I find Prophet of Kruphix weak on this deck since it has only a few creatures, therefore, they'll always use removal on it.
Into the Wilds is good but i'd run it at max as an 2-of
It has no imediate impact on the board and it's too conditional to run in multiples
Controm MU tends to be a pretty good match and as you said, i'd run a pack of 3-4 Slaughter Game (it also deal with Ruric Thar and Burning Earth) and 1-2 Pithing Needle.
I'm considering running 4 Maze but i think the manabase is too fragile to run 4 colorless sources.
On Sphinx, i like it as a huge draw at late game which also is simply amazing with Elixir of Immortality. But i may exchange it for Urban Evolution and see what happens.
Well, it's basicly a Maze's End control deck. I've designed it considering that the meta will become aggro-heavy and full of Emissary-based decks (hence the number of Angers).
I've playtested it against some brews from my friends and made a total of 7-4 (won Esper, Grixis, Boros Aggro, BWR Midrange, UW Control, Selesnya Aggro, BWG Midrange and lost to RG Aggro, RDW, Jund Midrange and B/G Midrange), i'm still considering which cards run to have an overall better MU against the decks i've lost.
I've tried Omenspeaker instead of Vines but you'd rather have a mana fixer (and something that accelerates your victory depending on the situation) than a draw filter.
Basicly, on my overall tests i see this deck shining against Non-red aggro decks, control decks and some midrange decks (although GBx Midrange looks tough to it) while being weak against BTE-based aggro decks or RDW.
Any suggestions will be welcome.
(NOTE: I've tested a turbofog version as well, but i just don't feel comfortable playing with it since it lacks so many answers and Skullcrack simply screws it)
Ashiok will se play at least on control sideboards, and it'll be a pain against us.
Although I do like the Fog version, i think it lacks answers to cards that simply screws the deck such as Ruric Thar. I may try the fog version but i still do prefer the control one.
That being said, Jace, Memory Adept is a good alt-win con on fog versions.
Well, it's basicly a Maze's End control deck. I've designed it considering that the meta will become aggro-heavy and full of Emissary-based decks (hence the number of Angers).
I've playtested it against some brews from my friends and made a total of 7-4 (won Esper, Grixis, Boros Aggro, BWR Midrange, UW Control, Selesnya Aggro, BWG Midrange and lost to RG Aggro, RDW, Jund Midrange and B/G Midrange), i'm still considering which cards run to have an overall better MU against the decks i've lost.
I've been considering run Omenspeaker instead of Gatecreepers, but the fact that creepers helps my curve is still something that i should consider. I'm also thinking on running a few copies of Dreadbore or Hero's Downfall.
Any suggestions are welcome.
My main issue with Esper is that it has a hard day dealing with Planeswalkers with things other than Detention Sphere /O-Ring and Planar Cleansing, also, its clock is slower which may allow a few decks to recover its clock.
UWR on other hand has a really tough day on dealing with bigger threats such as Thundermaw.
I think that Sphinx's Revelation is too good to not be run in a Control deck, so I wouldn't stick up to Grixis. Also, i have to disagree about how unefficient Supreme Verdict is right now, it just has to be well played at the right moment.
My local store has been into an aggro storm right now, so my Maze's End deck basicly got unplayable there (my last result with it was an miserable 1-4).... Actually, on the last FNM i've seen the following decks:
A ton of RGx Aggro decks (Naya, Jund Aggro, Straight RG)
Some BGx Rock Decks (Jund, B/G Midrange)
Some Bant Hexproof decks
A few UWx decks (Esper Control, UWR Flash, straight UW)
A few rogue decks (Maze, Br Control, Selesnya Tokens...)
And since i have the UWx Flash package (Resto Angel, Snapcaster, Sphinx, Augur, etc.) i decided to run it. But i'd like to know which one would do better on that meta.
- UWR has the advantage of having a faster clock and faster ways to deal with opposing small creatures but struggles against bigger creatures such as Thundermaw Hellkite, on its upside, it has an easier way to deal with Planeswalkers.
- Esper gains advantage on the fact that it has more consistent removals, although most of them are somewhat conditional or are better on an empty board. Its disadvantage is that it runs a slower grindy game and against some decks 2 or 3 turns are really important.
So, i'd like ideas of which deck is better for my meta and which cards you guys recommend for me to play. At my initial idea, for both decks i'd like to run the Resto Angel package and 1 or 2 Aetherling, but i'd understand if it's not a good idea.
i was running a set of think twice back then, but got problems with them, instead of casting this or that, i was think twicing. remember our deck are alwasy a turn late, so relying on terminus on our turn or hard casting terminus is the better option. but you got a point there. id rather have fog effects and let my opponent overcommit all their creats for a sweet sweeper. i havent got any problems running the list. but as you said i was lacking draw effects.
