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  • 1

    posted a message on libertarianism.
    Are really counting revolutions and insurrections that came from refusing to pay?
    Such as that one in 1776?
    Posted in: Debate
  • 1

    posted a message on libertarianism.
    Quote from VidarThor »
    Oh I am sorry, I did not know the american goverment consisted of one singular man during the nixon days, I missed that memo.
    Really? You're doubling down on this? If the American government had decided that it was legal for men working for the president to break into the premises of and surveil political opponents, then there would have been nothing wrong with what Nixon did?

    Quote from nightwyrm »
    Going about yelling that your optimal solution to an idealized math problem is being violated sounds a lot less catchy...
    That's how the sausage is made.

    Quote from nightwyrm »
    And I somewhat question the universal applicability of an optimal solution to a problem that assumes spherical, frictionless cows (sufficiently intelligent rational actors).
    Sufficiently intelligent rational actors aren't part of the problem or the solution. They're a philosophical fiction used to illustrate that the solution objectively exists. The solution for x2 - 2x + 1 = 0 is x = 1. Any sufficiently intelligent rational actor is going to come to that solution. But the take-home point is that, even if there are no sufficiently intelligent rational actors around, that's still the solution. If that problem comes up when you're trying to build a bridge or fly a plane or whatever, and you use a different value of x, you're not going to do very well. Reality -- nature -- is going to disagree with you. Hence "natural law".

    If you're skeptical about whether this concept applies to human society, fine. We can talk about that. But you're the one who first brought out the term "social contract", so it's important that you understand what that theory actually entails.
    Posted in: Debate
  • 1

    posted a message on libertarianism.
    Quote from VidarThor »
    Because the goverment defines what is teft. ^—^
    I wouldn't commit to that argument if I were you. Makes it impossible by definition for a government to abuse power. See: Louis XIV, Richard Nixon.

    Quote from nightwyrm »
    Libertarians love to talk about rights, especially property rights, as some sort of magical, naturally existing thing. Rights are nothing more than a societal contract. If I'm alone on a deserted island with a man with a gun, I have no "rights".
    Common misunderstanding of social contract theory. Give Hobbes and Locke another look -- especially Hobbes. Rights aren't just any old social contract; they are the optimizing contract. Think of human society as a math problem and rights as the solution. Now, whether or not you want to say that solutions to math problems "naturally exist" is a bit of a semantic question. Certainly they don't possess material existence in the same way you and I do. But whatever you call it, they do have some sort of real and objective status beyond the arbitrary. As with other truths about nature, they are something to be discovered, rather than invented: you can't just guess an answer and expect it to be correct. It is for this reason that Hobbes calls his system "natural law". It is the social contract that a sufficiently intelligent rational actor would agree to, not necessarily the social contract that we do agree to -- just as the solution to a math problem is the one that a sufficiently intelligent rational actor would find, not necessarily what you scribble down in your homework.
    Posted in: Debate
  • 1

    posted a message on Debators of Debate: What are the top decks and formats you play?
    Not a debate. Moved to Magic General.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • 1

    posted a message on Trump Assassinating Political Enemies?
    Troll thread locked.
    Posted in: Debate
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    posted a message on libertarianism.
    Quote from VidarThor »
    If you do not like the subject matters they teach at my universaty what am I to do?
    Think critically. At your university you should not just learn to regurgitate what the professors tell you. You should learn to question what they tell you, to demand their conclusions be supported by concrete facts and evidence, to draw your own conclusions and support them with the same. You say the American Revolution was inspired by French political thought? You can't expect people to believe that based only on your say-so. You can't even expect people to believe that based on your professors' say-so. If you want people to believe that the American Revolution was inspired by French political thought, you're going to have to prove it. Don't just say there's a connection, show it. It's not even really about persuading other people. If you can't show this connection, how do you know it's there?

    Quote from VidarThor »
    I guess we should fire all the professors, and probably the parts of goverment in charge of theese things.
    If they're actually teaching you that events in 1788 occurred before events in 1776, then yes, they absolutely should. But I'm going to give these people the benefit of the doubt. They're not here to defend themselves, and even the craziest profs I know understand how chronology works. So I think it's more likely that the mistake is yours than theirs.

