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  • posted a message on Banned Mafia - Day 1 - Carde Diem
    Quote from Iso »
    @Highroller: The ability part.
    What about it?

    Also, so what you're saying is, this:

    Quote from Iso »

    Sure. Why are you ignoring the fact that Highroller is probably a Neutral once a certain death threshold per each/any alignment is reached? Because that's exactly what I read his most recent role spew as.
    Totally believeable, but the ability I claimed isn't? Confused

    Although I will agree with the part about so many lurking. According to the post counter, we have 135 total posts, in which Bur has 9 posts; Axelrod, rezombied, and MOOS12 all have 6 posts; and Cantrip has 4 posts. Everyone else has 10 or more.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Banned Mafia - Day 1 - Carde Diem
    Quote from ganderin_dan »
    You're throwing so many variables into play that don't need to belong. The mafia have knowledge of a group of roles. They can mold their fake claims around that collective knowledge and adjust their existing roles, if necessary. Given that this is role madness, they don't need to care what other, similar roles exist. "Role madness" is an automatic out to the counterclaim.
    No, it's not. Have you constructed games of this type? I have. These are some of the first questions you answer when you plan them.

    This is a 12 person game. There are only so many roles that can exist, and we don't know whether the mafia all have a common theme to their roles, or if how much they know about this, or how the game is constructed thematically. All of these are factors in claiming.

    Also, I think it's a touch nieve to assume that there are going to be a lot of stock roles in this setup, given what we've already seen (types, colors, graveyards). The range of claims, I expect, will be quite wide, and as a result, trying to catch mafia in a fake claim will be even more difficult than you seem to be assuming.
    That collapses under any amount of thought. The easiest game for the mafia to fake claim is one with vanilla towns. Every dimension you add becomes that much harder. This has numerous dimensions: card name, card type, color, ability, flavor, and potentially different ban lists. The mafia not only must keep track of all of these, they need to figure out what pattern the mod set up.

    Once again, one of the most rudimentary questions a game mod must think of when creating a Magic-themed mafia game is whether or not there's going to balance with regards to color or not. I set up a game in which there were an equal number of players represented among all colors. Is that the case here? Or is it just grab bag? If so, did Wuggles choose the cards based on who'd fit the roles he'd laid out already? Did he take cards that were iconic banned cards like Black Lotus and make roles around that? Or is it a bit of both? These are the most elementary questions a game designer must answer.

    You're saying the mafia definitely has the answer to all of these questions. I don't see how that's possible. They have three data points. You're presuming that from this they know all they need to know about all 12 roles to produce plausible claims that cannot be seen through without any possibility of them slipping up. Again, not seeing how that's possible.

    Not to mention information gained by the town as time moves on will increase much more rapidly, given 9 roles against 3, which would make it much easier to actually catch slipping scum with later claims. Confirmable actions.
    Once again, we have people advocating a Day 3 claim. If you're advocating a Day 3 game, or even a Day 2 claim, then there's zero reason we wouldn't benefit far more from a Day 1 claim. If you're against any mass claim at all, then I completely disagree, but it's at least consistent. But the idea of stalling a claim benefits no one but the mafia. The people who have the most to lose are the mafia, who immediately lose all advantages and are forced to react on the spot with very limited information. If I were mafia, I would be opposing a Day 1 claim adamantly.

    Not to say I think one strategy is better than the other, I just see merits to both.
    What do you mean, "Not to say I think one strategy is better than the other"? How can you not think one strategy is better than the other? You have to have an opinion on that.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Banned Mafia - Day 1 - Carde Diem
    Quote from ganderin_dan »
    I think you're neglecting two major issues with mass claiming. One, scum should've had false claims figured out basically immediately in a role madness setup, if they weren't even provided for them preemptively.
    That makes zero sense. The mafia couldn't have false claims figured out alright, because they don't know what's actually in the game.

    Like, the mafia would have to be insanely ballsy to claim a doctor or inspector day 1 in a game with only 12, so to be safe, they'd have to claim obscure roles. But how obscure? And what, specifically, would they claim? And what if they are forced to claim something, and there's someone with an ability like that in the game? I have more than one ability. This amplifies the difficulty of plausible roleclaims tremendously.

