Thanks for the opinion, and btw my third game draw didn't consisted of those red spells yet it consisted of spitter, artist, ghoul, aristocrat, 2 swamps, mortarpod. Its a sure keeper imo?
And as for the whipflare. Well for me last night I think it just did better then KW, ok so they don't do the same but it not only cleared the board but it won me a game also last night he was down to 12 I had 2 artist spitter and he has three spirits used whipflare and damaged him for 12. As a removal though maybe whipflare is better for me then BSZ because of the meta right now with mage blade.tokens and humans will die to it, tempered steel is long gone so I MB 1 whipflare. And with BSZ you have to have 4 mana for 2 damage plus it also kills your aristocrat legionaire while whipflare doesn't.
Oh yeah does bsz really cancel out counters of messenger? The guy in my 3rd round said it does not. He bsz for 2 so my messenger was 2/1 and told me that he won't trigger his undying again.
Yes, it does. In order to make things simple, the rules are set up so that if a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter are on a creature at the same time, they are just cancelled out and removed entirely, so your Messenger would indeed trigger Undying again. It's another reason I love Fume Spitter, he sets up for multiple Messenger triggers.
However, it's important to note that if your opponent had cast BSZ for 3 and killed your Messenger that way, it would not have come back with Undying. I made this mistake in a game awhile back and a judge said something about the resolution of game state and the Messenger's 0 toughness puts him in the graveyard before the counters are cancelled out.
If I deal combat damage in 2HG with a creature equipped with Sword of War and Peace, which player's hand is used for the damage trigger? Also, I assume only my hand would be used for the healing since it specifies me.
Tap: Add on mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana to only cast creature of the chosen type. That spell can't be countered.
So it does produce black mana. Our decks run 8 blue sources which should be more than enough. It can't be countered, and if you think people are holding out to counter a captain you have no idea how to play against or with a zombie deck. The games I'm losing are the ones I'm not playing Messenger and Crawler. Is Captain nice, yeah he is. He gives great synergey, but if I can get all my Messengers to land and kill them all with a pod I just need 2 attacks from a grave crawler to get through and your dead.
This card is also going to be amazing for Titan decks. Oh what is that a Primeval Titan you can't counter sure I'll take that. So yeah make sure you understand the key cards in a zombie deck and what everything on the card does before you say it's not any good.
Clearly, you didn't even read my post. I did state that it produces black mana for when you call zombies. I'm not saying 8 blue sources aren't enough, I'm saying that this card is diluting your mana pool because it doesn't help to cast some of those blue sources. As for not being countered, if you truly fear counter spells in a zombie deck, you're doing something wrong. Zombies is about playing a number of creatures that are all equally a threat. Some cards are a little better than others, yes, but we don't rely on huge bombs that are going to get mana leaked if we don't play this card. The bottom line is, this card is going to mana screw you more than it'll help. You'll get the same effect and more out of a plain swamp.
@Brandon: Yea, I realize that not everyone runs Obliterators, but some people do. It was just another example of why the card doesn't fit. And calling horror on it just shuts out a lot of your deck.
@Seasons: Good call on Fume Spitter, I can't believe I had forgotten about it. Definitely one of my favorite cards in the deck.
You name zombies, great, you have mana to cast all your black zombies with that a swamp would've done the same thing for, the only zombie card it really affects is Captain. Here's the downfall, it doesn't produce blue mana for Phantasmal Images, it doesn't produce black mana for Obliterator, it doesn't produce black mana for Treacherous Pit-Dweller, and it doesn't produce black mana for all your kill spells. The anti-counter is hardly a plus to the card.
You should be winning by turn 6, this is a win more card if the game has even lasted that long. If you're looking to use it for the last few points of damage, Mortarpod is a far superior choice.
Last i checked, negate and distress were both control cards, not aggro cards.
Late game stall sucks, and card draw helps alleviate that. Card draw is NOT control, it's the BEST thing that you can do in magic, BAR NONE, by ANY deck; aggro, combo, control, doesn't matter.
Drawing more cards is the BEST THING ANY DECK CAN DO IN MAGIC.
The "other" decks you refer to have tempo, like delver or are burying you in card advantage a la lingering souls + flashback, which might just as well be drawing a card.
And last i checked, both ponder and gitaxian probe both draw you a card, one after a potential draw fix. drawing one card 3 times in a game is the very definition of the card advantage we'd like to replicate, but our engine and win cons operate very differently. And they can have 4 more if they want with snapcaster if they're digging for an answer.
Get it now?
And then I remembered why I stopped posting on this forum for 4 months.