    Quote from VidarThor »
    I was actually hoping to learn something here...
    And I was actually trying to teach you something here. You asked what was up with libertarianism in America, and I answered. But you apparently didn't like those answers and decided to argue with them, as though redefining "freedom" were going to change the reality of American culture. And when you launched into a muddled condemnation of libertarianism and the Constitution which was misinformed on not just random historical facts, but the specific historical facts of which you had already been informed in this thread, I decided it was time for some tough love. If you want to know how libertarians think or what Americans think about libertarianism, ask and I'll be happy to answer. But if you want to say that the Constitution is "outdated", that is not a question but a thesis statement, and I'm going to challenge you to defend it with real, specific, and accurate argument that demonstrates an understanding of the subject.
    Posted in: Debate
  • 1

    posted a message on libertarianism.
    Quote from VidarThor »
    You don't think potensial cultural imperalism is a problem when the Disney movies come? We in Norway take these things quite seriusly, or rather the branch of the goverment in charge of this takes this quite seriusly. When Disney channel launched in Norway NRK made a new channel, NRK 3. This channel is focused on children / youths. They do this to give children a fictional entertainment that more realisticly represent the culture they are growing up in. Instead of representing very american values, and also disneys lack of feminism. Or at least used to, Frozen was a step in the right direction (set in a fictional Norway mind you.)

    Witout having american (or british or japansese) prodused culture saturate the market we are free to produse our own cultural products and distribute among other countries.
    Seriously? We've got a wide-ranging discussion on economics, the military, and the US Constitution, and it's the House of Mouse you decide to focus on? That's really not a great move for you, partially because I probably know more about the Disney animated canon than I do about political history and philosophy, but mostly because it's the single most trivial subject on the table. So while I could mount a spirited feminist/multiculturalist defense of Disney films going back to Snow White, or rib you for your parochialism in happening to like the one movie that's maybe-kind-of-sort-of set in your country... I think we're done here.
    Posted in: Debate
  • 3

    posted a message on libertarianism.
    Quote from MTGTCG »
    I dont want to pay for this overwhelming superiority you speak off... If you want to pay for that then by all means go ahead.
    If you don't want to pay for it then by all means move. If you don't move then you're stealing the service provided by the military without paying for it. And no, you don't get to claim you didn't consent to the service. The United States and its military were here long before you were. If you buy property in America you do so knowing full well what American residency entails.

    Quote from MTGTCG »
    I don't see how a policy of complete neutrality and universal free trade would anger any country thus reducing the risk of conflict.
    And that's kind of the problem. Even before we go into the specific ways this policy might anger other countries, you're resting the security of your country on the assumption that it definitely won't, that everything will always go right. Your planning is based on a best-case scenario, not a worst-case scenario. You're making an investment while ignoring the risk. You're engaging in wishful thinking.

    Now, as for those specific ways other countries might find reason to wage war against you, the first and most obvious is that if everything does go right for you and you get rich off of trade, then you're rich. Attacking rich lands and taking their wealth is one of the oldest reasons for warfare there is. Your invader might just want to plunder you and leave, they might make you a tributary, or they might try to conquer you so they can control and tax this wonderful trade hub directly. That's one reason. Reason two is that your invader is another trading power and wants to shut down your trade, rendering theirs more valuable. States can engage in monopolistic practices just as easily as companies can. Reason three is that in your neutrality you're trading with both sides in a war, and one side decides that your trade is benefiting the other side too much to be allowed to continue unabated. Reason four is that your land is strategically valuable. Reason five is that you're just plain the wrong religion. Reason six... reason seven... I can go on and on. Human beings don't exactly need a lot of excuse to go to war.

    And before you dismiss these scenarios as not likely, remember that, between the two of us, I'm the one drawing his arguments from the historical record, and you're the one repeatedly face-planting into that same record. Not only can I provide examples of all these things actually happening, I can provide examples of all these things actually happening without leaving the freaking Netherlands.

    Quote from MTGTCG »
    I forgot to address your argument against my proposed gambling system of funding the minarchic government: if someone wants to ruin their life by gambling, more power to them, it is not my job to tell people what they can or can not do, and I shouldn't be guilty for allowing them to excersise their free will.
    Washing your hands of moral responsibility for the consequences of your actions is not a good way to convince us that libertarianism is the morally superior system.
    Posted in: Debate
  • 1

    posted a message on libertarianism.
    Quote from MTGTCG »
    Look, if some one ruins their life with lottery or gambling, then it's not my problem and it shouldn't be anyone's problem except that individual's.
    It's your problem if you're directly profiting from their ruin.

    Quote from MTGTCG »
    That isn't my point, my point is that we can probably fund a small government whose only role is national defense and courts with gambling as the government can outcompete the private gambling businesses for obvious reasons and monopolize the industry.
    So the government is more efficient than a private industry now?

    Quote from MTGTCG »
    And look, America spends way too much on its military it spends more than the rest of the world combined. We could cut the annual military budget by 75% and still spend more on the military per year than the second highest spender(China). The US could go without spending money on its military for many years and still be the strongest military power in the world.
    The military is not an area in which you want to spend just a bit more than potential rivals. If the best boxer in the world is only a bit stronger than the second-best boxer in the world, then the second-best boxer in the world wants to challenge him for the title. And even if the best boxer in the world wins that fight, he still leaves the ring bloodied. If he doesn't want to have to fight, he needs to invest in overwhelming superiority.