    There's also the thematic component to this game. Is there a common theme which would link all the mafia roles, or not? What about color and type?

    You have to think about this from a design aspect. When Wuffles created this game, how did he create it? Because you could go any number of ways. You could just put your favorite/iconic banned cards in. OR you could plan it out so there's some sort of rhyme or reason with regards to representation. Example: in a 12 person game, which is of course divisible by six, you could put 2 cards of each color of mana. Did Wuffles do this?

    What about with card type? Is there a rhyme or reason to how many creatures, artifacts, spells, and lands we have?

    What about which banlist he chose from? Is there a rhyme or reason to that, or is it just from whatever?

    We have variables to consider here. You're acting like the mafia must know all of this information already. How? Did Wuffles give them a checklist of every single role and ability in the game with their role PMs? How would they know all of this already?

    Two, scum can take substantial advantage of having a road map of who to kill/block as the result of a mass claim.
    As I said before, the worst case scenario seems to be they'd know exactly who's the doctor and who's the inspector and will kill accordingly. In addition to the fact that we could very well lose the inspector during day 1 or day 2 anyway via nightkill, this still leaves us with one confirmed town or mafia tomorrow via the inspector, and the resultant information from the mass claim will greatly augment our ability to find mafia.

    Again, the mafia benefit from the town's confusion, and from an environment where they can skate under the radar. This forces them out into the open and make claims on the fly, which is the worst case scenario for the mafia.

    Ultimately, the two of you are just yelling theory back and forth at each other
    I'm yelling at the entire town. You have a gold mine underneath you, and all I'm hearing is people talking about how maybe they'll continue sitting on it.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Banned Mafia - Day 1 - Carde Diem
    Quote from vezokpiraka »

    Firstly, if I see you talking about a third party again I will seriously ignore anything you post
    Well if you're going to provide an incentive...

    And secondly, I'm not really sure why you are so against a day 3 mass claim. It is completely different from a day 1 mass claim with it's pros and cons.
    The differences are that the mafia have two more days to coordinate and talk, there are 4 more dead roles for them to scrutinize when making false claims, and four less people who could catch them in a counterclaim. That's it.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Banned Mafia - Day 1 - Carde Diem
    Me: I think we should mass claim Day 1!

    "No, that's a horrible idea! It would hurt the town and help the mafia!"

    Me: Ok, so what's your Day 3 plan?

    "Mass claiming."

    Me: Wait, what? Why would you want to mass claim Day 3 then?

    "Because it would provide us the information we need to lynch the mafia and not lose the game."

    Me: ... So, why wouldn't we do that Day 1 then?

    "No! That's a terrible idea!"

    Freaking seriously...

    TheRealStinkyJoeTerry: Boy, that's a bang-up job you did there with that analysis, Terry. My only notes are to next time take longer to write it and to put less effort in.

    Iso: Which part makes no sense?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Banned Mafia - Day 1 - Carde Diem
    Quote from Iso »

    Sure. Why are you ignoring the fact that Highroller is probably a Neutral once a certain death threshold per each/any alignment is reached? Because that's exactly what I read his most recent role spew as.
    ... How the hell did you get that?

    The correct answer is no, that's not how my role works, nor did I claim anything close to that. I throw goblins into graveyards. When I die, two goblin cards of my choice will go into the graveyard, and they can be either town, mafia, or neutral, my choice.

    @Highroller: I wouldn't worry about that
    I feel like I should though.

    Also, if it's your last game, why are you lurking?

    Quote from vezokpiraka »

    Also highroller: And you won't get the reason why I think a massclaim on day 1 is bad until I'm dead or the game ends.
    Then don't give us any crap about how you've already addressed anything. You haven't. And your cagey attitude is precisely why it's in our best interest to claim.

    Unless we're all fine with pretending that an environment in which everyone just flies under the radar without scrutiny ISN'T the best possible scenario for the town. Seriously, it's like watching a group of people try to argue that the best way to keep mold and vermin out of an apartment is to go ahead and make it warm, moist, dark, and throw garbage around.

