some of them might need a certain amount of specific cards and can be parasitic.
When it comes to fun, everyone has other things he prefers. To me cheating/combo archetypes aren't really fun. I'd rather have a combofocused meta with complex boardstates and combat tricks, but thats just my opinion.
You could push some W/u/x Blink and some B/x Sacrifice Archetypes, those are always fun, especially with lots of crazy EtB or deathtriggers. Oh, and I would highly recommend cards that make people think and effects that re like little mini games on their own. Fact or Fiction coes to my mind as a well known exmple.
Howdy,thanks for your thoughts. This cube will be for 4-6 guys, so not as small as the two-person. So for a normal draft 4 players would need 180, and 6 need 270, right? We're more likely to draft with 4 than 6. Given that, I'm not really sure really sure there should be more than 270, maybe 300 at the most. I'd be worried about a combo piece getting left in Un-drafted cards, but at the same time, I don't think Johnny wants to see all of the cards every draft...variability is desireable? Could there be enough options at 270 or 300?
I do know that the group likes interactive cards, and choices. We've got argothian worm, and those kind of cards have been favorites (vexing devil, etc).
Regarding archetypes, I think that blink is good, and sacrifice shenanigans have gotten good feedback. Elvish piper was also a fan fave, though that's not exactly reanimator cheatiness.
Some other ideas that have come up are tribal cubes (kavus, soldiers, zombies, goblins and merfolk.
One guy also found a cube idea where the colors were planes shifted, or something, where white was control, blue was aggro, black ramped...interesting.
I'd start with breaking the singleton rule and start with a different look at something towards what you would see with a draft simulator. Then add in specific engine and mana cards first to create the "base" with things like Prime Time. Then follow up with specific cards that you are a "must have" and then build the glue together through that to achieve those decks.
Sounds complex, but it can work. Just takes time and you might want to construct around a few mechanics first and then gradually shift the Cube upwards and so forth.
Thanks! I'm hearing my group still likes singleton,'so we'll probably stick with it.
I think we're looking for some combo enablers that use cards that are good on their own, and in an actual combo. Do you know where I could go for a list of common combo cards?
I've got some good starting ideas, partially influenced by the linked resources.
Good land and fixing are obviously needed. Land tax seems an easy include.
Regarding specific card choices...I have a gut feeling that card choices should favor cards that are flexible, and either have options (Catastrophe and charms come to mind), or be used in numerous deck building options. For example, could Kiki-Jiki, Mirror BreakerKiki Jiki and pestermite both be useful outside of that combo...maybe? I want to try to minimize cards that are only good in one instance or combo, knowing full that this'll be tricky when trying to support combo. Also, tutors and card selection will be helpful I'm sure, so demonic/vampiric tutor, sylvan library, etc.
I'd love to have a discussion on how much disruption/counters/removal should be involved. It should be needed, but I'm not sure if it should be entirely nixed...
I'm also considering if some reset buttons might be needed to break up curdle sorts of stalemates...
Ideas for potential archtypes:
- Reanimator
- Cheaty like show and tell, eureka, tooth and nail, natural order
- Artifacts (perhaps tinker?)
- 3-5 color decks? Land and fixing would be an important consideration.
- ramp (rite of replication )
- Tokens
- Spells-maters
We've come to the realization that guys in our group are more Timmy & Johnny than spike. Each player in our group has a Timmy or Johhny side, some are both. Our original cube was created not only through info in this forum, but also random search of magic cards.info, discovering "new cards" since exodus (note my sig). Things like sliver queen, dragonmaster outcast and miri cursed. Then revisions had lost some of those unique cards for more standard, and spikier cards. I'm partially to blame as the cube manager and a spike, our cube's primary focus is to be fun, and it's become less so. A few of our players have recently commented that the cube has become stronger and more stale. So, let's make a new cube, the Johmmy/Tinny cube.
The goal of this thread and my request:
- Figure out how to make such a cube
- Brainstorm archetypes and ideas...and eventually card choices
- I think this is the "throw mud at the wall" phase. Get ideas out...some might not stick long-term.
The cube goal is to
- Create a cube where epic, and crazy stories are commonplace.
- Embrace unique, Johnny-centric cards, archetypes, and strategies...including combos, and interesting synergies discovered during deck holding and gameplay.
- Enable the Timmiest of huge plays
Thoughts and considerations:
- We're an old-school group. Cards/archetypes flavor, text, and effects should feel OG, new border or not. No planeswalkers or equipment...perhaps certain abilities or keywords.