Alright, I've finally got some time to post my results from Friday night. I was using my above list, except at the last second I decided to switch Phyrexian Metamorph with Liliana in the board. I had this urge to try her out 1 more time as a sideboard option since I wasn't too sure what I would bring Metamorph in for. I ended up going 3-1, making 4th-8th for some store credit. I'm not going to go over the details of each of my matches, just give my thoughts on how the deck performed really. Here are the records though:
Esper Control 0-2
Grixis Flashback 2-1
Frites 2-1
RDW 2-0
As for the main board, I think it's perfect the way it is. The only thing I would ever change is switching from GftT to Geth's Verdict if a lot more people start playing Delver.
Liliana of the Veil: Friday was the final straw for her. The games I sided her in for, she was actually a hindrance. She's coming out for good until someone can convince me that she is absolutely amazing against a relevant deck that I face.
SoWaP: I am beyond happy with my decision to go out and buy a second one to add to my deck. Again, if I ever got this equipped to a creature of mine I didn't lose the game.
SoFaF: Didn't get a chance to try these out, hopefully I'll see some Zombies next week and be able to test these out fully.
Mortarpod: 2 is definitely the right number, never drew it in multiples and when i did see it I was typically happy.
Some of the other sideboard stuff I didn't see and haven't seen in the past 3 weeks so I'm thinking of removing them for other stuff. I think these are somewhat janky cards, but I want to test out Steel Sabotage and Phyrexian Crusader. Wurmcoil just keeps tearing me a new one when he lands, it's almost an auto scoop. Also, playing against white post-sideboard can be an uphill battle, especially if they respond to your sword equip with Purge or Snag. So I'm willing to give Crusader a chance and see what he can do.
After being out of the game for awhile, I finally have been given the chance to play standard again. I decided to go with zombies and I pretty much copied Parker's list (the modified one with Metamorphs) to get a feel for the deck. After 2 good weeks of results (3-1 for 7th place and 4-0 for 1st), I feel comfortable enough with it to start forming my own opinion on the cards and building the list I want to run. Here it is:
Mortarpod: I found myself hating this card, it was just a huge mana sink to me that cost way too much and took up my actions for an entire turn. However, I couldn't deny the fact that it was winning me games. I decided the thing I didn't like about it was having 3, so I decided to cut it down to 2. Mentally, I'm much more satisfied with it now and we'll see how it goes Friday.
SoWaP: This card is just an absolute beast. I don't think I've lost a game where I resolved and equipped this card to a creature. Going up to 2 was a no-brainer.
Obliterator: This card has some hate circling it, but it wins me games I have no business winning, especially when it gets Cloned. Overall, I'm happy with the numbers as I don't draw into him a lot against decks I don't want to see him, but I can sideboard 1 more in for the decks he's good against.
Geth's Verdict: I'm on the fence about this card. In ways, it's been wonderful, but there isn't a lot of Delver in my current meta, and I think GftT would benefit my list more. If I ever see a surge in Delver lists you can bet I'll be putting it back in.
Liliana of the Veil: I don't like this card, at all. She hasn't won me a single game and it's always been a disappointment to draw into her or see her in my opening 7.
Fume Spitter: I'm in love with this little guy and I can't believe Parker only ran 2. He turns on morbid, he can chump block and then sacrifice to target another creature, he kills mana dorks for days, and he removes +1/+1 counters from messenger to reset undying. Definitely going to a 4-of.
6 clone effects: I see where everyone is coming from with 6 clones being too many. There have been times when it works for me, but more often than not the scenario I see is that I have 3 clones in hand with a Diregraf Ghoul. I really wanted more meat in my main board instead of having to copy opposing creatures, so I moved the Morphs to the side. I may even take them out altogether.
Sever the Bloodline: I couldn't even figure out the purpose of this card, I removed it before the first night I played.
We'll see how this new list holds up tomorrow night.
Seriously, I have been on message boards before but ... when playing Burn in Legacy or Modern, if you are running anything less than 4x Grim Lavamancer it is just wrong. Grim is that good ... he is burn, if you are not running it, ur list is just bad, seriously. Next to Cursed Scroll it is the most commonly countered spell in the deck ... Grim Lavamancer is required, its that simple.
With Stifle coming back do you not fear fetches? I love Grim Lavamancer as much as you, but I worry about bringing out the fetches now that Stifle is popular again, especially with all the people that seem to run blue at Super Games. That and Storm is all I ever seem to encounter in the higher rounds.
