Charles, while you probably are no longer reading this, I'd like to say that of all the MTGNews loyalists, you're easily the LEAST convincing.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, wait. "MTGNews loyalists"? What the hell is this? Are we going to be called "Tories" next? Come on. This is getting absurd.
We do NOT condone spamming, and have NOT sent people on advertising or spamming raids. I think TKN meant to say what he said a little more suavely. I'm pretty sure he meant that there is absolutely NO way we can stop people from spamming other sites. What he failed to realize is that we can obviously discourage them, but his point is still valid. These people are not acolytes of Salvation, they are merely releasing their OWN pent up anger. The affiliation is non exhistant.
First off, I apologize for now taking a better stance on things between here and MTGnews, such as spammers and everything else. I'm ready as well to take the stance of punishing and banning any members who go there and cause and spam. As has been pointed out, this looks bad upon MTG Salvation, and I believe someone said that it makes ues look like "raving lunatics." (although I wouldn't go that far...)
The Numen, Kuberr rocks the hiznatch in the shiznatch, biznatch!
Needless to say, I support this action 100%.
Quote from urzassedatives »
Um we can trust any admin that isn't Scott or DPC, I would say.
Why not DPC? I ask this out of total ignorance, what did DPC do?
Highroller: We've got enough on our hands. Yes, our community is the same, but the way it's being run is different. Let's face the facts, TNK has done us all a HUGE favor by making this site, and is now keeping it running. He doesn't have the TIME to hunt down and punish the people who spam at news. He has tons to do over here, *ESPECIALLY* since it's a new site. I'm not saying we shouldn't do ANYTHING about it, but recognize that this is, indeed, their problem (in regards to the spamming) not ours. We should try and stop it, yes, but punishment isn't the way to go. Besides, if someone REALLY wanted to spam on MTGNews, chances are they won't leave a direct trail to follow over here. If I were to do it, I'd go to the library, make a dumb account, and spam away. It's not that hard to make it fairly difficult to trace...
My whole point is, yes it is a problem for which we should be *CONCERNED*, but we should not try and bring the hammer down until we've gotten things settled down here. S_S is doing the best he can in 'News to keep it together, and that's what he should be doing. He feels that this is the way to do it, so be it.
And quite frankly, even though we are the community, Raa and S_S are the owners. I'm not saying I like this, but that means that they have to take the flak for it, not somebody else. If the community owned MTGNews, then we could help as a community, but under a dictatorship, the dictator has to keep the minions in check.
So it's their fault people are SPAMing them? That's bull Mike. That's absolute bull. Just because you don't like the management of MTGNews is not an excuse to SPAM the hell out of them. It doesn't matter who's running the site.
Quote from Qwerty »
I will not stand by and let you say we must ban people, I stated my reason's why we wouldn’t (apart from the fact its hard to prove user ids with IPs and even then its iffy).
We could fix the problem by speaking to the individuals, when a child steals a biscuit from a cookie jar do you beat the chilld round the kitchen, no you tell the child that’s was bad and stand him in the corner (still a bit excessive).
People are upset over what has happened, because of this they may to out of character things these are forgivable,
Also we can only do damage control if MTGnews helps us control that damage.
Qwerty
Ok, obviously outright banning is rather draconian, you're right. But I don't see why at least warning said people is out of the question.
Just an honest question, Qwerty, do you really think speaking to the individuals is an effective deterrent? Moreover, what if said individuals choose to ignore you?
I think all of the gamers in the crowd have been exposed to this at one point. Indeed, the definition of RPG has been highly questioned since the phrase was coined. While it goes without saying that such things as Dungeons and Dragons are very clearly RPGs, games such as the Legend of Zelda series or the Diablo series are met with dispute.
I'm here to ask just what exactly is an RPG? I mean, if we were to take it by its literal meaning, "role-playing game", it would leave just about every game in its category. Even platform games such as Mario could technically be considered RPGs as one does assume the role of a character, however two-dimensional (no pun intended). Is there a clear definition anywhere out there of what RPG really means?