- We're driving to Balance aggro, midrange, control...and combo (I'm concerned about this...)
- Decks and cards can and should should be potentially strong...blowouts are cool if they're exciting! (I.e. Upheaval)
- Not purposely exclude strong Spkie cards, as long as they can support Johmmies. Some spike cards likely needed (brainstorm, good land, etc)
- Good tier 1 level cards could be replaced by "similarly powerful but more Johhny" cards (wrath of God vs. planar collapse).
The nice thing about UR Counter/burn is that most of the cards are already in cube, the best two colors (at least in our cube) combined. It's a plenty good deck. I drafted a UR Counter burn deck not long ago...Lightning Bolt, Incinerate, Fire Imp, FLametongue Kavu, Tropical Island, Force Spike, Counterspell, Ancestral, Sower of Temptation, Shackles, Hellkite, etc. It did fine. We haven't added any dedicated "spells matter" cards to our cube, and it still supports UR Counterburn just fine. As noted above, UR counter burn really just plays like a control deck most of the time (in our opinion), although on occasion it grabs opposition and some cheap red critters to take on more of a tempo build. WU control slows the game down until card advantage and control cards seal up the game. Instead, burn does that.
For us, supporting RU Counterburn is really about having enough of the best counters/control and best burn in the cube. Which already happened. The downside, is conters and burn are high sought for any deck running red and blue. You have to allll in, right away. And get them lands.
But are we talking counterburn, or spells matter? There tends to be a bit of overlap between the two.
Or is "spells matter" the same as counterburn?
EDIT: Here's ya' go. Plenty good counterburn deck from my cube. Wouldn't've minded another burn spell, or a burn CIP dude (for capsize/shard), but otherwise looks good. Recruiter has good targets, as does tutor. 4 steal effects. I actually quite like dagger here for draw.
Fwiw, I had a deed scoop the other day. Deed & thragtusk in play. Life totals are 10. Popped deed for 4, got an audible groan, regen'd my boa (I think). Next turn replayed bloodghast and a 2 or 3-drop I'd hung onto, goyf I think. Scooped b/c he knew he couldn't come back.
He didn't scoop upon activation, but as a result of killing his 4 dudes, and my playing around deed.
I've also had the groan when deed shows up, and 2 turns later, knowing I'm ahead, and protected by deed on the board, eventually scooped say "I can't get around that before you win next turn."
Deed is alway brutal, in my experience. Perhaps no balance, but close
To be clear here (in my opinion & experience), there are few decks that deed won't go it. If I'm in b or g already,'I'll splash for it (and how hard is it to splash in g anyway?). Balance is a good analogy, or pox. While a deck can be crafted around those cards to make them rediculous, they can do solid work if they are drawn *just* because you know you have it, and can play around it. Much like balance, it's not difficult to setup a deed play that you'll more benefit from, just in the course of normal play.
I can say with confidence that I (or an opponent) usually win the game the deed resolves. It can:
- reset if you're behind (and be besties with standstill or pod )
- wipe most of their board if you get bigger stuff out and just end the game for them (fave play)
- sit there in play and influence your opponents plays
- break a stalled board.
- keep you ahead of you're the beatdown.
- nearly auto win if used after t5.
- activate it at uncounted able instant speed, in reaction, on the stack
- also be Ina deck with regrowth or e.witness...and deal doubt duty
- even be good in aggro, where you're holding gas in hand and deeding after they stabilize, and turning the heat back on.
It's good early game to kill aggro, or jack-up opponents' early utility plays. Mid game to 3-4-5 for 1. It's great late game to just win. Incidentally, black and green are good at playing big expensive stuff, even if it's curve topper kinda stuff for an agg deck. . The WCS, it gets disenchanted in response to activation (or countered, but then they've spent a counter, and I don't consider that a WCS). If the worst that happens is it takes the opponent 3 turns of careful play, disrupting their plans, just to figure out how to deal with deed...that's a good thing.
Few cards are really scoop-worthy. Deed is. Probably never leaving my cube (and I do have "the smallest of cubes" at 190). Easily the #1 bg card, perhaps top 20 card. And one of the most hate-drafted cards in our group.
Naturally, you have to cater to your group, but if I'm continually being passed deed...I'm continually taking and wrecking games with it.
Please, during discussion, note or link to your cube size & design constraints (rarity, theme, etc).