    Quote from Cantripmancer »
    @Highroller: How many games have you played (or read) where a D1 mass claim occurred, and how many of them proved advantageous to town?
    I don't remember how many of them actually happened, as almost all of the games I've played (save for, like, two) were on the MTGNews Forum, which no longer exists. However, I cannot recall a single game in which a mass claim was detrimental to the town. In many times, it allowed the town to easily spot a mafia, particularly when the mafia slipped up during a claim.

    Highroller is fun and interesting. His insistence on a massclaim is unusual. What's problematic is his misreading of things, and I'm trying to figure out if it's intentional. For example, his answer to me is "scum can already kill us". Well, duh. They might be able to kill us faster.
    I highly doubt that for the same reason I doubt the existence of a serial killer, it would be completely imbalanced. In a 24-person game, maybe, but it's 12 people. We have a three-days-to-not-die time limit normally.

    Quote from ganderin_dan »

    @Highroller I'd say Vez's 70 wasn't contradictory. He thinks it's a bad idea for this specific setup, but if an individual thinks it would do more benefit than harm for their role to be in the open, he wouldn't think negatively of them for claiming.
    You can't be totally against claiming unless someone claims in which case that's cool, I don't have any problems. That's contradictory.

    Do you have reads at this point that are not based on massclaiming, besides GF? - I'm getting bad vibes from Iso.

    Quote from Axelrod »
    @Highroller: Not to get totally side-tracked on a point of game theory, but the whole D1 mass-claiming strategy is hardly as open and shut as you are suggesting. There are any number of ways that it could backfire badly in the town's faces, depending on the set-up. Which we don't know. Could it work out great? Sure. But again, we don't know. And we pretty much can't ever know in advance.
    Dude, let's be real here: You're a mafia, the town agrees to mass claim, you're up to claim, what's your reaction to this situation?

    Because I would be... I'll say defecating, bricks. I'm put on the spot, I don't know what to do, a wrongfully thought out claim equals a big neon sign that I'm mafia.

    Like, and this is just a teeny tiny example, but I was thinking about it. What I do not care for about your claim is that, as it appears, your role does nothing in and of itself. You have claimed a role that is, at best, a role that facilitates someone else's role. By filling up our "graveyard" with corpses which these other roles may then presumably use for...something. Aside from the fact that this seems suspect to me purely from a game design standpoint, what it also means is that if the scum eliminate the role that uses these corpses, you are a waste of space (as far as role ability goes, not as a human being, of course). They also nerf the role that uses corpses by killing you, so like a 2-for-1 for them (although your claim seems to mitigate this at least a little in that you still put bodies there even as you die). This also ignores the possibility that is the the Mafia who get a benefit out of these corpses (and if you think that's crazy since "you're town" and it makes no sense for Town to have a role that helps the Mafia, you are not thinking creatively enough).
    I mean, I don't disagree with any particular point here. I will add that I wasn't the one who came up with the role.

    A few questions: are you deciding what Gobin goes to that graveyard?
    Only when I die. Otherwise it's Mon's Goblin Raiders, and always town-aligned.

    Your initial claim seemed to suggest that you got to pick, but are you also deciding if the corpse is labeled as "Town" "Mafia" or "Neutral?" That doesn't seems to make any sense, but is the Mod. then doing it after you tell the mod. what Goblin you are recruiting? On what basis? Randomly? That would seem very strange to me as well.
    Every day before dawn, I send a Mon's Goblin Raiders, Town-aligned, into the graveyard. You'll see one such example in the graveyard right now.

    When I die, I send two goblins into the graveyard of any name (they'll be Goblin Gardeners, because I think the flavor text is funny) and any alignment (town, mafia, or neutral) to the graveyard with me.

    At this moment, I think you are at the very least being misleading about this claim and/or leaving something out. Which you might have a reason to do as a Town, but is not making me inclined to trust you very much.
    Sounds like goblin envy to me.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Banned Mafia - Day 1 - Carde Diem
    Quote from Grapefruit21 »
    @Highroller yeah I'm poking at things as they come up, it's called scum hunting.
    It is fishing to trying to get us to direct our suspicions toward each other while you stay in the background.

    As for your plan it's bad. It assumes the numbers advantage will overcome the targeting advantage scum gain.
    And we're supposed to pretend like we won't get a targeting advantage. Because that's how this works.