Actualy when the mods were chatting on msn, we disscussed having a private word with people (some admins were included) who spammed on the news boards, hence that promted me to make my thread in the Cafe of mtgnews, while explain my reasons for not being as active and saying at the same time that we would try to stop it. I didnt threaten to ban, because A) i didnt have the right, and b) salvation is a fresh start. But what we could/can do is have a word (via pm) with the person and ask then to stop, and then if they didnt we could take action. This is not full proof but its was a friendly gesture.
Qwerty
Qwerty, I don't see how you can say that you don't have the right to ban those people. If we're really going by the "one community, two URLs" policy that rancored_elf implies, then you have full right. These people are SPAMing the community. It matters little whether they're SPAMing it here or there, if someone SPAMs our community then we do not allow them into our community. If we really are against those damaging MTGNews then why can we not apply this to all who damage MTGNews, and not just a select group of people that evoked enough anger to cause people to leave the site?
This makes me sad. You're a good friend and it upsets me to hear you talk like that. I never said that Salvation "never did anything wrong", and I don't think Numen meant to say that, either. I don't have anything against News, I just can't post there because I'm banned. I resigned as admin, and lost my ability to continue as part of that site. I'm still in the community, though. This is the future of that community. Being "loyal" to MTGnews is honorable, but I think some people think it's their duty to go down with a sinking ship. I prefer to simply accept that there are two sites for the community. One is old, one is new. One starts with N, one starts with S. But in the end, we're one community, and some of us post on one "area", some post on the other "area", and some post on both.
What I'd love is for SS to have an unfortunate smelting accident and end up unable to continue destroying MTGnews, and perhaps everybody could just join together, hold hands, and sing kumbaya. I guess that won't happen, though.
Never looking back.
Agreed, both in terms of Charles not continuing to post and the idea of there being two websites for the community. But if I may say so, rancored_elf, I really can't help but agree with Charles that a lot of things I've seen in this forum have gone too far. It seems like a lot of people are losing sight of the fact that while the URL is different, the community is the same. The tolerance advocated in your post is very refreshing, especially coming from the person who seems to have lost the most in this, but a lot of other people don't see that damaging MTGNews is not the way to go.
Quote from CrAzEd MiKe »
But to think that Salvation should punish people for being stupid in 'News seems a bit dumb to me. We all came here because we were tired of the oppression, and if we start punishing people for what they do in 'News, we're following the same path. We may not condone it, we may not agree with it, and maybe we are inadvertently linked to 'News, but ultimately, it's Raa and S_S' forum, not ours. So they have to deal with the problems in there, we deal with what is in here. We may not like the people who jump over to poke more holes in the sinking ship, but that is their decision. It's like trying to get someone arrested for a crime they did in another country... Don't flame me for this or anything because I admit I have no clue how the laws work, but I have the impression that it's the country's responsibility to deal with their crime. Maybe they help other countries, but ultimately, it's their problem.
Same thing here really. We may not condone the spamming and flaming, but it honestly isn't our problem... Are the spams ending up in here? No. How can we clean up MTGNews when we aren't allowed to be a part of it (thanks to S_S' blindness)?
That makes no sense at all. Yeah, it may be Raa and S_S' forum, but it's still our community! As rancored_elf said, our community is not tied to a URL. However, what you and many others fail to realize is that such an idea works in both directions. You claim that Raa and S_S are damaging MTGNews, and yet you don't understand why someone from Salvation damaging MTGNews should be punished? Don't you understand that you're harming the people who choose to continue participating in MTGNews?
Moreover, S_S, for all of his faults, is at least taking this effort to bridge the gap. Yes, he probably is the person that's most responsible for creating the gap in the first place, but if this website was really created to provide a place that is superior to S_S' leadership, which is what the creators claim, then we should reciprocate this effort.
It's not even a matter of question. If we're really going to follow this policy that we are the same community as MTGNews, only with a different URL, then this is a policy that must be instated. Anything less would simply acknowledge that there is a divide in the community, which would deny the reason this site was created to begin with.
We have the right to go and do whatever it is we want to do. If he wants a true representation of the community then yes, there will be a lot of angry people there, and yes, most will want to injure him. Though it is a few weeks away, so some anger will calm down by then.