I wanted to buy sphinx revelation for this deck but unfortunately its too costly for me at the moment. you think our deck got a shot post rotation? i love to try your list with spot removal heavy.
hope some more maze end player shares their experience here.
I see your point on wanting your opponent to overcommit the board but skilled players wouldn't overcommit without a backup plan knowing that a sweeper is coming for them. If you don't want to run Think Twice then i suggest Augur of Bolas, it blocks while fetches more fogs effect / sweepers most times. Another card that a few people were talking about on a Turbo Fog list was Gideon, Champion of Justice. If well played, that card itself is a pretty strong wincon by itself (how many decks can still win when having all of his permanent wiped away?) but remember that he is a tricky card and that you need to know WHEN to play it cause there are sometimes where you'll rather Verdict / Terminus your opponent's board than cast Gideon.
Removal-heavy versions tends to have a worse aggro MU (Bant Auras for example becomes a nightmare) but gains consistancy against Midrange decks. Control MU is unaltered since it tends to be an favorabe MU for us. The main advantage I see on this version is being able to deal with painful creatures (such as Hellrider and Blood Artist) more easily.
Most of this deck's issues goes away with Innistrad: Hasty-annoying creatures (Thundermaw, Hellrider, Falkenrath Aristocrat, Strangleroot Geist), Undying and recurring creatures (the only one that comes to my mind that will stay is Voice of Resurgance), Junk Reanimator, Acidic Slime... So i see some potential to this deck post-rotation on both incarnations. But it'll depend of what will come to us and to other decks in Theros, this deck may simply become unplayable if we either get a pretty strong LD or if the format's speed becomes too fast for an slow deck such as Maze's End become playable. With the current cards, I'd say that I expect the deck to be Tier 1.5 at least.
Why would I run a 80 cards deck ?
I used to run Gatecreeper Vine instead of Prophetic Prism, but there were a lot of times that i just were stuck with it and quite a few spells without being able to cast them, I've choose then to run Prism cause it filter mana (And it helps a lot on casting Supreme Verdict on turn 5 i.e.) and cantrips, which gives me more removal.
@ jaytothen
Yeah, this deck basically wins by multiple Maze activations or by having a Crackling Perimeter out. I used to run Aetherling as an alt-win con but it always sounded somewhat too slow for aggro and too easy to get rid on control (this deck wins by playing lands, so any threat you drop WILL be countered).
I haven't playtested Mulch yet, but it probably suffers from the same problem that Vine has: mana issues. I may swap Urban Evolution for it though. I don't really think that the top end of this deck is too high since i can hold the game until then, i might swap 1 Eviction for 1 Verdict but i still think that in most cases Eviction works better although its cmc because of Undying, Voice, Gravecrawler and Boros Charm.
I think that counterspells are too slow for this deck since this deck is, on most times, one turn behind your opponent's deck.
@deanywright
Have you been testing this list ? Is Ratchet Bomb an efficient sweeper on the current format ?
@reisen
I really think that sweepers are better than fog effects as an way to prevent you from taking damage. I'd recommend running more Devastation Tides and maybe even running some Thragtusks which goes well with it. Even Centaur Healer may be a good option since it's a good blocker at early game.
I think your deck lacks more draw spells, cause if your opponent has a lot of creatures and you run out of gas, you're probably dead in one or two turns. I'd recommend Think Twice since you're running Miracles.
I've been running this list with some sucess lately. Different from the TurboFog lists, this one is more focused on pure control, dealing with early threats and estabilishing the board by playing a sweeper. I've choose this one over the TurboFog route for two reasons:
A) I want to try something different from most other lists
B) Turbofog lists simply gets crushed by an army if it runs out of fogs or sweepers. This one may take more early game damage, but at least if it runs out of removals you gain more turns to try to turn the table than you'd get with a Turbofog list.
Control MUs in general are a piece of cake, save for Esper which sometimes can punch us in the face with Jace, Memory Adept and Tamiyo plus having an maindeck hate against me on Nephalia Drownyard.
Midrange decks tends to be an favorable MU except for decks that runs Liliana since she alone can simply crush this deck by either upping her loyalties or using her ultimate.
The aggro MU is something like 40/60. It depends on the speed of the deck (Red-based decks with hasty drops tends to be a pain in the ass) and the number of removals and lands i draw until i can play a sweeper and estabilish the board at my favor.