Threads and discussions come up from time to time about smaller cubes, however they are somewhat infrequent. I suppose this is because there aren’t many micro cubes out there. That said, there’s been a bit more of micro discussion within the last year. And others have shared the difficulty in finding micro-cube info. Thus a thread seemed (to a few of us) a good method to discuss and capture.
As an aside, my group doesn't cube as often as most of you. Shoot, I myself am still trying to figure out better ways of micro-cubing, and wouldn't presume to be an expert. However, after IM's with other micro-thusiasts and other threads, I've started a thread for us to share our experiences, learnings, opinions and approaches.
I’ve had some interesting PMs with fellow MC’ers, and tossed together a list of some topics that could be discussed:
Another cube is saw went thru rath cycle, and there's plenty of busted nonsense in there. Lastly, a few old school cubes I saw went int to the Urza block. I've considered making and old school, and if I did I'd either do a classic, or go thru Urza. Either way...it MUST be powered
Just my ¢2
Staple for us. Something rather extreme would have to occur for us to even consider cutting it.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gDDJTNoHaes/UGfKCzERZ2I/AAAAAAAAACU/p2GxSvoEYNI/s1600/AkromaAngelofWrath-SuperArt.png
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ac/af/22/acaf22ecae577bcd26c5c76c63a1e8c5.jpg
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/309/5/4/magic_the_gathering___young_pyromancer_by_asliceofunagi-d6t4of4.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/fc/cf/6e/fccf6eadf718a666c7dae1261f1cef8c.jpg
So anyways, yeah we support the proxy argument.
I'm not sure anyone would advocate this as a tier 1 card, but could be tier 2 if it could support some archtypes. And of course it's good as a combat trick, which cube doesn't have enough of (according to some).
To quote usman/antknee, sometimes you gotta trY a card to see if it's actually any good. Seems to have enough potential to warrant trying...Has anyone actually tried it in their cube?
I have 4 word for ya'..."what's your life total?" Lol.
Just my 2¢. We like it.
Agreed to the letter. Arbor elves is probably the best green accelerator with the possible exception of birds of paradise (if you runs fetches & duals...and is still better than llanowar if you only run wild growth/sprawl cards).
I fire/ice is probably better, and I like gilt-leaf because it's more fun :).
Howdy,thanks for your thoughts. This cube will be for 4-6 guys, so not as small as the two-person. So for a normal draft 4 players would need 180, and 6 need 270, right? We're more likely to draft with 4 than 6. Given that, I'm not really sure really sure there should be more than 270, maybe 300 at the most. I'd be worried about a combo piece getting left in Un-drafted cards, but at the same time, I don't think Johnny wants to see all of the cards every draft...variability is desireable? Could there be enough options at 270 or 300?
I do know that the group likes interactive cards, and choices. We've got argothian worm, and those kind of cards have been favorites (vexing devil, etc).
Regarding archetypes, I think that blink is good, and sacrifice shenanigans have gotten good feedback. Elvish piper was also a fan fave, though that's not exactly reanimator cheatiness.
Some other ideas that have come up are tribal cubes (kavus, soldiers, zombies, goblins and merfolk.
One guy also found a cube idea where the colors were planes shifted, or something, where white was control, blue was aggro, black ramped...interesting.
Thanks! I'm hearing my group still likes singleton,'so we'll probably stick with it.
I think we're looking for some combo enablers that use cards that are good on their own, and in an actual combo. Do you know where I could go for a list of common combo cards?
Good land and fixing are obviously needed. Land tax seems an easy include.
Regarding specific card choices...I have a gut feeling that card choices should favor cards that are flexible, and either have options (Catastrophe and charms come to mind), or be used in numerous deck building options. For example, could Kiki-Jiki, Mirror BreakerKiki Jiki and pestermite both be useful outside of that combo...maybe? I want to try to minimize cards that are only good in one instance or combo, knowing full that this'll be tricky when trying to support combo. Also, tutors and card selection will be helpful I'm sure, so demonic/vampiric tutor, sylvan library, etc.
I'd love to have a discussion on how much disruption/counters/removal should be involved. It should be needed, but I'm not sure if it should be entirely nixed...
I'm also considering if some reset buttons might be needed to break up curdle sorts of stalemates...
Ideas for potential archtypes:
- Reanimator
- Cheaty like show and tell, eureka, tooth and nail, natural order
- Artifacts (perhaps tinker?)
- 3-5 color decks? Land and fixing would be an important consideration.