My point is that you're not the organizer and should not be telling people what to do. It's our community as m8uch as it is yours, and I know you like to pretend to be the king and all, but still, our voices deserve to be heard. Even if they are shouting threats and cursing.
What are you, three years old? You have no right to undermine an attempt for MTGNews to remedy problems internally just because you don't like the management. And no, it's not your community Plastik. You aren't a part of MTGNews anymore. The least you can do is accept it instead of hanging around the front gate harrassing everyone who still remains a part of it.
Can I just make a request here? For those of you who intend to go to this open session just to be idiots and flame S_S, please don't. We're trying to conduct a normal interview with a few representatives from MTGNews asking S_S questions. As Dragon of the Pants said, this may be held on a chat, but if it is in real-life don't go in and disrupt the process. That is the most harmful thing you can possibly do, and the least productive.
Quote from Jim_Dandy »
i still think that the whole "...plowshare your elf." thing is really uncouth.
I have been sampling a few of the posts here and was so appalled I felt forced to register and make this thread.
It seems the majority of people seem to think that on the Subterranean_Spirit vs. rancored_elf issue, things are black and white. This is not true.
Everybody makes mistakes. This includes Subterranean_Spirit, but it also includes rancored_elf. In my opinion, rancored_elf has acted very immaturely in this situation. Conducting a leave en masse was fine and a very forceful move, and mature people, such as JeffVondruska, ended it there. However, rancored_elf decided to post information from the moderators’ lounge, and make angry and insultatory comments about and to Subterranean_Spirit. It is obvious that rancored_elf is very hurt about the way he got treated by his higher-ups, and he has some justification for that; however, repeatedly throwing insults at them does not put his argument is good repute.
rancored_elf: I suggest that you stop coming up with excuses and more libelous comments. If your side is so obviously the right one, as you seem to think, objective statements and facts will speak for themselves.
Most other people: I imagine most people here remember DG, the beloved creator of MTGnews. He had very few enemies. Yet he was constantly away whenever things needed to get done, and he constantly said he would be there and wasn’t. This case is similar. However, there is one crucial difference: DG was respected by the whole staff whereas Subterranean_Spirit isn’t. I advise against deciding on your opinion before you hear the evidence, and blindly jumping on bandwagons simply because a respectable character is at its head. You can find a way to make anything Subterranean_Spirit does demonic, but you can do the same for rancored_elf. You are not right; you are simply agree with the large and loudly-voiced group.
rancored_elf is not God. Subterranean_Spirit is not the Devil. Look at things objectively or look foolish.
I agree. I was actually quite alarmed when I came to this site at seeing the posts that were on here. I admit, the things that S_S has done are not things I agree with, but there's a point where we just have to move on. Some people are just taking it to levels it was never meant to go. There are people who are just mindlessly bashing S_S just because everyone else is doing it, people whom I question were ever part of the MTGNews community in the first place. If we're going to maintain this "one MTGNews community with two URLs" stance, it's going to have to go both ways. You may blame S_S for the divide, and for all I know you could very well be right, but a lot of the things I've seen on this forum will do nothing but perpetuate that divide.
Actually, closing off registration is a common method used when heavy spamming is thought to be on the horizon. It's something we have done before, and yes, I mean even in the days of RE and Jeff, and even farther back to when DG was around. This isn't exactly a big deal.
Exactly. Moreover, I'm really not surprised you were banned, Kijin, seeing as how every single post I've read of yours is the same contentless bashing of MTGNews and S_S. Honestly, none of this is needed. None of this helps the situation.
Hvirfvindr... Hvirilvindifir... Hvr... BOB! Hey! Good to see you!
Maybe this time around I might learn how to spell your name. (Probably not) Either way, a brand new forum to mafia-it-up! Ah, I'm like a kid in a candy store...
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, wait. "MTGNews loyalists"? What the hell is this? Are we going to be called "Tories" next? Come on. This is getting absurd.
I'm very very happy to say that you're wrong.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=12705&postcount=1
Ok, this is the kind of crap that undermines everything. Why the hell not?