    Quote from MTGTCG »
    Edit: Also this minarchy I am proposing would be very neutral and isolationist when it comes to foreign policy, and would try to pursue a policy of universal free trade.
    "Isolationist" and "universal free trade" are oxymoronic. Either you've got foreign entanglements through free trade agreements, or you don't.

    Quote from MTGTCG »
    When you aren't upsetting anyone, there is no point in spending ridiculous amounts on the military.
    If you think trading doesn't upset anyone... argh. England. The Netherlands. Venice. Byzantium. History. Read it.
    Posted in: Debate
  • 2

    posted a message on libertarianism.
    Oookay. Reality check for the other side now.

    Quote from VidarThor »
    In universaty (300 democratic culture) we learned that usualy the elite in one country will try to work together with the elite in another country to benefit the two smaller groups, usualy at the cost of the once not in the elite. This often would be private firms running infrastructure. If they can corner a monopoly you have no way to get past paying high prices.
    Can you give a historical example of this happening?

    Quote from VidarThor »
    With no goverment you will have no way to protect yourself from cheap competetive labour from the outside. Every itemn will be imported leaving many jobs absolete.
    It's called comparative advantage. If someone overseas can do my job more efficiently than I can, that frees me up to to another job. More work gets done overall, the economy grows, and everyone benefits. With or without a government, this is a good thing. Failing to recognize that fact is why protectionist policies can hamstring economies. You will note that the biggest protectionist voice in the world right now is that of notorious ignoramus Donald J. Trump.

    Quote from VidarThor »
    Also a lot of tech companies are working on robots who can replace most menial tasks all the way from taxi, uber self driving card, up to doctor diagnostocian, watson who can diagnose cancer better then humans. Cilicon valey are also learning robots to copy regular body movement meaning all labour like making food, cleaning, doing services can all be gone as jobs in 10 to 100 years. This is a problem even with a state, and a big one without it.
    Wait, are you saying that you think an advantage of a state is that it can impede technological progress? (a) No, it can't; and (b) why would we want it to?

    Quote from VidarThor »
    With no free press (that needs finacial backing) it is hard to get information that is true. False news, or newss badly reported would be everywhere. The elites in the country would start regulating the news, shaping the public narative like in dictatorships run countries.
    Do you think the state runs the free press? Do you not know how the free press works?

    Quote from VidarThor »
    Also with no state none will care for the sick.
    This is just flatly untrue. Private hospitals are a thing and historically have been for far longer than state-run hospitals.

    Quote from VidarThor »
    And there is no money in privatising orpheneges.
    Actually, again, private orphanages predate state-run orphanages. They were horrible, but if your argument is that they didn't exist, you're still wrong.

    Quote from VidarThor »
    We in Norway based our constetution on the French ideas (same as you) and also on the American constetution. But we have kept updating it as time goes by. Americans seem so star struck by their cinstetution. I will grant you the founding fathers where ahead of their time, but they are getting more and more dates as time goes by.
    See, now it seems like you're just not paying attention, because you're directly contradicting two basic historical facts that have already been pointed out in this thread:

    (1) The American Revolution predates the French Revolution by over a decade.

    (2) The American Revolution predates the libertarian movement by over a century.

    You're also ignoring the fact, not yet stated on this thread but nevertheless well known and easily verified, that the U.S. Constitution is updated with some regularity.

    And of course, you provide precisely zero concrete examples of ways in which the Constitution is outdated. It's four pages of plain English. If you know what you're talking about, it shouldn't be hard for you to quote a few choice passages which you think illustrate your point.

    Quote from VidarThor »
    If the founding fathers where alive today, nobody would care what they thought in todays political climate.
    That's pretty manifestly not true. Just ask Lin-Manuel Miranda.

    Quote from VidarThor »
    This is where you counter with a snappy one liner to feel superior in the debate. Something like 'Freedom is not free'. This is true. That is why all of the social democratic scandinavian countries are paying as much taxed as we can. Because freedom is not free.
    "Freedom isn't free" is a reference to the necessity of a military to protect the country and its institutions from hostile forces. As a NATO member, Norway's freedom is overwhelmingly subsidized by American defense spending. Even as a percentage of GDP, Norway (like twenty-two other NATO states out of twenty-eight) is spending less than its treaty obligation requires. In short: you're not paying for your freedom; I'm paying for your freedom. You're welcome, by the way.

    So come on, man. If you're going to do snappy, first do your homework.
    Posted in: Debate
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