    Quote from vezokpiraka »
    @highroller: Firstly, I don't really know where you got the idea I'd be ok with mass-claiming day 2. I'm ok with a massclaim at the earliest on day 3 if we haven't caught any scum. Otherwise I'd prefer it being pushed as far as possible.
    Now in this, I am in the wrong, and I sincerely apologize. I confused a post of Grapefruit's with a post of yours.

    Quote from Grapefruit21 »

    That said I suspect you're right about two and the standard consensus is too anti claim. Especially in heavy PR games like this. I'm not in favor of a D1 mass claim here (or almost ever), but I think D3 and sometimes D2 claims are usually correct.
    So my apologies. This further reinforces my vote of Grapefruit.

    But talking generally, about other games, not this one, a mass claim day 2 forces scum to also claim actions and might catch them in a contradiction with a much higher chance than simply botching a claim. I also don't believe that scum could be so clueless and not to claim something at least passable on day 1.
    This is ridiculous. The mafia have less information to work with on a day with no one dead than one a day with two people dead, and far less than on a day with four people dead. That's basic common sense. We hit the mafia on the absolute worst time today. Saying this day is worse than Day 2 or Day 3 is baseless.

    So please stop with this useless idea that there might be third parties in this game as it's mod confirmed they aren't.
    All I know is that I have the ability to create neutral roles. I will rule nothing out with regards to other neutral roles existing.

    Secondly, I take offence that you are accusing me of hounding rezombified.

    I don't care is not an answer to the posed question. I didn't ask you "how do you feel about people voting you?", but "why".
    Either say that you don't know why people are voting you, even though I was asking for an educated guess or say that you don't care enough to answer my question.
    If you're going to demand an answer to a completely pointless question, then don't get offended when someone points out that you're making demands. If the boot fits...

    Now I don't really know what's your problem, but I am not going to respond to baseless accusations that I've already talked about in other posts.
    What you haven't done is give any basis for why a mass claim would harm the town more than the mafia. Still waiting on that, btw.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Banned Mafia - Day 1 - Carde Diem
    So, let's talk numbers.

    We have 12 people in this game. General ratio of town to mafia is 3:1. Meaning about 9 towns, 3 mafia. There's the possibility of a serial killer in this game, but I think it's more likely there's one of those neutral roles with an alternative win-condition that leaves them winning and the town and mafia fighting for second, given the game size.

    As it stands, let's assume 9 towns:3 mafia. Assuming the towns are unsuccessful at lynching a mafia each day, and the mafia successfully kill a town each night, we lose Day 4. So we have to lynch a mafia in the next three days, or else hope for a successful doctor protect at least one of those nights.

    Once again, the smart play here, the one that gives us the optimal chance of lynching mafia, is to go down the list of players, either in ascending numerical order and descending numerical order, and all claim. This is the best chance of catching a mafia in a lie, and the best chance to assess who are the most likely mafia candidates.

    Let me remind you also that this is the scenario that is the absolute worst case for the mafia to be in: being forced to claim not knowing what roles are actually plausible claim positions, without the ability to coordinate with fellow teammates, and without having any dead people to reference when making up claims.

    So, for those of you who are against it, what is the alternative strategy here? Mass claiming Day 2 or 3, when the mafia already have a sizable number of people to scrutinize, and less towns to worry about who might potentially counterclaim them? Is that our play? Give the mafia more time to formulate their lies, and give them time to coordinate their stories, instead of separating them and giving them no time to think? Is that wisdom?

    What's the alternative strategy to that? Blind guessing?

    Quote from Grapefruit21 »
    Anyway if you think I'm obviously mafia why are you voting Vez over me? Your case on him boils down to he is scum that is afraid to go against the flow on claiming.
    I'm fine with lynching either of you, actually. But that's acceptable to me. Unvote, vote Grapefruit21.

    My case on him, incidentally, is not because he is afraid to go against the flow on claiming. It's primarily because of this dumb interrogation of rezombied for his crime of not giving a crap about two random-ass votes day one - of which you are also a part of, fancy that. This is, of course, in addition to his statement last page of how he's always willing to go against the flow on claiming, only to switch it this page to him being categorically against claiming, unless someone actually does it, in which case he's fine with it. This is, of course, in addition to him saying he's totally fine with a Day 2 massclaim, which is the same exact damn thing as a Day 1 massclaim, except that the mafia have more time, information, and coordination to think of false claims.