This deck's worst MU is clearly Junk Reanimator, since it can crush us with Acidic Slime + Resto Angel, plus, most of my removals just buys me a few turns instead of cleaning the board since they can reccur his creatures with Rites of Angel of Serenity
For those who doesn't know the decks: The Aristocrats is a BWR Aggro-Midrange standard deck. It's basically an human aggro deck which has some internal synergies for an optimal use of your cards. The deck also features Cartel Aristocrat and Falkenrath Aristocrat as main beaters and sacrifice outlets. Do you guys think that this kind of deck can be viable on modern ?
Here is an standard decklist just for reference of the deck:
So, i'm interessed on starting to play block constructed and i'd like to know how is the current metagame of the format, by current metagame i'd like to know:
- The most popular decks of the format
- Decks to beat
- Cards that define or that shines the current meta
- Other important informations which you guys believe that it's good for someone who is new to that format.
So, the idea is basically play an usual aggro plan with a few 2-drops and spirit tokens, sac'em when needed and then bring everything back with Servitude. Codex Shredder helps to bring Servitudes back and to speed up the gameplan. Orzhov Charm works as an multi-purpose tool on killing annoying creatures and protecting creatures which you don't want them to die after a block or a removal.
A few ideas i've been thinking about is to include Doomed Traveller and Dryad Millitant as both are good beaters and good blockers. I've been also thinking on putting Silver-Inlaid Dagger, since it works wonders with Cartel Aristocrat which is my main beater.
Into the Wilds is good but i'd run it at max as an 2-of
It has no imediate impact on the board and it's too conditional to run in multiples
Controm MU tends to be a pretty good match and as you said, i'd run a pack of 3-4 Slaughter Game (it also deal with Ruric Thar and Burning Earth) and 1-2 Pithing Needle.
I'm considering running 4 Maze but i think the manabase is too fragile to run 4 colorless sources.
On Sphinx, i like it as a huge draw at late game which also is simply amazing with Elixir of Immortality. But i may exchange it for Urban Evolution and see what happens.
2x Azorius Guildgate
2x Dimir Guildgate
2x Rakdos Guildgate
2x Gruul Guildgate
2x Selesnya Guildgate
2x Orzhov Guildgate
2x Golgari Guildgate
2x Simic Guildgate
2x Izzet Guildgate
2x Boros Guildgate
2x Mountain
1x Swamp
1x Forest
2x Saruli Gatekeepers
3x Far // Away
3x Anger of the Gods
3x Shock
2x Mizzium Mortars
2x Lightning Strike
2x Doom Blade
2x Putrefy
2x Warleader's Helix
2x Supreme Verdict
2x Urban Evolution
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Elixir of Immortality
1x Crackling Perimeter
Well, it's basicly a Maze's End control deck. I've designed it considering that the meta will become aggro-heavy and full of Emissary-based decks (hence the number of Angers).
I've playtested it against some brews from my friends and made a total of 7-4 (won Esper, Grixis, Boros Aggro, BWR Midrange, UW Control, Selesnya Aggro, BWG Midrange and lost to RG Aggro, RDW, Jund Midrange and B/G Midrange), i'm still considering which cards run to have an overall better MU against the decks i've lost.
I've tried Omenspeaker instead of Vines but you'd rather have a mana fixer (and something that accelerates your victory depending on the situation) than a draw filter.
Basicly, on my overall tests i see this deck shining against Non-red aggro decks, control decks and some midrange decks (although GBx Midrange looks tough to it) while being weak against BTE-based aggro decks or RDW.
Any suggestions will be welcome.
(NOTE: I've tested a turbofog version as well, but i just don't feel comfortable playing with it since it lacks so many answers and Skullcrack simply screws it)
Although I do like the Fog version, i think it lacks answers to cards that simply screws the deck such as Ruric Thar. I may try the fog version but i still do prefer the control one.
That being said, Jace, Memory Adept is a good alt-win con on fog versions.
2x Azorius Guildgate
2x Dimir Guildgate
2x Rakdos Guildgate
2x Gruul Guildgate
2x Selesnya Guildgate
2x Orzhov Guildgate
2x Golgari Guildgate
2x Simic Guildgate
2x Izzet Guildgate
2x Boros Guildgate
2x Mountain
1x Swamp
1x Forest
2x Saruli Gatekeepers
3x Far // Away
3x Anger of the Gods
3x Shock
2x Mizzium Mortars
2x Lightning Strike
2x Doom Blade
2x Putrefy
2x Warleader's Helix
2x Supreme Verdict
2x Urban Evolution
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Elixir of Immortality
1x Crackling Perimeter
Well, it's basicly a Maze's End control deck. I've designed it considering that the meta will become aggro-heavy and full of Emissary-based decks (hence the number of Angers).
