I don't think the purpose of the bannings was to get rid of strategies that would be too good since a deck like dredge isn't usually very difficult to beat if you set out to do so. Rather I think they wanted to craft a format with different decks than what people are used to in old standard or extended formats. Not touching zoo is probably because zoo was typically the most popular strategy (by a significant margin) in old extended events.
Aggressive discard isn't bad either. Scepter of Fugue is a card. Eye makes the plan a little worse, but they still need 16 mana to go eye>ulamog before you can scepter them. Under ordinary circumstances, that isn't super difficult, but presumably their development has been stunted by the scepter.
Okay, so I have a few more suggestions for the 12post matchup. Since most are either mono-green or mono-blue, I thought Persecute might cut it, since mono-green doesn't actually play that many colorless spells, and it's pretty painful for mono-blue too. On the discard plan, if we think an LD package of Spreading Seas, Rain of Tears, and Annex isn't going to cut it, we could try Hypnotic Specter, since it probably wins the game if unanswered since they dump their hands pretty fast, and don't have a ton of ways to interact with a creature. The other route is to just board a card like Stupor to compliment Thoughseize and try to keep them from getting enough velocity to push through permission and card draw. A singleton Haunting Hymn doesn't seem out of the question, so we can have a trump on turn 6 assuming we can keep them under control until then.
my main plan is going to be LD, and hope like hell I have a extirpate in hand lol. I guess you could try a mix of LD and boomerang to keep additional cloupost in their hand to be extracted.
IMO the mono green version is the scariest. I have seen a turn 4 emrakul off of it and someone mentioned that is has the possibility of a turn 3...I don't know how though.
Mono-green seems softer to cliques and thoughtseizes, since it's harder for them to sculpt a hand with protection and harder to play the waiting game. If your disruption can slow them down enough, time stop may be able to nap an emrakul, then you should be golden.
6 mana says no. They can easily cast the aliens before we can get to 6 mana. A lot of us are trying bribery, but without some land hate it is too slow.
Non-emrakul is annoying, but we have a bunch of counterspells, so we don't lose on the spot. I'll use the Mono U 12post thread for example lists to try to beat.
6 before 15 is too tough? For 15 on turn 5 (so if they are on the draw), it takes 3 Cloudpost or clones thereof. 3 lands tap for 5 mana each and 2 tap for one each. That means 3 cloudposts or clones and 2 glimmerpost or better. Granted you can get away with a non-locus land if they have a solemn. I don't think a turn 4 emrakul is possible in most lists. For a turn 6 emrakul (i.e. we are on the draw and don't cryptic a land or some such), they need 2 cloudpost that tap for 6 and 4 other locus lands. If they have 3 cloudpost, they only need 5 loci, so they can have a basic or something. Of course with solemn simulacrum this changes slightly. Of course if they have more numbers of cloudposts, it works as well. That is to say, yeah it works on turn 5, if they have 4 cloudpost, 1 glimmerpost.
I don't see how a turn 4 would work since even, cloudpost t1, cloudpost t2, cloudpost and solemn on t3, glimmerpost on t4 only generates 14 mana.
They also have to find their threat in addition to playing all these lands. More colorless lands means fewer thirst for knowledges and more thirsts means fewer colorless lands and less mana as a consequence. If they're smart or they see the time stop (because you teachings for it most likely), they probably wait until they have counter backup to move their giant guy. But if the Mystical Teachings deck can't have the plan of forcing and winning a counter war, I would worry about the deck. That's not to say that the best strategy for every matchup is to force a counter war but rather if it comes to that, we should win.
Another sideboard approach is to board in some LD. If we're esper or even straight UB, our best options are probably Rain of Tears and Annex. Annex doesn't work actually as well as one might hope since cloudpost looks on the battlefield not that you control, but that also means we can get a land that taps for 3 or whatever, so maybe it's better than expected. If we somehow play red in the deck, then it gets much easier with easy to cast, Stone Rain, harder to cast, but still cheap Molten Rain, Avalanche Riders, Ajani Vengeant if we keep white and who also seems solid for control mirrors. Detrivore may be too slow, but if we can curve an LD them enough, he'll probably win the game. Sowing Salt is also a card. EOT Cryptic a cloudpost, then sowing salt the other one seems decent. Red also gives us Parallectric Feedback, which may not be the way to go, but is an option.
I also wouldn't mind playing a few Boseiju, Who Shelters All in order to guarantee resolution of counters, time stops, or LD whatever route you take and pull double-duty of increasing land count and being a pretty significant trump in control mirrors. Thoughtseize also seems like a fine sideboard card against control and 12post. Wafo had some in his Amsterdam list if memory serves.
EDIT: Forgot about Vendilion Clique, which you guys mentioned before and is pretty obviously awesome against 12post.
Has anyone considered Time Stop either as a one-of maindeck or a few in the board or both. It seems pretty good against Emrakuls and what-not. You can get it with teachings and it's not a blank in general, since you can upkeep it for a quasi-time walk. Gather Specimens is another option for giant monsters, but they still get the trigger if they hardcast, so it may be less good.