    But I think it's pretty blatant you're mafia. Repeated passive-aggressive maneuverings of suspicion, all the while avoiding doing anything that might bring you too much attention? Yeah, I'd bet my bottom dollar on you being mafia.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Banned Mafia - Day 1 - Carde Diem
    Anyone else read Grapefruit as obviously mafia?

    Quote from Cantripmancer »
    @Highroller: I don't feel like Vezok's mass claim liking and partial claiming but not wanting to mass claim is nearly as significant as you're making it out to be.
    Read his posts. He's saying he advocates a day two claim but not a day one claim. That makes exactly ZERO sense for the town. If there is a day to mass claim, the most advantageous one is right now, when the mafia has the least amount of information to draw false claims off of. Once again, all that changes from a day two mass claim versus a day one mass claim is the mafia has two more deaths to scrutinize, and an entire night to plan false claims. This hits them when they are the most vulnerable.

    I'd rather not just hand the scum a list of high and low priority targets.
    Realistically, what is the worst case scenario here? That the doctor and inspector are outed? We outnumber the mafia about 3:1 in a 12 person game. Worst case scenario, the mafia kill the inspector night two after killing the doctor night one. Either way, we get one confirmed town or confirmed mafia by the inspector, and we tremendously increase our chances of lynching a mafia during either one of those two days. Remember that it's a 12-person game. The mafia become significantly weakened with each member loss.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Banned Mafia - Day 1 - Carde Diem
    Highroller, trivial example of how a massclaim can backfire if the mod intentionally designs the game to counter massclaims: imagine mafia has an ability that says "destroy target blue card" that fails if the target isn't blue. If we all claim the mafia knows exactly how to hit blue cards. The massclaim has given them free extra kills.
    We shouldn't mass claim because the mafia might gain the ability to kill us?

    The mafia already have the ability to kill us! Guess what? WE OUTNUMBER THEM! By about 3:1. The reason why townspeople lose is that they don't know who to vote for, which is why they need information. A mass claim gets us that.

    Dislike that "catch" on vezok. It's not a hard contradiction.
    Of course it is. He said he supports mass claims, but then doesn't support a mass claim, which makes no sense. He says he supports a Day 2 mass claim, but not a Day 1 mass claim, which makes no sense. He says he is totally against people claiming day 1, but is also ok with people claiming day 1, which makes no sense.

    They are hard contradictions. You cannot have P and also not-P, that's basic logic.

    Quote from vezokpiraka »
    I'm not really contradicting myself. I am against a mass claim in this game. Like if we voted on a massclaim I would vote again, because I believe it will hurt us more than help us. So far I have explained my position and my argument on that position.
    You not only haven't explained that even slightly, but you ignored my post entirely when I asked you to explain that earlier.

    Explain how that would hinder the town more than help us. Especially since you even said you'd support a day 2 mass claim over a day 1 one. Literally the only difference between those two is that the mafia have two dead bodies, and in turn dead roles, to scrutinize and a full night of communicating between each other to make up a plan, whereas day one they're blindsided and far more likely to make a mistake. You cannot say a Day 2 mass claim would help us and not agree that a Day 1 claim will help us more. The only difference waiting a day will do is give the mafia more time to strategize.

    Once again, the whole thing to balance the fact that we outnumber the mafia 3:1 is the fact that the mafia hold all the information and can make us play on their terms. Reversing this removes their advantage.

    So yeah, I'd love to hear the reason you come up with for why this would hurt us.

    Now I don't know everyone's role so if anyone considers that it would help more than hurt to claim part of their role, I wouldn't be opposed to it.
    So you're in favor of mass claims when someone calls you out on YOU claiming part of your role and voting you for it, but then you're totally against a mass claim today, but IN THE SAME POST say you're totally fine with people claiming, even though you were totally against it a few punctuation marks before. So which is it?