- ramp (rite of replication
- Tokens
- Spells-maters
The goal of this thread and my request:
- Figure out how to make such a cube
- Brainstorm archetypes and ideas...and eventually card choices
- I think this is the "throw mud at the wall" phase. Get ideas out...some might not stick long-term.
The cube goal is to
- Create a cube where epic, and crazy stories are commonplace.
- Embrace unique, Johnny-centric cards, archetypes, and strategies...including combos, and interesting synergies discovered during deck holding and gameplay.
- Enable the Timmiest of huge plays
Thoughts and considerations:
- We're an old-school group. Cards/archetypes flavor, text, and effects should feel OG, new border or not. No planeswalkers or equipment...perhaps certain abilities or keywords.
- We're driving to Balance aggro, midrange, control...and combo (I'm concerned about this...)
- Decks and cards can and should should be potentially strong...blowouts are cool if they're exciting! (I.e. Upheaval)
- Not purposely exclude strong Spkie cards, as long as they can support Johmmies. Some spike cards likely needed (brainstorm, good land, etc)
- Good tier 1 level cards could be replaced by "similarly powerful but more Johhny" cards (wrath of God vs. planar collapse).
For us, supporting RU Counterburn is really about having enough of the best counters/control and best burn in the cube. Which already happened. The downside, is conters and burn are high sought for any deck running red and blue. You have to allll in, right away. And get them lands.
But are we talking counterburn, or spells matter? There tends to be a bit of overlap between the two.
Or is "spells matter" the same as counterburn?
EDIT: Here's ya' go. Plenty good counterburn deck from my cube. Wouldn't've minded another burn spell, or a burn CIP dude (for capsize/shard), but otherwise looks good. Recruiter has good targets, as does tutor. 4 steal effects. I actually quite like dagger here for draw.
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Gilded Drake
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Imperial Recruiter
1x Thieving Magpie
1x Thundermaw Hellkite
Artifact
1x Black Vise
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Forcefield
1x Vedalken Shackles
1x Icy Manipulator
Instant
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Burst Lightning
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Mana Drain
1x Capsize
1x Cryptic Command
1x Desertion
1x Chain Lightning
1x Flame Slash
Enchantment
1x Quicksilver Dagger
1x Opposition
1x Treachery
Land
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Volcanic Island
9x Island
6x Mountain
1x Arbor Elf
1x Crystal Shard
1x Flesh Carver
1x Hellspark Elemental
1x Lightning Helix
1x Lingering Souls
1x Lotleth Troll
1x Mother of Runes
1x Novablast Wurm
1x Pestermite
1x Psychatog
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Reparations
1x Savannah
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Sneak Attack
1x Stormblood Berserker
1x Thran Quarry
He didn't scoop upon activation, but as a result of killing his 4 dudes, and my playing around deed.
I've also had the groan when deed shows up, and 2 turns later, knowing I'm ahead, and protected by deed on the board, eventually scooped say "I can't get around that before you win next turn."
Deed is alway brutal, in my experience. Perhaps no balance, but close
I can say with confidence that I (or an opponent) usually win the game the deed resolves. It can:
- reset if you're behind (and be besties with standstill or pod
- wipe most of their board if you get bigger stuff out and just end the game for them (fave play)
- sit there in play and influence your opponents plays
- break a stalled board.
- keep you ahead of you're the beatdown.
- nearly auto win if used after t5.
- activate it at uncounted able instant speed, in reaction, on the stack
- also be Ina deck with regrowth or e.witness...and deal doubt duty
- even be good in aggro, where you're holding gas in hand and deeding after they stabilize, and turning the heat back on.
It's good early game to kill aggro, or jack-up opponents' early utility plays. Mid game to 3-4-5 for 1. It's great late game to just win. Incidentally, black and green are good at playing big expensive stuff, even if it's curve topper kinda stuff for an agg deck. . The WCS, it gets disenchanted in response to activation (or countered, but then they've spent a counter, and I don't consider that a WCS). If the worst that happens is it takes the opponent 3 turns of careful play, disrupting their plans, just to figure out how to deal with deed...that's a good thing.
Few cards are really scoop-worthy. Deed is. Probably never leaving my cube (and I do have "the smallest of cubes" at 190). Easily the #1 bg card, perhaps top 20 card. And one of the most hate-drafted cards in our group.
Naturally, you have to cater to your group, but if I'm continually being passed deed...I'm continually taking and wrecking games with it.