I've playtested it against some brews from my friends and made a total of 7-4 (won Esper, Grixis, Boros Aggro, BWR Midrange, UW Control, Selesnya Aggro, BWG Midrange and lost to RG Aggro, RDW, Jund Midrange and B/G Midrange), i'm still considering which cards run to have an overall better MU against the decks i've lost.
I've been considering run Omenspeaker instead of Gatecreepers, but the fact that creepers helps my curve is still something that i should consider. I'm also thinking on running a few copies of Dreadbore or Hero's Downfall.
Any suggestions are welcome.
UWR on other hand has a really tough day on dealing with bigger threats such as Thundermaw.
I think that Sphinx's Revelation is too good to not be run in a Control deck, so I wouldn't stick up to Grixis. Also, i have to disagree about how unefficient Supreme Verdict is right now, it just has to be well played at the right moment.
A ton of RGx Aggro decks (Naya, Jund Aggro, Straight RG)
Some BGx Rock Decks (Jund, B/G Midrange)
Some Bant Hexproof decks
A few UWx decks (Esper Control, UWR Flash, straight UW)
A few rogue decks (Maze, Br Control, Selesnya Tokens...)
And since i have the UWx Flash package (Resto Angel, Snapcaster, Sphinx, Augur, etc.) i decided to run it. But i'd like to know which one would do better on that meta.
- UWR has the advantage of having a faster clock and faster ways to deal with opposing small creatures but struggles against bigger creatures such as Thundermaw Hellkite, on its upside, it has an easier way to deal with Planeswalkers.
- Esper gains advantage on the fact that it has more consistent removals, although most of them are somewhat conditional or are better on an empty board. Its disadvantage is that it runs a slower grindy game and against some decks 2 or 3 turns are really important.
So, i'd like ideas of which deck is better for my meta and which cards you guys recommend for me to play. At my initial idea, for both decks i'd like to run the Resto Angel package and 1 or 2 Aetherling, but i'd understand if it's not a good idea.
Thanks in advice!
I see your point on wanting your opponent to overcommit the board but skilled players wouldn't overcommit without a backup plan knowing that a sweeper is coming for them. If you don't want to run Think Twice then i suggest Augur of Bolas, it blocks while fetches more fogs effect / sweepers most times. Another card that a few people were talking about on a Turbo Fog list was Gideon, Champion of Justice. If well played, that card itself is a pretty strong wincon by itself (how many decks can still win when having all of his permanent wiped away?) but remember that he is a tricky card and that you need to know WHEN to play it cause there are sometimes where you'll rather Verdict / Terminus your opponent's board than cast Gideon.
Removal-heavy versions tends to have a worse aggro MU (Bant Auras for example becomes a nightmare) but gains consistancy against Midrange decks. Control MU is unaltered since it tends to be an favorabe MU for us. The main advantage I see on this version is being able to deal with painful creatures (such as Hellrider and Blood Artist) more easily.
Most of this deck's issues goes away with Innistrad: Hasty-annoying creatures (Thundermaw, Hellrider, Falkenrath Aristocrat, Strangleroot Geist), Undying and recurring creatures (the only one that comes to my mind that will stay is Voice of Resurgance), Junk Reanimator, Acidic Slime... So i see some potential to this deck post-rotation on both incarnations. But it'll depend of what will come to us and to other decks in Theros, this deck may simply become unplayable if we either get a pretty strong LD or if the format's speed becomes too fast for an slow deck such as Maze's End become playable. With the current cards, I'd say that I expect the deck to be Tier 1.5 at least.
Why would I run a 80 cards deck ?
I used to run Gatecreeper Vine instead of Prophetic Prism, but there were a lot of times that i just were stuck with it and quite a few spells without being able to cast them, I've choose then to run Prism cause it filter mana (And it helps a lot on casting Supreme Verdict on turn 5 i.e.) and cantrips, which gives me more removal.
@ jaytothen
Yeah, this deck basically wins by multiple Maze activations or by having a Crackling Perimeter out. I used to run Aetherling as an alt-win con but it always sounded somewhat too slow for aggro and too easy to get rid on control (this deck wins by playing lands, so any threat you drop WILL be countered).
I haven't playtested Mulch yet, but it probably suffers from the same problem that Vine has: mana issues. I may swap Urban Evolution for it though. I don't really think that the top end of this deck is too high since i can hold the game until then, i might swap 1 Eviction for 1 Verdict but i still think that in most cases Eviction works better although its cmc because of Undying, Voice, Gravecrawler and Boros Charm.
I think that counterspells are too slow for this deck since this deck is, on most times, one turn behind your opponent's deck.