    A normal or semi-normal game for me and most of the people who play on MTGS means a game where there are only fairly standard roles with vanillas.
    So how in the hell would a mass claim help? The whole point of mass claiming doesn't work when the mafia can just claim vanilla, it only works when everyone has a role and the mafia need to invent one.

    And just based on my role I think it would be better if the claiming is kept to a minimum.
    Again, so you support claiming all the time on page 1, but now on page 2 you're totally against it except if someone else is claiming and then you're totally fine with it?

    Are you mafia or just that completely inept at being town?

    About point 2: No idea why people were voting him. I assumed that bur voted him because his last post was scummy in his reasons, but cantrip is baffling me. I just wanted to hear his thoughts on that matter so I can decide if it's more likely they come from town or scum.
    So wait, so why are you hounding rezombied for him not caring why two people ON PAGE ONE OF DAY ONE are voting for him without any explanation at all? Why should he care about this, and why are you acting like this is suspicious?

    Vote vezokpiraka. Seriously, this whole suspicion train against rezombied needs to be thoroughly scrutinized. Why the hell would anyone give a crap about two people randomly voting for him/her on the first page of the first day? I would have given the exact same response, because I wouldn't give a damn, they voted without any explanation at all, who cares? But now people are actually acting like it's this bewildering thing that he answered that he didn't care? No, that's dumb, and the suspicion-mongering is something we definitely need to all take note of.

    Quote from Grapefruit21 »
    @Highroller I think cantrips puzzle is pretty straightforward.
    Congratulations, would you care to tell us what it means?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Banned Mafia - Day 1 - Carde Diem
    So, I have four questions:

    1. vezokpiraka makes an entire post (#34) talking about how he always advocates things like claiming and mass claims when he's voted against by rezombied for claiming stuff after Grapefruit advised against claiming, BUT on post #70 he's saying he's totally opposed to a massclaim, but also that he's completely ok with anyone else claiming if they think it's for the greater good of the game, but also that it’s not in the greater good of the game.

    What the hell? We're supposed to pretend that makes sense and doesn't contradict itself multiple times?

    Quote from vezokpiraka »
    I have a question for you rezombied: Why do you think people are voting you right now?
    Why do YOU think people were voting for him?

    There were two people voting for him. Bur posted literally nothing with regards to an explanation, and Cantripmancer posted something completely baffling.

    3. Seriously, read Cantrip's post:

    SOL seeking octogenarians or mature alpha gorillas for collaboration.
    Must have pure motives and love grandfather clocks.
    Respond here; I'll find you in your dreams.
    Chromatics may apply, but YMMV.

    I mean, is this a code that I'm the only one who didn't decipher, or did all of you just skim by it? No one else is gonna comment on this? We’re all just going to pretend that’s normal?

    While I agree with all of highroller's point for a normal or semi-normal game, I am totally opposed to a massclaim this game.


    What is “normal” and “semi-normal”? A normal game of mafia to me is just vanilla towns and mafia. A semi-normal game to me is vanilla towns, an inspector, a doctor, and mafia, maybe a serial killer.

    How would it be beneficial to mass claim on that? The whole point of a mass claim is it forces the mafia to make up roles on the fly which would then later be scrutinized.

    The logical course of action would be for us to go down or up the list and have each person claim. Either start at 1 and go to 12, with each numbered player claiming, or go from 12 up to 1. Either one.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Banned Mafia - Day 1 - Carde Diem
    Quote from vezokpiraka »
    While I agree with all of highroller's point for a normal or semi-normal game, I am totally opposed to a massclaim this game. Wuffles has spent way too long designing this game and a mass-claim would hinder the town mostly.
    How would it hinder the town?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Banned Mafia - Day 1 - Carde Diem
    Quote from Grapefruit21 »

    This is just completely foreign to me. Why does a random lynching order set at the start of the game help at all?
    Ok, so, I actually went back and looked this up, because I read it in an article, but upon reading the article's linked source, it turns out this was based on a variation of mafia that does not include nightkills, which I've not heard of. Apparently neither did the author of the article, as they erroneously thought the source was talking about normal mafia as well. Weird.

    So yeah, the argument was that the town easily outnumber the mafia, so the odds of the last people being town are much higher. But this completely gets thrown out the window with nightkills. So rescinded.