The U/R list from SCG uses burn more as removal/finishers, so it's more like Zoo than Burn. I assume it handles combo/CounterTop better thanks to the counters and many 1-drops. Really, counters can make up for all of Burn's problems except for Dredge. That however dilutes kill spells, forcing you to run more permanent sources of damage, which in turn kills virtual card advantage and puts you back in tit-for-tat mode.
Anyway, should we include the U/R tempo build in the new primer or not? I say nay - it should have its own thread. This is really a blue deck with red thrown in only so as to take advantage of Delver. Red would normally be the least interesting splash color for blue in legacy IMO. I'm also surprised it fared so well. Is a 3/2 flyer on t2 powerful enough to give up goyfs, stoneforge mystic or dark confidant? In that case, maybe it's time to revisit Faerie Stompy?
Agreed, I've been toying around with a Blue Fire deck, but even the inclusion of just Brainstorm slows the deck down and actually lowers most of it's MUs, not to mention Snapcaster. If you're going to start adding counters and Delver, it straight up stops becoming burn. You can't even call it Red Blue Deck Wins, you're right in the sense that it essentially becomes more like Zoo.
So, I've got a problem. My computer got a virus and it's pretty much destroyed it until I can get a windows disk to repair my computer. Problem is, my primer section was on there, so I'm going to try and retype it, probably on my iPad, and post it.
Alright guys, I'm fairly close to finishing my section of the primer regarding several different types of burn decks. I'm going to try and post it here tonight to get some feedback as well as showcase some of the different builds to the newer members of this thread.
About 1-land openers, against Landstill you could keep any kind of hand and just win. They don't have any kind of clock and they have way too much dead cards in their deck... But against any other decks I'd prefer mulliganing 1-lander away...
@ ExiledWolf: Sorry to hear that your tournament didn't go so well... You had Flamebreak in your side, was it specifically against zoo, or was it against some other decks too? Also, I want to know your opinion about Keldon Marauders. Did it fare well or was it just a hindrance?
The sideboard was thrown together just kinda last minute. Flamebreak was an open spot so I just put it in there in case I came across Zoo. I might make it Shusher in the future even though Counterbalance isn't a big factor anymore, who knows.
As for Marauders, there wasn't much play time to form an opinion on it. I'd say that its greatest attribute is that it buys you 1-2 turns against a Goyf while still doing damage. Otherwise, I still see it as a terrible offensive weapon.
EDIT: Speaking of blue, how does Goblin Guide do against blue-heavy control decks? Generally control's held back by its mana supply, and regularly run a high land count and many basics to ensure its stability. Guide just about guarantees them their land drops, which could conceivably be a huge problem. Do you generally side out Guide against such control decks?
Goblin guide was great for me against blue. I was a big fan of the early damage and it was always considered a threat and removed so I guess that says something. Also, even if they hit their land drops there are so many non-basics in the format that it just helps our PoP in the end.
Yes, it does. In order to make things simple, the rules are set up so that if a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter are on a creature at the same time, they are just cancelled out and removed entirely, so your Messenger would indeed trigger Undying again. It's another reason I love Fume Spitter, he sets up for multiple Messenger triggers.
However, it's important to note that if your opponent had cast BSZ for 3 and killed your Messenger that way, it would not have come back with Undying. I made this mistake in a game awhile back and a judge said something about the resolution of game state and the Messenger's 0 toughness puts him in the graveyard before the counters are cancelled out.
Clearly, you didn't even read my post. I did state that it produces black mana for when you call zombies. I'm not saying 8 blue sources aren't enough, I'm saying that this card is diluting your mana pool because it doesn't help to cast some of those blue sources. As for not being countered, if you truly fear counter spells in a zombie deck, you're doing something wrong. Zombies is about playing a number of creatures that are all equally a threat. Some cards are a little better than others, yes, but we don't rely on huge bombs that are going to get mana leaked if we don't play this card. The bottom line is, this card is going to mana screw you more than it'll help. You'll get the same effect and more out of a plain swamp.
@Brandon: Yea, I realize that not everyone runs Obliterators, but some people do. It was just another example of why the card doesn't fit. And calling horror on it just shuts out a lot of your deck.
@Seasons: Good call on Fume Spitter, I can't believe I had forgotten about it. Definitely one of my favorite cards in the deck.
No, it's terrible, here's why.
You name zombies, great, you have mana to cast all your black zombies with that a swamp would've done the same thing for, the only zombie card it really affects is Captain. Here's the downfall, it doesn't produce blue mana for Phantasmal Images, it doesn't produce black mana for Obliterator, it doesn't produce black mana for Treacherous Pit-Dweller, and it doesn't produce black mana for all your kill spells. The anti-counter is hardly a plus to the card.
And then I remembered why I stopped posting on this forum for 4 months.