^That. Legacy isn't going anywhere. Though, I'd almost say that neither is Extended. If Legacy and Vintage can exist at the same time, I don't see why Modern and Extended can't. I can see Extended as a more official style of play, and Modern a more casual one, like EDH or 2HG.
Vintage isn't exactly a thriving format. There are what maybe a dozen sanctioned vintage tournaments each year? Sure there are proxy tournaments but on a much smaller scale than legacy or standard (the "good" formats in terms of how much they are played).
I read the thread thoroughly before I commented. I just didn't buy your reasoning on why a list with one win-con, which is a creature without haste or evasion and no way to make him worth damage in some other way, is going to be worth anything.
And look at the Pauper decklists on MTGO, Preordain sees much more play than ponder outside of storm decks.
Pauper is a little weird though mostly because there aren't that many efficient shuffle effects. Brainstorm of all cards is legal in pauper and sees very little play in blue-control decks because it is difficult to shuffle and brainstorm gets better the higher power level your cards are.
Is punishing fire even worth it in modern? Towards the end of the Mirrodin-Worldwake extended season, it wasn't in very many decks. If you drop it, you get more slots for other cards (Jace perhaps) and a cleaner mana base that can operate better under a magus. Maybe even swap out for some hierarchs to drop a magus on turn 2.
Also with no equipment or anything, wouldn't you just be better off playing actual blood moon?
They're not staples in almost every deck. They're all used in 1-2 other than wasteland which, yeah, is a staple.
The main problem is that Force of Will not being in the format means that combo decks would be hard to rein in (yes, I'm aware the LED wouldn't be in the format either so the combo decks would be different). Realistically in eternal formats, FoW is the glue that holds the format together. I strongly urge some of the people who want over-extended to go play some legacy on MWS or throw together one of the $200 or less legacy decks and see how it plays. You'll have a much better concept on why over-extended won't work and in all likelihood won't be that much cheaper than Legacy.
What we need is a reprint of the duals, wasteland and FoW to increase availability (not reduce prices, as this most likely won't happen based on some other restricted list reprints). Even the duals reprint isn't that necessary, ravnica duals work reasonably well in most decks that want duals.
Playing storm combo in legacy, I can tell you that I would much rather have me opponent playing force of will rather than counterbalance. You can let them hold the force until you can dig up a duress, but an in-play counterbalance is essentially unbeatable without some sort of specialized side board card.
What exactly are the combo decks you think would dominate the format? Storm variants are reasonable as they have a ton of cantrips and rituals, losing the infernal tutor/LED engine hurts, but potentially getting to play Mind's Desire probably makes up for it. Just outright banning Mind's Desire would probably be enough to keep those decks in check since the only real engine card left is Ad Nauseam. Not that Ad Nauseam is bad by any means, but it is significantly worse when you don't have LEDs, Petals, or cheap tutors, so you don't have to play more than one tendrils.
Belcher is terrible even in legacy (even if it were good somehow without LEDs and Petals, it's so easy to hate out and loses horribly to a counterbalance). Enchantress loses too many engine pieces to be viable. Reanimator loses both of its best reanimation effects even if it keeps the good dumping spells. Grindstone, High Tide, Aluren, Dreadnought, Doomsday, Goblin Welder, Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, and Natural Order all won't exist in overextended.
I'm not really sure which combo decks would dominate the format. Dredge seems pretty strong, but still isn't much better at beating hate than it was back in old extended. Storm would probably be good if it has mind's desire, but even TEPS with mind's desire eventually fell out of favor, so who knows especially with counterbalance in the format. However, the format winds up shaking out, I would be very surprised if the blue decks were not able to hate out whatever combo decks emerge in the format.
Okay in all seriousness, I think Fire and Ice is probably the best in eternal formats, but I don't remember it being as good as feast and famine is now in standard.
So stay with me here; in legacy there is a deck called "Excalibur" that plays Stoneforge mystic, equipment, vendilion clique, jace, and mutavault. Sound familiar? Here's the thing; it also plays a set of spellstutter sprite. Yeah I know it's a different format and everything. Spells are cheaper. Jitte exists, etc. Excalibur even plays green for tarmogoyf and noble hierarch. However, I've been pretty consistently underwhelmed with kitchen finks in every matchup except Jund, where admittedly finks are pretty awesome. I haven't tried it in extended yet, but it could be something to look into.
Just as a little thing; I am almost certain that the maindeck sword of body and mind for Ben Stark is actually a feast and famine and that Wizard's coverage messed it up. In his T8 profile he talks about how feast and famine made stoneforge mystic nuts. Similar thing happened for coverage of GP Yokohama (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpyok10/top8decks). The All-in-Red player has 5 Magus of the Moon in his 75 (4 MD, 1 SB) and the hypergensis player's fungal reaches were fungal behemoths. Wizards has a note about that second one and corrected it.
Mono-green seems softer to cliques and thoughtseizes, since it's harder for them to sculpt a hand with protection and harder to play the waiting game. If your disruption can slow them down enough, time stop may be able to nap an emrakul, then you should be golden.