The Numen, Kuberr rocks the hiznatch in the shiznatch, biznatch!
Needless to say, I support this action 100%.
Why not DPC? I ask this out of total ignorance, what did DPC do?
So it's their fault people are SPAMing them? That's bull Mike. That's absolute bull. Just because you don't like the management of MTGNews is not an excuse to SPAM the hell out of them. It doesn't matter who's running the site.
Ok, obviously outright banning is rather draconian, you're right. But I don't see why at least warning said people is out of the question.
Just an honest question, Qwerty, do you really think speaking to the individuals is an effective deterrent? Moreover, what if said individuals choose to ignore you?
Yeah, I'll be subbing it up.
I'm here to ask just what exactly is an RPG? I mean, if we were to take it by its literal meaning, "role-playing game", it would leave just about every game in its category. Even platform games such as Mario could technically be considered RPGs as one does assume the role of a character, however two-dimensional (no pun intended). Is there a clear definition anywhere out there of what RPG really means?
Qwerty, I don't see how you can say that you don't have the right to ban those people. If we're really going by the "one community, two URLs" policy that rancored_elf implies, then you have full right. These people are SPAMing the community. It matters little whether they're SPAMing it here or there, if someone SPAMs our community then we do not allow them into our community. If we really are against those damaging MTGNews then why can we not apply this to all who damage MTGNews, and not just a select group of people that evoked enough anger to cause people to leave the site?
Agreed, both in terms of Charles not continuing to post and the idea of there being two websites for the community. But if I may say so, rancored_elf, I really can't help but agree with Charles that a lot of things I've seen in this forum have gone too far. It seems like a lot of people are losing sight of the fact that while the URL is different, the community is the same. The tolerance advocated in your post is very refreshing, especially coming from the person who seems to have lost the most in this, but a lot of other people don't see that damaging MTGNews is not the way to go.
That makes no sense at all. Yeah, it may be Raa and S_S' forum, but it's still our community! As rancored_elf said, our community is not tied to a URL. However, what you and many others fail to realize is that such an idea works in both directions. You claim that Raa and S_S are damaging MTGNews, and yet you don't understand why someone from Salvation damaging MTGNews should be punished? Don't you understand that you're harming the people who choose to continue participating in MTGNews?
Moreover, S_S, for all of his faults, is at least taking this effort to bridge the gap. Yes, he probably is the person that's most responsible for creating the gap in the first place, but if this website was really created to provide a place that is superior to S_S' leadership, which is what the creators claim, then we should reciprocate this effort.
What are you, three years old? You have no right to undermine an attempt for MTGNews to remedy problems internally just because you don't like the management. And no, it's not your community Plastik. You aren't a part of MTGNews anymore. The least you can do is accept it instead of hanging around the front gate harrassing everyone who still remains a part of it.
Does it make a difference?
god child... That was the greatest post I have ever read. If only the world could learn to worship Highroller the way you do.
Kind of like "Subteranal_Spirit"?
I agree. I was actually quite alarmed when I came to this site at seeing the posts that were on here. I admit, the things that S_S has done are not things I agree with, but there's a point where we just have to move on. Some people are just taking it to levels it was never meant to go. There are people who are just mindlessly bashing S_S just because everyone else is doing it, people whom I question were ever part of the MTGNews community in the first place. If we're going to maintain this "one MTGNews community with two URLs" stance, it's going to have to go both ways. You may blame S_S for the divide, and for all I know you could very well be right, but a lot of the things I've seen on this forum will do nothing but perpetuate that divide.
Exactly. Moreover, I'm really not surprised you were banned, Kijin, seeing as how every single post I've read of yours is the same contentless bashing of MTGNews and S_S. Honestly, none of this is needed. None of this helps the situation.
Maybe this time around I might learn how to spell your name. (Probably not) Either way, a brand new forum to mafia-it-up! Ah, I'm like a kid in a candy store...
Discussion #1: What role does humanity have on this planet? Are human beings animals?
I like this. A new forum. It's like we're starting with a blank slate. And what better place to start then were we began?
"... Here I am, at it again."
- The Oracle, The Matrix Revolutions