Esper Control 0-2
Grixis Flashback 2-1
Frites 2-1
RDW 2-0
As for the main board, I think it's perfect the way it is. The only thing I would ever change is switching from GftT to Geth's Verdict if a lot more people start playing Delver.
Liliana of the Veil: Friday was the final straw for her. The games I sided her in for, she was actually a hindrance. She's coming out for good until someone can convince me that she is absolutely amazing against a relevant deck that I face.
SoWaP: I am beyond happy with my decision to go out and buy a second one to add to my deck. Again, if I ever got this equipped to a creature of mine I didn't lose the game.
SoFaF: Didn't get a chance to try these out, hopefully I'll see some Zombies next week and be able to test these out fully.
Mortarpod: 2 is definitely the right number, never drew it in multiples and when i did see it I was typically happy.
Some of the other sideboard stuff I didn't see and haven't seen in the past 3 weeks so I'm thinking of removing them for other stuff. I think these are somewhat janky cards, but I want to test out Steel Sabotage and Phyrexian Crusader. Wurmcoil just keeps tearing me a new one when he lands, it's almost an auto scoop. Also, playing against white post-sideboard can be an uphill battle, especially if they respond to your sword equip with Purge or Snag. So I'm willing to give Crusader a chance and see what he can do.
4 Diregraf Captain
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Fume Spitter
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Gravecrawler
4 Phantasmal Image
2 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Go for the Throat
2 Mortarpod
2 Sword of War and Peace
4 Tragic Slip
Lands [22]
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
14 Swamp
2 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Corrosive Gale
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
Mortarpod: I found myself hating this card, it was just a huge mana sink to me that cost way too much and took up my actions for an entire turn. However, I couldn't deny the fact that it was winning me games. I decided the thing I didn't like about it was having 3, so I decided to cut it down to 2. Mentally, I'm much more satisfied with it now and we'll see how it goes Friday.
SoWaP: This card is just an absolute beast. I don't think I've lost a game where I resolved and equipped this card to a creature. Going up to 2 was a no-brainer.
Obliterator: This card has some hate circling it, but it wins me games I have no business winning, especially when it gets Cloned. Overall, I'm happy with the numbers as I don't draw into him a lot against decks I don't want to see him, but I can sideboard 1 more in for the decks he's good against.
Geth's Verdict: I'm on the fence about this card. In ways, it's been wonderful, but there isn't a lot of Delver in my current meta, and I think GftT would benefit my list more. If I ever see a surge in Delver lists you can bet I'll be putting it back in.
Liliana of the Veil: I don't like this card, at all. She hasn't won me a single game and it's always been a disappointment to draw into her or see her in my opening 7.
Fume Spitter: I'm in love with this little guy and I can't believe Parker only ran 2. He turns on morbid, he can chump block and then sacrifice to target another creature, he kills mana dorks for days, and he removes +1/+1 counters from messenger to reset undying. Definitely going to a 4-of.
6 clone effects: I see where everyone is coming from with 6 clones being too many. There have been times when it works for me, but more often than not the scenario I see is that I have 3 clones in hand with a Diregraf Ghoul. I really wanted more meat in my main board instead of having to copy opposing creatures, so I moved the Morphs to the side. I may even take them out altogether.
Sever the Bloodline: I couldn't even figure out the purpose of this card, I removed it before the first night I played.
We'll see how this new list holds up tomorrow night.
With Stifle coming back do you not fear fetches? I love Grim Lavamancer as much as you, but I worry about bringing out the fetches now that Stifle is popular again, especially with all the people that seem to run blue at Super Games. That and Storm is all I ever seem to encounter in the higher rounds.
Agreed, I've been toying around with a Blue Fire deck, but even the inclusion of just Brainstorm slows the deck down and actually lowers most of it's MUs, not to mention Snapcaster. If you're going to start adding counters and Delver, it straight up stops becoming burn. You can't even call it Red Blue Deck Wins, you're right in the sense that it essentially becomes more like Zoo.
The sideboard was thrown together just kinda last minute. Flamebreak was an open spot so I just put it in there in case I came across Zoo. I might make it Shusher in the future even though Counterbalance isn't a big factor anymore, who knows.
As for Marauders, there wasn't much play time to form an opinion on it. I'd say that its greatest attribute is that it buys you 1-2 turns against a Goyf while still doing damage. Otherwise, I still see it as a terrible offensive weapon.
Goblin guide was great for me against blue. I was a big fan of the early damage and it was always considered a threat and removed so I guess that says something. Also, even if they hit their land drops there are so many non-basics in the format that it just helps our PoP in the end.