Non-emrakul is annoying, but we have a bunch of counterspells, so we don't lose on the spot. I'll use the Mono U 12post thread for example lists to try to beat.
6 before 15 is too tough? For 15 on turn 5 (so if they are on the draw), it takes 3 Cloudpost or clones thereof. 3 lands tap for 5 mana each and 2 tap for one each. That means 3 cloudposts or clones and 2 glimmerpost or better. Granted you can get away with a non-locus land if they have a solemn. I don't think a turn 4 emrakul is possible in most lists. For a turn 6 emrakul (i.e. we are on the draw and don't cryptic a land or some such), they need 2 cloudpost that tap for 6 and 4 other locus lands. If they have 3 cloudpost, they only need 5 loci, so they can have a basic or something. Of course with solemn simulacrum this changes slightly. Of course if they have more numbers of cloudposts, it works as well. That is to say, yeah it works on turn 5, if they have 4 cloudpost, 1 glimmerpost.
I don't see how a turn 4 would work since even, cloudpost t1, cloudpost t2, cloudpost and solemn on t3, glimmerpost on t4 only generates 14 mana.
They also have to find their threat in addition to playing all these lands. More colorless lands means fewer thirst for knowledges and more thirsts means fewer colorless lands and less mana as a consequence. If they're smart or they see the time stop (because you teachings for it most likely), they probably wait until they have counter backup to move their giant guy. But if the Mystical Teachings deck can't have the plan of forcing and winning a counter war, I would worry about the deck. That's not to say that the best strategy for every matchup is to force a counter war but rather if it comes to that, we should win.
Another sideboard approach is to board in some LD. If we're esper or even straight UB, our best options are probably Rain of Tears and Annex. Annex doesn't work actually as well as one might hope since cloudpost looks on the battlefield not that you control, but that also means we can get a land that taps for 3 or whatever, so maybe it's better than expected. If we somehow play red in the deck, then it gets much easier with easy to cast, Stone Rain, harder to cast, but still cheap Molten Rain, Avalanche Riders, Ajani Vengeant if we keep white and who also seems solid for control mirrors. Detrivore may be too slow, but if we can curve an LD them enough, he'll probably win the game. Sowing Salt is also a card. EOT Cryptic a cloudpost, then sowing salt the other one seems decent. Red also gives us Parallectric Feedback, which may not be the way to go, but is an option.
I also wouldn't mind playing a few Boseiju, Who Shelters All in order to guarantee resolution of counters, time stops, or LD whatever route you take and pull double-duty of increasing land count and being a pretty significant trump in control mirrors. Thoughtseize also seems like a fine sideboard card against control and 12post. Wafo had some in his Amsterdam list if memory serves.
EDIT: Forgot about Vendilion Clique, which you guys mentioned before and is pretty obviously awesome against 12post.
Vintage isn't exactly a thriving format. There are what maybe a dozen sanctioned vintage tournaments each year? Sure there are proxy tournaments but on a much smaller scale than legacy or standard (the "good" formats in terms of how much they are played).
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Pauper is a little weird though mostly because there aren't that many efficient shuffle effects. Brainstorm of all cards is legal in pauper and sees very little play in blue-control decks because it is difficult to shuffle and brainstorm gets better the higher power level your cards are.
Also with no equipment or anything, wouldn't you just be better off playing actual blood moon?
Playing storm combo in legacy, I can tell you that I would much rather have me opponent playing force of will rather than counterbalance. You can let them hold the force until you can dig up a duress, but an in-play counterbalance is essentially unbeatable without some sort of specialized side board card.
What exactly are the combo decks you think would dominate the format? Storm variants are reasonable as they have a ton of cantrips and rituals, losing the infernal tutor/LED engine hurts, but potentially getting to play Mind's Desire probably makes up for it. Just outright banning Mind's Desire would probably be enough to keep those decks in check since the only real engine card left is Ad Nauseam. Not that Ad Nauseam is bad by any means, but it is significantly worse when you don't have LEDs, Petals, or cheap tutors, so you don't have to play more than one tendrils.
Belcher is terrible even in legacy (even if it were good somehow without LEDs and Petals, it's so easy to hate out and loses horribly to a counterbalance). Enchantress loses too many engine pieces to be viable. Reanimator loses both of its best reanimation effects even if it keeps the good dumping spells. Grindstone, High Tide, Aluren, Dreadnought, Doomsday, Goblin Welder, Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, and Natural Order all won't exist in overextended.
I'm not really sure which combo decks would dominate the format. Dredge seems pretty strong, but still isn't much better at beating hate than it was back in old extended. Storm would probably be good if it has mind's desire, but even TEPS with mind's desire eventually fell out of favor, so who knows especially with counterbalance in the format. However, the format winds up shaking out, I would be very surprised if the blue decks were not able to hate out whatever combo decks emerge in the format.
Okay in all seriousness, I think Fire and Ice is probably the best in eternal formats, but I don't remember it being as good as feast and famine is now in standard.