    That said I suspect you're right about two and the standard consensus is too anti claim. Especially in heavy PR games like this. I'm not in favor of a D1 mass claim here (or almost ever), but I think D3 and sometimes D2 claims are usually correct.
    I have no understanding of the resistance towards a day one claim in a game in which everyone has a role.

    Once again, the mafia's great advantage is that they know each other and the town does not know who they are. Therefore, they control the flow of information. Mafia at its heart is entirely about a single question, "Who are the mafia?" The towns need to figure out the answer, the mafia need to keep the townsfolk from figuring out who they are. It is therefore entirely in the mafia's advantage to keep the town as much in the dark as possible.

    A day one claim benefits the town more than anyone. It grants a huge amount of information to the town, and forces the mafia to react and to come up with something with no time to think and no information to work off of. In effect, it flips the game around. Usually the townspeople must play on the mafia's terms, forced to react while the mafia hatches strategies. In a mass claim day one, the mafia are all put on the spot and forced to think of lies, almost always without the ability to coordinate with each other since they can't communicate during the day, and without any information from dead bodies to draw from.

    I don't see why we wouldn't do this, frankly.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Banned Mafia - Day 1 - Carde Diem
    Sorry, I don't like double posting, so was waiting for someone else to reply, then had to go to sleep and haven't been able to post until now because of work.

    I actually have a second ability that activates when I die. I am able to create two goblin corpses to add to the graveyard including my own. They can be any goblin card I want (spoiler warning: at least one of them is definitely going to be Goblin Gardener. Believe in the sausage tree, man. Believe in your dreams!), and are either townie, mafia, or neutral. Again, no idea what this does, but the presence of neutrality indicates there are probably other neutrals in the game.

    Bur: I can't seem to quote your post without something weird happening, but as to "Why did you decide to claim this...?", I pretty much always claim Day 1. I would imagine Axelrod remembers this.

    I don't know why this isn't common practice. The town's advantage is numbers. The Mafia's advantage is that early on they have all of the relevant information, as no one knows who they are, they know who each other are, and therefore they can control the flow of information (hence why the mafia generally have two plays: 1. lurk, or 2. try to have one member take control of the town's discussion). The neutral role's advantage is that no one necessarily expects that they'll be in the game, and/or they have some sort of ability to compensate for their being greatly outnumbered.

    The town have two ways to get rid of the mafia's inherent advantage:

    1. Decide lynching order at the start of the game by random number generator, as the last people are more likely to be town than mafia, but this is easy to screw with, and frankly, takes 100% of the fun out of the game, however much it might make mathematical sense, thereby making it dumb and boring,


    2. Roleclaim early. This generally breaks games unless the mod has put in planning to counter this strategy, and even then it doesn't generally put the town at a disadvantage, it just kind of gets them where they started.

    Quote from Axelrod »
    @Highroller, that Goblin hasn't been recruited, he's been slaughtered. Poor guy is dead. Just what kind of Recruiter are you?
    Yeah, it really doesn't make sense, does it? I interpret it as there's literally no other place to put goblins. Though frankly, I feel it would have made a lot more sense to give me the ability to cast more than one vote or something, though that's probably too imba.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Banned Mafia - Day 1 - Carde Diem
    In seriousness, Unvote: Iso.

    So, if anyone's curious, that Mon's Goblin Raiders is mine. I'm the Goblin Recruiter. I make goblins, and send them to the graveyard. Every day before dawn. That's my ability. Seriously.

    I assume at least one person has an ability somewhere that does something to things in the graveyard, in which case, hey, knock yourself right out with that goblin. There will be another one tomorrow. You're welcome.

    Man, this is awesome. I LOVED when Goblin Recruiter got banned, because it's hilarious that out of all of the cards of Magic, they banned a creature, and on top of all of the myriad of creatures that have been in Magic, it's a GOBLIN that gets banned?! Hysterical. So the fact that I'm this ridiculous goblin is the BEST. You guys can keep your Ancestral Recalls and your Mox Gems. I'm a banned CREATURE, fools, and I'm not even banned because I have ante or conspiracy or some scrub nonsense like that, it's cuz I'm straight up broken!

    Quake in your boots out of fear, n00bs!
    Posted in: Mafia
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