@deanywright
Have you been testing this list ? Is Ratchet Bomb an efficient sweeper on the current format ?
@reisen
I really think that sweepers are better than fog effects as an way to prevent you from taking damage. I'd recommend running more Devastation Tides and maybe even running some Thragtusks which goes well with it. Even Centaur Healer may be a good option since it's a good blocker at early game.
I think your deck lacks more draw spells, cause if your opponent has a lot of creatures and you run out of gas, you're probably dead in one or two turns. I'd recommend Think Twice since you're running Miracles.
2x Azorius Guildgate
2x Dimir Guildgate
2x Rakdos Guildgate
2x Gruul Guildgate
2x Selesnya Guildgate
2x Orzhov Guildgate
2x Golgari Guildgate
2x Simic Guildgate
2x Izzet Guildgate
2x Boros Guildgate
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Saruli Gatekeepers
3x Merciless Eviction
3x Prophetic Prism
2x Doom Blade
2x Dreadbore
2x Putrefy
2x Mizzium Mortars
2x Cyclonic Rift
2x Far // Away
2x Supreme Verdict
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Urban Evolution
1x Cackling Perimeter
1x Elixir of Immortality
4x Fog
3x Duress
2x Elixir of Immortality
2x Slaughter Games
2x Ground Seal
1x Cackling Perimeter
1x Supreme Verdict
I've been running this list with some sucess lately. Different from the TurboFog lists, this one is more focused on pure control, dealing with early threats and estabilishing the board by playing a sweeper. I've choose this one over the TurboFog route for two reasons:
A) I want to try something different from most other lists
B) Turbofog lists simply gets crushed by an army if it runs out of fogs or sweepers. This one may take more early game damage, but at least if it runs out of removals you gain more turns to try to turn the table than you'd get with a Turbofog list.
Control MUs in general are a piece of cake, save for Esper which sometimes can punch us in the face with Jace, Memory Adept and Tamiyo plus having an maindeck hate against me on Nephalia Drownyard.
Midrange decks tends to be an favorable MU except for decks that runs Liliana since she alone can simply crush this deck by either upping her loyalties or using her ultimate.
The aggro MU is something like 40/60. It depends on the speed of the deck (Red-based decks with hasty drops tends to be a pain in the ass) and the number of removals and lands i draw until i can play a sweeper and estabilish the board at my favor.
This deck's worst MU is clearly Junk Reanimator, since it can crush us with Acidic Slime + Resto Angel, plus, most of my removals just buys me a few turns instead of cleaning the board since they can reccur his creatures with Rites of Angel of Serenity
Comments and suggestions are welcome.
For those who doesn't know the decks: The Aristocrats is a BWR Aggro-Midrange standard deck. It's basically an human aggro deck which has some internal synergies for an optimal use of your cards. The deck also features Cartel Aristocrat and Falkenrath Aristocrat as main beaters and sacrifice outlets. Do you guys think that this kind of deck can be viable on modern ?
Here is an standard decklist just for reference of the deck:
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Doomed Traveler
3 Knight of Infamy
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Skirsdag High Priest
2 Silverblade Paladin
2 Zealous Conscripts
4 Cartel Aristocrat
1 Restoration Angel
4 Orzhov Charm
2 Lingering Souls
Lands(24):
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Godless Shrine
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Blood Crypt
3 Plains
1 Clifftop Retreat
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Tragic Slip
2 Blasphemous Act
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Lingering Souls
1 Mentor of the Meek
2 Rest in Peace
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Skirsdag High Priest
Thanks!
PM'd t_c
- The most popular decks of the format
- Decks to beat
- Cards that define or that shines the current meta
- Other important informations which you guys believe that it's good for someone who is new to that format.
Thanks.
2x Orzhov Guildgate
10x Plains
10x Swamp
4x Cartel Aristocrat
4x Blood Artist
3x High Priest of Penance
3x Knight of Glory
3x Knight of Infamy
3x Skirsdag High Priest
3x Thrill-Kill Assassin
4x Codex Shredder
3x Lingering Souls
2x Orzhov Charm
So, the idea is basically play an usual aggro plan with a few 2-drops and spirit tokens, sac'em when needed and then bring everything back with Servitude. Codex Shredder helps to bring Servitudes back and to speed up the gameplan. Orzhov Charm works as an multi-purpose tool on killing annoying creatures and protecting creatures which you don't want them to die after a block or a removal.
A few ideas i've been thinking about is to include Doomed Traveller and Dryad Millitant as both are good beaters and good blockers. I've been also thinking on putting Silver-Inlaid Dagger, since it works wonders with Cartel Aristocrat which is my main beater.
Thoughts?